Fallen from Grace.......explain please

[Photini]

Hi Neal,


I feel funny about answering here, but: In the EO, grace isn't perceived as something that you're either "in or out"...."have or don't have".
Grace is received according to our capacity...or our ability to be able to receive it. When we fill our hearts with junk, there is not much room left. We must spend our time ridding our hearts of the junk that hangs around taking up space, so that we may be filled. That's what penance is. It's not getting brownie points...it's banishing the crud by breaking the bad habits that always make us fall, so that there is ever more room for the grace of God to grow within us. When we start to fall, that grace starts to withdraw.

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi Neal,


I feel funny about answering here, but: In the EO, grace isn't perceived as something that you're either "in or out"...."have or don't have".
Grace is received according to our capacity...or our ability to be able to receive it. When we fill our hearts with junk, there is not much room left. We must spend our time ridding our hearts of the junk that hangs around taking up space, so that we may be filled. That's what penance is. It's not getting brownie points...it's banishing the crud by breaking the bad habits that always make us fall, so that there is ever more room for the grace of God to grow within us. When we start to fall, that grace starts to withdraw.

Good post. Catholics would also agree.

 

[twosid]

Don't you find your way of thinking kind of odd, and contrary to what God would ask of you? What do you call choosing "cutting grass" over serving the Lord? I call it ludicrous. Many protestant friends I know alkways say to me "Well, God knows my heart." It's odd that one would say that to a Catholic like myself, because God does in fact know your heart. He knows that you would rather cut grass than serve him.

You are basically telling God that you would rather work on the "day or rest", which could be considered a breach of one of the commandments, than worship Him on Sunday (which is breaching another commandment).

So unless you have a complelling reason to miss church, why would you - unless you are putting yourself before God. I mean, how long does it take to cut grass anyway. All day?

You can't prove a point by being exaggerative like that. If you were a murderer, it is HIGHLY unlikely that you will ever be a deacon.

But even if someone did repent and become a deacon, why would you compare it to missing Mass. On one hand you have aperson who has repented of his sins. On the other you have someone who has not. What are the similarities?

A basic misunderstanding of what God wants of us drives me nuts.

Lighten up Francis....it was a hypothetical situation.

 

[BAChristian]

Lighten up Francis....it was a hypothetical situation.

Was it?

Or maybe it's just something that you are still kinda dealing with...it's no biggie if you are, my friend...

I was a Sacrament of Reconciliation wreck before I came home...:shrug:...but hey, the good Lord helped me through it.

Now I'm just a wreck...

 

[twosid]

Was it?

Or maybe it's just something that you are still kinda dealing with...it's no biggie if you are, my friend...

haha...it was the best thing I could think of at the moment. I'd rather eat dirt than cut grass but I see plenty of people doing it on Sunday. I've absolutely zero interest in what my yard/car any of that looks like (I have nothing in common with most men....loathe sports etc..)....but my wife does so it gets cut a couple times a year Actually my 13 year old step son does most of the yard stuff as he actually still "enjoys" cutting the grass. I clean the house and do all the laundry, dishes, etc......the whole house with the exception of the 13 year olds bedroom and bathroom. I help my 9 year old daughther with her room but thats coming to an end soon.

 

[Benedicta00]

Twosid,

Do you understand now why it is a sin to miss Mass? It may seem trivial to you but it really breaks the First command in a big way not to mention the their commandment.

I know as a protestants you heard how Catholics break the first commandment because we “worship” Mary and the saints but really, what idolatry is, is choosing to not worship God especially on Sunday- the day he asked to be worshipped on and thinking it's cool to cut grass instead. All that God gives to us and all He asks in return is one hour a week and you mean to tell me, some don’t think they even have to give Him that? That is legalist? If God were going to be legalistic, He’d make us owe Him a heck of a lot more than one hour a week.

When you refuse to go to Mass what you are doing is worshipping a false God in His place because you are putting something else before Him in your life. It is sinful to NOT give God the reverence and adoration and love He so rightfully deserves as the Supreme being. It is nuts to me that Christians think Christ died so we no longer have to give God is due. THAT is truly being god of your own life.

 

[twosid]

Michelle,

I'm getting there but I don't think I'm quite there yet. I was going to try and tell you what I thought you were saying the sin issue was in my own words and then when I started thinking about it I realized I still had issues.....false alarm.

btw the thing about the deacon was just a rant about something I find bizzare.

Let me give you a real life example for me instead of the hypothetical and you tell me what you think. I was once beaten in Istanbul sharing the Gospel with folks and giving out bibles...talking to folks etc. When I got back people at my Church was all of a sudden very different towards me...."Your my hero" that kind of garbage. Kind of like Bill Clinton inviting Tiger Woods to the White House after he won the masters. Of course he had no interest in him before that and I'm glad Mr. Woods refused his invitation. I was so repulsed by it that I didn't go to Church for almost 6 months and it was incredibly difficult to start back...I had to force myself to go again and suffer through it until I liked it again regardless of the people. I simply didn't want to be around a bunch of pretentious people. I've got more I want to ask but lets deal with just this for now. Thanks!

 

[Benedicta00]

Michelle,

I'm getting there but I don't think I'm quite there yet. I was going to try and tell you what I thought you were saying the sin issue was in my own words and then when I started thinking about it I realized I still had issues.....false alarm.

btw the thing about the deacon was just a rant about something I find bizzare.

But why is it bizarre to you? Because the Church as a rule asks for deacons to be married once? Look at the letters of Paul, it isn't that unusual, it’s biblical. The problem is, we now think marriage is to be entered into and out of as if it is nothing. In the Church it is sacred to the point it is a sacrament. In the Church, it is a vocation, to the point where priest can not marry. You must try to understand that our vocation in life, married, single, cleric is our path to holiness Deacons have a share in the divine commission- we are talking about sacredness and I apologize but people mess up their own lives and sometimes the consequence can not be swept away. If this is the rule of the Church and you are divorced, (no such thing as a one sided failed marriage) then this is just the way it is because you married and you divorced. The Church isn’t a big meanie because you now can’t be a deacon. It is for a reason and that reason is biblical.

Let me give you a real life example for me instead of the hypothetical and you tell me what you think. I was once beaten in Istanbul sharing the Gospel with folks and giving out bibles...talking to folks etc. When I got back people at my Church was all of a sudden very different towards me...."Your my hero" that kind of garbage. Kind of like Bill Clinton inviting Tiger Woods to the White House after he won the masters. Of course he had no interest in him before that and I'm glad Mr. Woods refused his invitation. It was so repulsed by it that I didn't go to Church for almost 6 months and it was incredibly difficult to start back...I had to force myself to go again and suffer through it until I liked it again regardless of the people. I simply didn't want to be around a bunch of pretentious people. I've got more I want to ask but lets deal with just this for now. Thanks!

I'm afraid I am not following you? What are you saying? That you don't feel you were in sin? You may not have been. God makes use everything to lead us where he wants us, where we can hear him best calling us. It is Mass that you are obligated to not miss.

 

[artnalex]

Lighten up Francis....it was a hypothetical situation.

Richard,
my name is Arthur, not Francis.

I know you think I was being hard on you, but I really wasn't. I was working with what you gave me.

It's not as if everything you posted was hypothetical, as you stated. You clearly have a problem understanding why Catholics view missing Mass as a grave and mortal sin, that is evident in your posts. Rather than make light of the situation, try to understand why you have these problems - it will do you some good and bring you closer to understand what is expected of us. I have no doubt that you love the Lord, but perhaps the prior post could help you with your lack of understanding as to why Catholics view missing Mass as a mortal sin.

 

[twosid]

But why is it bizarre to you? Because the Church as a rule asks for deacons to be married once? Look at the letters of Paul, it isn't that unusual, it’s biblical. The problem is, we now think marriage is to be entered into and out of as if it is nothing. In the Church it is sacred to the point it is a sacrament. In the Church, it is a vocation, to the point where priest can not marry. You must try to understand that our vocation in life, married, single, cleric is our path to holiness Deacons have a share in the divine commission- we are talking about sacredness and I apologize but people mess up their own lives and sometimes the consequence can not be swept away. If this is the rule of the Church and you are divorced, (no such thing as a one sided failed marriage) then this is just the way it is because you married and you divorced. The Church isn’t a big meanie because you now can’t be a deacon. It is for a reason and that reason is biblical.

I understand that it is biblical. What I was saying is that I can be a pedophile, murderer, etc. etc. etc. THEN "get saved" and I'm deacon material. But if I were in a divorce then I wouldn't be. It is bizzare to me. I'm not talking about me again.....I've never been divorced.

I'm afraid I am not following you? What are you saying? That you don't feel you were in sin? You may not have been. God makes use everything to lead us where he wants us, where we can hear him best calling us. It is Mass that you are obligated to not miss.

I'm saying please compare this to your mortal sin explanation. Ask if you need more information....if I can personalize it then I can understand it better.

 

[artnalex]

I was once beaten in Istanbul sharing the Gospel with folks and giving out bibles...talking to folks etc.

I'm sorry to hear you were beaten. I'm glad you are OK now.

When I got back people at my Church was all of a sudden very different towards me...."Your my hero" that kind of garbage. Kind of like Bill Clinton inviting Tiger Woods to the White House after he won the masters. Of course he had no interest in him before that and I'm glad Mr. Woods refused his invitation. I was so repulsed by it that I didn't go to Church for almost 6 months and it was incredibly difficult to start back...I had to force myself to go again and suffer through it until I liked it again regardless of the people. I simply didn't want to be around a bunch of pretentious people. I've got more I want to ask but lets deal with just this for now. Thanks!

Perhaps people understood your "good deeds" to be a very Christian thing to do. Perhaps they even think you risked your life for the Lord. Why would being applauded for doing something good cause you so much grief? I don't get it. Just move on.

 

[artnalex]

What I was saying is that I can be a pedophile, murderer, etc. etc. etc. THEN "get saved" and I'm deacon material.

This has already been addressed before. You are jumping to conclusions that are not necessarily true. If someone had committed murders, it is not likely that they would be considered deacon material. In fact, it is highly unlikely since it would likely lead to scandal.

But if I were in a divorce then I wouldn't be. It is bizzare to me.

That's because you just aren't getting it. You are comparing apples to oranges, but fail to see it. You are comparing someone who is repenting and asking for God's forgiveness in one scenaroio with another scenario where someone is knowingly and deliberately skipping Mass, and thus placing God behind cutting the grass (or whatever excuse you want to insert). I fail to see the comparison. Perhaps you can elaborate how the two are similar.

 

[twosid]

Just move on.

I did. I said I did in the post about it.

 

[twosid]

This has already been addressed before. You are jumping to conclusions that are not necessarily true. If someone had committed murders, it is not likely that they would be considered deacon material. In fact, it is highly unlikely since it would likely lead to scandal.


That's because you just aren't getting it. You are comparing apples to oranges, but fail to see it. You are comparing someone who is repenting and asking for God's forgiveness in one scenaroio with another scenario where someone is knowingly and deliberately skipping Mass, and thus placing God behind cutting the grass (or whatever excuse you want to insert). I fail to see the comparison. Perhaps you can elaborate how the two are similar.

One had nothing to with the other. I was simply saying that was "another" thing I found to be bizzare. No comparison at all. I'm sorry I've not been clear in that.

 

[BAChristian]

Ya know how I found I was growing complacent in my walk with God? I stopped caring to go to church on Sundays...I started to forget to pray more...etcetera...

Then God woke me up, and I ended up coming home and renewing my dedication to God...THAT'S why it's a sin to not go to Mass -- because we say no to God's gift of Sacramental grace...

It's this simple -- if you feel like you don't want to go to Mass, it's because you're being tempted by Satan, or you're getting complacent in your faith.

Otherwise...you'll want to go...and if you don't want to go, then you need to get on your knees and start prayin'...

If not, you'll end up like me a year ago -- in a mess spiritually. When God disciplined me and some really bad things happened in my life, I realized that it was God telling me to wake up...and put my eyes back on Him...I noticed the silver lining in the bad things...I knew the Holy Spirit was chastising me and discipling me.

...that's when I came home to Rome...

 

[BAChristian]

Twosids

I think this might help you understand how Catholics view sin and its effects in our lives . .

It is an audio recording found on this page
http://www.ewtn.com/series/lamb/episodes.htm

By Scott Hahn where he goes into sin and its effects. It is #11 Last Things First

All of the episodes are absolutely excellent and I think you would beneift greatly from listening to him.

Just listened to it! Thanks for the link! Awesome!

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I think its good to remember that going to Mass on Sunday is 2% of the time in our entire week. That is all God asks, 2%. If we won't give 2%, how much do we love Him?

 

[Benedicta00]

I understand that it is biblical. What I was saying is that I can be a pedophile, murderer, etc. etc. etc. THEN "get saved" and I'm deacon material. But if I were in a divorce then I wouldn't be. It is bizzare to me. I'm not talking about me again.....I've never been divorced.

And as a Protestant, why do you find it bizarre if it is biblical? I thought the bible ranked as THE authority but if you think something is bizarre, it doesn't?

Besides, I don't think if you were a murderer it would be that easy to be a deacon. It is not as simplistic as you are making it sound. The Church also does not allow converts to be a deacon unless they spend enough time in the faith. It is not as easy as you think, it's not like, I just got out of prison, let me join the deaconit, you will be screened just like priest are.

If you become a deacon before you marry, you may not marry at all just like a priest and if your wife dies you may not re marry but if you have small children, you may so the children will have a two parent stable home and someone to help care for them. There is a lot more to this than I think you realize.

I'm saying please compare this to your mortal sin explanation. Ask if you need more information....if I can personalize it then I can understand it better.

If you were a Catholic and this happened to you and you stayed from Mass, you would be very guilty of sin, IMO because think about it. Mass is not about us or the community, it is 100% God centered and you would be refusing Him at Mass. You go to meet the Lord at Mass, you do not go to sing, dance, hoot, holler and have a good time hearing the word being preached at you and socializing with other Christians, you go to worship God in His real presence and to be with Him in a intimate union where he comes to you and binds Himself to you and you are given the sanctifying grace you need.

Each sacrament carries sacramental grace to give you what you need, the strength, the conviction you need to become holy and to avoid sin. You can not do that with out grace and think about how Jesus suffered, you think how you may have suffered requires you to run away from God? In Catholicism you would join that suffering to Christ in a private manner and you would be suffering with Him and then it isn’t you who suffers but Him and then you adore and worship Christ as He suffered for mankind and the focus is off of you and on Him and this is how we grow in love for the Lord.

 

[Benedicta00]

What I was saying is that I can be a pedophile, murderer, etc. etc. etc. THEN "get saved" and I'm deacon material.

PS Twosid, this is another false premise because Catholics don't believe that you "Get Saved" so it renders the bizarre example moot. You are trying to ration all this from a Protestant mind set, trying to understand how our theology works from a Protestant understanding of theology and when you do that, it will drive you crazy, you won't get anything until you erase all that you learned as a Protestant, then you will be able to understand how Catholicism works.

 

[twosid]

And as a Protestant, why do you find it bizarre if it is biblical? I thought the bible ranked as THE authority but if you think something is bizarre, it doesn't?

Besides, I don't think if you were a murderer it would be that easy to be a deacon. It is not as simplistic as you are making it sound. The Church also does not allow converts to be a deacon unless they spend enough time in the faith. It is not as easy as you think, it's not like, I just got out of prison, let me join the deaconit, you will be screened just like priest are.

If you become a deacon before you marry, you may not marry at all just like a priest and if your wife dies you may not re marry but if you have small children, you may so the children will have a two parent stable home and someone to help care for them. There is a lot more to this than I think you realize.

Paul was a murderer and I would say that he held a place higher than a deacon in a baptist Church. This whole issue has become a huge derail....it has nothing to do with any of the thread other than it is something I just don't get.

If you were a Catholic and this happened to you and you stayed from Mass, you would be very guilty of sin, IMO because think about it. Mass is not about us or the community, it is 100% God centered and you would be refusing Him at Mass. You go to meet the Lord at Mass, you do not go to sing, dance, hoot, holler and have a good time hearing the word being preached at you and socializing with other Christians, you go to worship God in His real presence and to be with Him in a intimate union where he comes to you and binds Himself to you and you are given the sanctifying grace you need.

Each sacrament carries sacramental grace to give you what you need, the strength, the conviction you need to become holy and to avoid sin. You can not do that with out grace and think about how Jesus suffered, you think how you may have suffered requires you to run away from God? In Catholicism you would join that suffering to Christ in a private manner and you would be suffering with Him and then it isn’t you who suffers but Him and then you adore and worship Christ as He suffered for mankind and the focus is off of you and on Him and this is how we grow in love for the Lord.

Ok...but aren't I just as guilty not being Catholic? It isn't like Protestants don't know what happens to you spiritually when you don't go to Church.

Let me take a stab at this now and see if I'm getting close.

It's a sin to stay home from Church if it is possible for me to attend. It is a sin because I'm defying God as well as putting something else in the place of God and thus spiritually self destructing. This can have the long term consequence if I embrace the sin enough to cause me to sever my relationship with God completely. How's that?