Fallen from Grace.......explain please

[twosid]

Perhaps if you could describe for us how you percieve sin, what you perceive it to be, etc, it might help us address this issue in a way that makes more sense to you, so it is more easily understood.

Sin is what seperates us from God. God is Holy and cannot be in the presence of sin and so until we are sanctified we cannot be in God's presence. Sin is an act of rebellion against God and is done either in ignorance or full knowledge. It is the breaking of God's laws and commandments and also not doing what we are expected to do and as such omission is a sin as well.

twosid=Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Get it Get it? huh....huh? That means that the payment or the return you get when you sin is death. Spiritual death as well as physical death but physical death is ok as long as the your spirit is ready and not stained with sin because if so then you cannot be in God's presence. Thats kind of a short version. Does that help?

 

[Photini]

Neal, I don't know if this is going to help you at all, but I was skimming through a book of mine that is a short version of the Life of St. Anthony of Egypt, and when reading this paragraph, I thought I would post it here:

"I pray then that we should use every effort to press on toward this life's goal. Let no one look behind him as did Lot's wife, especially since the Lord has said that no one who puts his hand upon the plough and looks back is fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. To look back means to have second thoughts about your undertaking and to become entangled once more in worldly affairs. Do not fear the word 'virtue' as if it were unattainable. Do not think that such an endeavor, which depends on our will, is alien to you or something remote. Man has a natural inclination to this kind of effort, and it is something that awaits only our willingness. Let the Greeks pursue their studies across the seas and go in search of teachers of useless literature in foreign lands. We, however, feel no compulsion to travel across the waves, for the Kingdom of Heaven is to be found everywhere on earth. That is why the Lord says in the Gospel: 'The Kingdom of God is among you (Luke 17:21). The virtue that is within us requires only the human will. For who can doubt that the natural purity of the soul, were it not tainted by filth, would be the source of all virtues? A good Creator must necessarily have made the soul good. If we hesitate, we should hear the words of Joshua, who said, 'Incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel (Joshua 24:33). And John expresses a similar idea about virtue when he says, 'Make his paths straight' (Matt. 3:3). For to have a straight soul means that the blemish of any vices does not stain its original soundness. If it changes its nature, then it is said to have gone astray, but if it preserves its good nature, then that is virtue. The Lord has entrusted our soul to us: Let us keep what has been entrusted to us in the same state as it was in when we received it. No one can put forward as an excuse what is born in him is external to him. Let him who made us recognize his own creation, and let him find his own work as he created it. Our natural adornment is enough for us. You who are human must not disfigure what divine generosity has granted you. To wish to alter the works of God is to desecrate them." ~ St. Anthony of Egypt (+356)

 

[twosid]

"I pray then that we should use every effort to press on toward this life's goal. Let no one look behind him as did Lot's wife, especially since the Lord has said that no one who puts his hand upon the plough and looks back is fit for the Kingdom of Heaven.

The plough verse always has made me feel doomed. I'm much better than I used to be I've still made some really bad choices as a Christian in the last 10 years. I've knowingly and willingly done some pretty bad stuff and struggled with some things much longer than many supposedly truly regenerate people have. I think part of the problem for me was that I have always felt so damned and experienced so much suffering and unhappiness that I was just desperate to grasp at happiness even if I knew it was wrong and just basically said bring the consequences on. So...theres a good chance I have no hope anywhere....time will tell.

 

[Photini]

The plough verse always has made me feel doomed. I'm much better than I used to be I've still made some really bad choices as a Christian in the last 10 years. I've knowingly and willingly done some pretty bad stuff and struggled with some things much longer than many supposedly truly regenerate people have. I think part of the problem for me was that I have always felt so damned and experienced so much suffering and unhappiness that I was just desperate to grasp at happiness even if I knew it was wrong and just basically said bring the consequences on. So...theres a good chance I have no hope anywhere....time will tell.

Now you sound like me talking. It's an up and down journey, this I've come to know from experience. Even after I've found a church home, my journey spiritually has probably become much more difficult....but difficult in a different way than before. I have hope now, and I didn't have that before.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The plough verse always has made me feel doomed. I'm much better than I used to be I've still made some really bad choices as a Christian in the last 10 years. I've knowingly and willingly done some pretty bad stuff and struggled with some things much longer than many supposedly truly regenerate people have. I think part of the problem for me was that I have always felt so damned and experienced so much suffering and unhappiness that I was just desperate to grasp at happiness even if I knew it was wrong and just basically said bring the consequences on. So...theres a good chance I have no hope anywhere....time will tell.

twosid . . I am gong to share something else with you from my experience . . .I will not go into detail here in an open forum, but I will ay this much . .

I know you cannot have done anything that can make you without hope . . I know this just sure as I know this room I am in exists, and I am breathing, and typing here on this keyboard . . .

There is only one sin that can cause you to have no hope anywhere . . only one . . and that is the unforgivable sin . . . you may think you have committed it . . satan may do his best to convince you that you have . . but they are all lies from satan . .

How do I know? Because I came face to face with the unforgiveable sin . . face to face . . I came within fraction of an inch of committing it - fully knowing what it was I would have done . . and just a matter of days after being on the highest mountaintop with God you can imagine. . . Why? Because God put me in the deepest darkest pit you can dare to imagine . .

In coming face to face with it, I saw it, what it was, what I had to do, what I had to say . . and I knew as surely as I know I am in this room typing on this keyboard, that if I did it, there was no turning back . .

I can tell you, as sure as I am sitting in this room typing on this keyboard, you have not done this .. it is not possible you could have done this and be here talking to us. . .

And since that is the ONLY sin that would cause you to have truly lost all hope, you do, most defintely, have hope, all the hope in the world.

You are a creation of God, a special creation. BELOVED of God . . you may not be able to sense His love for you, but He is holding you, carrying you even now . . He is leading you . . He is calling you home. He has not abandoned you, even in the dispair you sometimes feel.

God has not given up on you . . He is holding out His hand to you . . all you have to do is take it, which is what I believe you have been doing by being here talking with us, seeking the truth.

I know I may not have convinced you you do not have to worry about there being no hope . . But I know you have great hope . .

(Jer 29:11)

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

​

twosid, think of the times Jesus stumbled while carrying his cross . . his stumbling, yet getting up and going forward, is our example even when we stumble and fall hard . . . .

Look at Peter who denied Him, not once, but three times . . Look at Jesus' loving way in which He restored Him . .. you are the same to Him.



Peace in Him!

 

[BAChristian]

Matthew 11:29-30 (KJV)
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sin is what seperates us from God. God is Holy and cannot be in the presence of sin and so until we are sanctified we cannot be in God's presence. Sin is an act of rebellion against God and is done either in ignorance or full knowledge. It is the breaking of God's laws and commandments and also not doing what we are expected to do and as such omission is a sin as well.

twosid=Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Get it Get it? huh....huh? That means that the payment or the return you get when you sin is death. Spiritual death as well as physical death but physical death is ok as long as the your spirit is ready and not stained with sin because if so then you cannot be in God's presence. Thats kind of a short version. Does that help?

Maybe you can help me out because I never did understand the Protestant theory. If you know sin separates you from God then why do Protestants for the most part believe they can not lose salvation?

 

[kimber1]

i'll try to tackle that as a former Protestant
as Protestants yes we were taught that we shouldn't sin becuase God doesn't like it BUT that if we confessed with our mouths our belief that was it. we were saved and the seal of God was put upon us and noone could break that seal not even us.

 

[Benedicta00]

The plough verse always has made me feel doomed. I'm much better than I used to be I've still made some really bad choices as a Christian in the last 10 years. I've knowingly and willingly done some pretty bad stuff and struggled with some things much longer than many supposedly truly regenerate people have. I think part of the problem for me was that I have always felt so damned and experienced so much suffering and unhappiness that I was just desperate to grasp at happiness even if I knew it was wrong and just basically said bring the consequences on. So...theres a good chance I have no hope anywhere....time will tell.

And I know how non Catholics and even Catholics who do not know the gift they have feel but the good news is, God gave us two things, Confession and Mass.

When you sin, I do not care what faith you claim to be, in your heart, mind and soul, you know good and well you sinned and it isn’t “under the blood” as easy at you have been taught it is just to ‘believe’ your sin is under the blood. It is human nature that we feel that we must do something to make a mends. What you experience is falling from grace and you know it but in Protestantism, no one tells you this, they tell you the opposite of what you know in your heart is true.

You will never have to suffer again doubt and despair if you put your trust in Christ’s divine mercy and go to confession. When you do, you are restored to grace. The devil will of course tempt you into thinking you did not confess right or you aren’t really forgiven but that is the trusting in mercy part. There is some thing very powerful in hearing the words that the priest speaks to you, “I absolve you in the name of the father son and spirit, go in peace.” You know you have been forgiven.

After confession, you can now receive Christ at Mass which IS Calvary so you can offer to God Christ very sacrifice for sin, we don’t just go to Church to celebrate that God had forgiven us, like Protestants do, we participate in the Mass, we assist as the priesthood of believers and offer our sacrifice with Christ’s to God for our sins, the sins of the world and for intentions.

 

[Benedicta00]

i'll try to tackle that as a former Protestant
as Protestants yes we were taught that we shouldn't sin becuase God doesn't like it BUT that if we confessed with our mouths our belief that was it. we were saved and the seal of God was put upon us and noone could break that seal not even us.

Until you sin again though, right? You see it doesn’t make sense, OSAS is really false.

 

[kimber1]

see that's just it. they're taught (speaking from own expereince) that it doesnt' matter how much you sin after you confess your belief. while jsut because you have the seal it doesn't give you a license to sin that if you do you're still okay.
i'm glad i was delivered from that mindset though.

 

[Benedicta00]

see that's just it. they're taught (speaking from own expereince) that it doesnt' matter how much you sin after you confess your belief. while jsut because you have the seal it doesn't give you a license to sin that if you do you're still okay.
i'm glad i was delivered from that mindset though.

And that may fly with those who are lukewarm. To think you can sin, but you can’t but you can really, must be nice…

 

[kimber1]

it's a vicious circle

 

[Benedicta00]

it's a vicious circle

And it can also be for Catholics because you can slip into the mind set of all you have to do is go to confession. So I really don’t see the differences in the two faiths that much. Anyone can presume God’s mercy and abuse the gift of salvation. He difference is in who is truly repentant and who just don’t really care.

The thing with Catholicism is that people want to think, why do I have to do this or the other, God knows…but it isn’t for God’s benefit, He don’t need you to do anything, He give this to us because of how we human are, we need to confess to another person we need to hear the words that we are forgiven. We need to make a mends if we are going to have peace.

Chesterton said, When confession was done away with, psychotherapy came. Therapy is confession without the absolution. I saw on Dr. Phil a woman who committed adultery three times on her husband write her sins down and put them in a box and give them to Dr. Phil. She called it her sin box and Dr. Phil told her that she would keep paying for them as long as she decided to hang on to the box. She burned the box and said it feels like skin in being burned and she can now be a new person. Wow, I thought, all one has to do is just go to confession and then they can KNOW they are forgiven, they do not have to torture themselves with guilt and go through all of that. We also have penance to make a mends with God and our neighbor. This is a gift from God because He knows what we need to be whole; it isn’t for Him that we do these things.

 

[kimber1]

see where i haven't yet been able to go to confession ( ) i can only imagine how great it must feel to hear those words of absolution. but you're right, in that they are really similar and that's what i don't get. why the Protestant mindset is so dead set against where we don't believe in OSAS.
IMO and this is JUST IMO, when i decided to convert i became WAY more aware of my sins and the conviction was alot more intense because i didn't have that "it's okay you've confessed your belief" belief anymore.

 

[BAChristian]

Awesome posts!!

 

[twosid]

Just to add to what Kim said....As a Protestant once the salvation issue is settled then there is nothing you could do to lose it etc. because if it were possible for you to lose it then that means that you had a part in obtaining it to begin with and of course we know that to be "works." Anyhow...even though you supposedly cannot lose your salvation you still strive to live as God would have you to do in all areas of your life. So you don't live like you want but strive for purity etc. in all areas of your life. Good works are manfested "because" you are saved and not to be saved. In other words people who aren't doing them are looked on with suspicion as to whether they are genuine Christians. The differences in confession would be that we confess directly to God. I've been to counselors in the Church I was attending before all this and basically you just talked about what was going on with you and they hand you a book or a bible study and send you on your way. It was always very discouraging to me.

 

[BAChristian]

...even though you supposedly cannot lose your salvation you still strive to live as God would have you to do in all areas of your life. So you don't live like you want but strive for purity etc. in all areas of your life.

It does, but it doesn't quite work that way, IMO. At the end of the day, OSAS breeds complacency in your faith. We humans have a tendancy to get pretty slack in our faith, if we're not constantly working it out in fear and trembling. That includes having a Church to look out for us and teach us...

If we can get by with just saying that we're saved, and then use the good ole' line, "But if you know you're saved you'll want to do good things", then we'll do it...yet the whole time, we're slowly falling away from God.

Interestingly, I grew up fundamentalist, and would, at the time, consider myself saved, however, I could lose my salvation by backsliding...so I didn't believe in OSAS. But I knew if I didn't have any mortal sin on my soul at death (which would be any sin because I thought all sin was the same no matter what), I would go to heaven, thus, at any given time (provided I asked for forgiveness...), I could reliably state that I was "saved and going to heaven and knew it..."

At the end of the day, except for a few sin distinctions, and the need for penance and actual confession, I'd say my line of thought regarding sin and it's effects on your soul was pretty much in line with Church teaching.

Maybe I was Catholic at my core...

 

[Photini]

....and so until we are sanctified we cannot be in God's presence.

Just curious to ask....what do you believe is sanctification, and how does it take place in our lives?

 

[twosid]

Just curious to ask....what do you believe is sanctification, and how does it take place in our lives?

Santification to me is the process that takes place as we yield to God and submit to His will place ours aside. It is the dying to self (not my will but thy will be done). To me it is a lifelong thing that starts when you become a Christian and is completed after physical death. Thats "my opinion" and may not line up with anyones doctrine perfectly. My belief system at the present time is probably between a few mixed together. Does that answer your question?