Fallen from Grace.......explain please

[twosid]

I'm posting this here because there is more traffic than TAW but I'd like them to comment toooooo please. I'm reading a book (Historical Road of Eastern Orthodoxy) and it addresses this in reference to the early Church. Also, I believe the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are of like mind on this but if not please tell me as well. As a Protestant of course I've always been taught once saved...always saved. I have "always" struggled with this concept as I have always struggled with my "salvation." I also struggle with the concept of "fallen from grace." That being said......here we go. The book talks about how the early Church believed and practiced that were you to commit a bad enough sin (doesn't say what) then you were tossed out of the Church and declared to have lost your salvation. Then....later on...came about the 2'nd chance. This was where you could be repentant/do enough jumping jacks/be on your deathbed...etc. and get a 2'nd chance. Then we fast forward to the "as many chances as you need" which is Protestantism. So have "all" Churches become more liberal as time goes on from the early Church and allowed more and more and more sin to be committed without acting? When would you be declared as having fallen from grace? Why isn't it done now? Obviously Churches everywhere are filled with people who aren't regenerate. Is this why Catholics seem to embrace that you cannot know if you will go to Heaven when you die? If this were the correct interpretation of the scripture and the practice in tradition then if neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox Church follow it now then aren't they out of line with original Church teaching and tradition? The Protestants of course don't do this and seemingly use grace as an excuse for everything. So is everyone relaxing to accomodate more and more sin? Please explain this to me. Thanks.

 

[kimber1]

i don't have an answer for you. i'm jsut interesting in seeing teh discussion when it starts

 

[Benedicta00]

Nothing has changed, only our horror of sin, this is why we do not do the rigorous penance that we once did. It is us, not the Church who have changed. We no longer see sin as the horror the early Christians did.

It is true that penances were harder then and more humiliating. I know that as late as the 50's if you sinned and confessed, your penance would be having to stand outside the Church and confess your sins to those who entered the Church and ask them for forgiveness because whenever we sin, we hurt the body of Christ and that is our Christian brother’s and sisters.

In the early days of the Church, it was believed that you really had to be repentant and you had to show this in order to be received back into the Church. The early Christians had a sense that sin was real, real bad and real, real ugly. W have lost that now.

The penance have changed, they are lenient and I think if they weren't so lenient we would have less sin but the belief is the same and that is when you commit a mortal sin you have fallen from grace and have lost your salvation and have hurt the Christian community. The Church will not pronounce judgement on a soul but only let it know that mortal sin merits hell and if you have committed mortal sin, you have merited hell.

So that is what fallen from grace means and the sacrament of confession is the power given to the apostle to restore you back to grace once again because Christ did not only give them the command to baptize but also to forgive sins. Penance is repairing the damage that sin causes and back then, they really understood how sin hurts us and those around us.

Customs and norms in the Church has changed but the doctrines have not and this is what I believe is the difference in EO, they believe nothing should have changed at all, that we should be the same culture and have the same customs as the first few centuries.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

If the Orthodox don't have a concept of mortal sin, does that mean it developed after the schism in 1054?

 

[marc37]

 

[twosid]

Nothing has changed, only our horror of sin, this is why we do not do the rigorous penance that we once did. It is us, not the Church who have changed. We no longer see sin as the horror the early Christians did.

Ok....but us being mortified by sin doesn't=salvation. Isn't the real issue how God feels about it? So when in God's eyes not man's does a man/woman fall from grace?

 

[marc37]

when you choose to follow the devil

 

[Miss Shelby]

Ok....but us being mortified by sin doesn't=salvation. Isn't the real issue how God feels about it? So when in God's eyes not man's does a man/woman fall from grace?

If they commit a mortal sin with full knowledge that it's a mortal sin, understand how dire the situation is, and do it anyway, technically speaking, their soul is placed in perilous position. They need repentance. But, since we cannot see directly into the heart/brain of another, we cannot say for sure 'such and such has fallen from grace' We can only operate under the Church teaching on the matter, and pray for God's mercy and also that our hearts will always remain soft to the ways of God and that that we understand it is His will that we walk in it.

Michelle

 

[MisterPascal]

Well, not knowing if you're going to Heaven after you die is pretty scriptural. In Matthew 7, we see people who truly in their own minds thought they were "saved" but they were mistaken! And in 1 Cor. 9:27, Paul himself talks about disciplining himself so he is not "disqualified" from the prize of salvation.

But remember, humility before God is going to bring His infinite grace into our hearts, and when we love God, we will love others and remain obedient in faith (Rom. 1:5; 1 John 2:3-6) for "love covers over a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

 

[II Paradox II]

So have "all" Churches become more liberal as time goes on from the early Church and allowed more and more and more sin to be committed without acting?

I'd get ahold of this book if you can http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0815310765/qid=1086279070/sr=8-6/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i6_xgl14/104-5392043-5956753?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

You can't easily find it online, but you can probably get it from the library. The early church had a variety of views, oftentimes more strict than what you see today, though similar (for instance, public confession and penance were popular, as opposed to private confession. In Addition there were huge debates over the status and readmission of heretics and overt sinners in the church between men such as Cyprian, Firmillian, Augustine and groups such as the Donatists)

ken

 

[Benedicta00]

Ok....but us being mortified by sin doesn't=salvation. Isn't the real issue how God feels about it? So when in God's eyes not man's does a man/woman fall from grace?

When they commit a mortal sin. Do you have a good understanding of what makes sin mortal?

 

[twosid]

When they commit a mortal sin. Do you have a good understanding of what makes sin mortal?

No. I understand that if I am Catholic and get up on the day I attend Mass and decide that I'm not going but am going to cut my grass instead then I've committed a mortal sin and if unrepentant and death occurs I go to hell. I find that ludicrous. I can murder 100 people and then become Catholic and all is well but then if I decide I'm not going to Mass one day and don't give a flip then I'm damned?? That is nuts to me. That screams legalism to me so hopefully I am just ignorant and you can help me understand it. Things like that drive me nuts.

Here is an example from the Church I'm a member at but currently not attending http://www.fbcw.org ......to be a deacon you must be of one wife (no divorce) blah blah blah. Now I could have been a murdering pedophile and kill many children after molesting them and be a deacon after "getting saved" but I can't have gotten a divorce and be a deacon. Is Outrage!

A real life example in my Church was a guy who had gotten a divorce because his wife was cheating on him (blblical grounds were there) and met all the other requirements by leaps and bounds. I'm sitting around laughing at this staff member that is saying that he can't be a deacon because of the divorce. We are like saying if they guy had come in on his wife and the other guy and killed them both and done his time in prison etc. he could be a deacon and have a great testimony. Is that INSANE or what?

Anyhow sorry for the rant. Please explain it to me so hopefully I can finally get it. Thank you!

 

[kimber1]

dagnabbit

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to twosid again.


your posts always make me laugh cauase i feel the same frustration i have at times
​

 

[isshinwhat]

I understand that if I am Catholic and get up on the day I attend Mass and decide that I'm not going but am going to cut my grass instead then I've committed a mortal sin...

No, it is a grave sin. No one but God would know if it was mortal or not. Do you understand the root of why it is considered soooo grave?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Theresa]

No, it is a grave sin. No one but God would know if it was mortal or not. Do you understand the root of why it is considered soooo grave?

-Part of the reason why it's so grave (though I hope issinwhat will explain it thoroughly) is because it is an explicit rejection of God's grace and an unwillingness to co-operate with it which leads to further rebellions, rejections and other things. Ask me, I know all about it.

 

[kimber1]

i think too because it's where we're to be spiritually fed and to keep from that would stunt our spiritual growth thus cause us to easier fall into other sins. i think i got that right. i'm sure someone can correct me if i'm wrong

 

[thereselittleflower]

No. I understand that if I am Catholic and get up on the day I attend Mass and decide that I'm not going but am going to cut my grass instead then I've committed a mortal sin and if unrepentant and death occurs I go to hell. I find that ludicrous. I can murder 100 people and then become Catholic and all is well but then if I decide I'm not going to Mass one day and don't give a flip then I'm damned?? That is nuts to me. That screams legalism to me so hopefully I am just ignorant and you can help me understand it. Things like that drive me nuts.

Hi towsid.

If there is anything I still struggle with it is this one. But I don't really struggle with it, I just find that it causes me to realize my concept of mortal sin is not as clear as I would wish it to be.

What you have described above is too simplistic . . we tend to want to make things very simplistic so that they are easier to grasp. The more black and whte they are, the easier they are to discern and understand.

But this is not a black and white issue . . it is not simply a matter of "if I decide not to go and then die, I am damned to hell."

Mortal Sin requires various elements to be there . . it has to be serious, one has to know it is a mortal sin, and one has to commit it freely, willingly.

We know missing Mass is serious, for the Church teaches us that it is . . so we know that if we don't go, it is a serious matter . .

But the other two are more nebulous. Because "knowing" and "free will" are more subjective, it is an error to take the simplistic view that just because one chose not to go they are doomed to hell if they do not repent first.

The other 2 elements have to be present as well. And this is where you can't say you would go to hell or someone else would go to hell, because theses are matters of the heart which only God knows and can see, and thus only God can judge.

The fact that one chooses to miss Mass is a serious matter is enough for the Church to be concerned that the other 2 elements might also be there and thus require that it be repented of before receiving the Sacrament of the Eucharist again . . It is for our good and well being that the Church does this.

Personally, I still struggle with the idea that it is even a serious matter . . but I have learned too much in the last few years to trust my doubts in this matter and instead submit myself to what the Church teaches. I believe this interior struggle I have is a direct result of the indoctrination I received over 30 years as a protestant in individualism . . and that it is not necessary to go to Church even though we are commanded in the scripture not to foresake the assembly of the saints . . I didn't understand that this meant regular frequent assembly in the Early Church . .

It will take many years to undo some of the effects of the indoctrination I received these last 30 years.


So no, just because someone chooses not to go to Mass it does not automatically mean they are going to hell if they die first. But the risk that this could happen is greatly increased . . only God knows the true state of their heart, whether it was done in full knowledge that it was a mortal sin and/or fully with free will . . .


Does that help?

Here is an example from the Church I'm a member at but currently not attending http://www.fbcw.org ......to be a deacon you must be of one wife (no divorce) blah blah blah. Now I could have been a murdering pedophile and kill many children after molesting them and be a deacon after "getting saved" but I can't have gotten a divorce and be a deacon. Is Outrage!

A real life example in my Church was a guy who had gotten a divorce because his wife was cheating on him (blblical grounds were there) and met all the other requirements by leaps and bounds. I'm sitting around laughing at this staff member that is saying that he can't be a deacon because of the divorce. We are like saying if they guy had come in on his wife and the other guy and killed them both and done his time in prison etc. he could be a deacon and have a great testimony. Is that INSANE or what? [/qutoe]

Yes, it is insane. . . . wow. . . but your old church is not alone in such things within the fractured and diversified protestantism of today.

Anyhow sorry for the rant. Please explain it to me so hopefully I can finally get it. Thank you!

I hope what I posted above helped!


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Twosids

I think this might help you understand how Catholics view sin and its effects in our lives . .

It is an audio recording found on this page
http://www.ewtn.com/series/lamb/episodes.htm

By Scott Hahn where he goes into sin and its effects. It is #11 Last Things First

All of the episodes are absolutely excellent and I think you would beneift greatly from listening to him.



Peace in Him!

 

[Benedicta00]

Twsoid,


We say that the sin if it is indeed mortal, all three criteria is there that you lose sanctifying grace and the sin merits hell.

If you have no divine life in you, and you have merited hell, then you go. This is what we teach; God is the one who judges the soul and truly knows if it is in a state of unrepentant sin or not. If the person is, then God does not send them anywhere, they go willingly because to be in a state of unrepentant sin is to have no love of God at all in your soul, you will not want to be with God, you will want to be in hell.

As crazy as it sounds to us because although we are not perfected, we do love God and are basically decent people because we do have to a certain degree of the love of God in us so it is hard for us to imagine souls who don’t but they have them out there, I guess, who are evil. We can’t ration evil because we aren’t that way.

What you are not understanding is it is all about growing in perfect love of God. As Paul says the greatest of the virtues is love. Faith, hope and love are theological virtues we are incapable of on our own, God must give them to us and when we are born again, we have them but we have to cooperate with grace and grow them into what is called a living faith which will lead to salvation. This is why James says faith with out works is dead. You can have faith but if you do not have hope and love, you will have a dead faith that does not lead to salvation.

Going to Mass and obeying the commandments is loving God and we are commanded to love God with all our hearts, soul, mind, and strength. If we say we love God but we think cutting the grass is more important are we obeying the First commandment? We may love God, but not with all our hearts if we can not even put our needs aside to go and receive Him where we are further sanctified in grace which in turns increases our virtues.

To also say that you think it is legalist to have to go to Mass and not cut your grass is presumption in Christ’s sacrfice, that He suffered so you can do as you please, no more law, is sinning against the virtue of hope. Because you don’t have hope, you have presumption that you can do as you please and still be saved because “Christ paid it all.” That s the error of Protestantism and “faith alone.”

So to break it down Mortal sins kills love and the divine life of God living in us because mortal sin is a act of hate and not love of God. If you die with no love for God then you go to hell because this is what you want. If you have love for God then you will repent as we all do and be reconciled- this is what He died for, but if we have the attitude that you displayed, that we can cut our grass and choose to not place God first we can run the risk of complacency and then that can turn into closing one self off to grace and landing in unrepentant sin and not caring that you are in sin anymore.

I believe a non-Catholic would call it back sliding. The grass being more important to you leads to backsliding or never being able to grow in holiness any further than what you are. And as in anything in life, what your priority is what is most important to you, if salvation isn’t a priority to you, how much do you love God?

When we suffer and make sacrifices and do penance, we are repairing the damage and we are growing in love- this is what it means to love God above all else, this is why we suffer to grow in the love of God because our focus is no longer on self when we accept suffering, we can now focus on God and this is how we can grow in love. It no longer becomes “me” in my suffering we cry to God but “you” in your suffering. The saints knew the value in suffering and that is how they became saints. It detaches us from self-love and causes us to love God. When you grow in perfect love of God, the last thing you would want is to cut your grass when you can go to Mass to worship and be with the Lord on Calvary.

If we die with imperfect love but we do have love of God enough, we go to purgatory where the suffering there will repair our love and perfect it but in purgatory we can not grow in love through suffering, we can only perfect the love we do have. This is what determines our glory in heaven. Those who use their crosses now to grow in love will have more glory, those who do not grow in love but they die in God’s friendship they will perfect the love they do have and be in heaven someday but they will not have the glory they could have.

Mother Angelica sums it up best when she says, “We are all called to be great saints, don’t miss the opportunity.” Anyway, I know that was more information than you asked for but all this ties in with why you can not understand why we it is a sin to miss Mass.

And the deacon thing, it is a rule in the Church. I do not understand your comparison to murders and pedophiles who have repented with your analogy of missing Mass and not caring that you have. How is it any different of a sin? They actually love God more to repent and turn their life around and you say that you have never killed but you don’t love God first in your life and somehow you are better? I don’t understand that. To me that is legalist and sinning against faith by presuming a whole lot, that you don’t have trust in God nor do you have to love Him with ALL of your being because Christ died, you can do as you please like cut your grass instead of going to Mass.

I don’t think you get that it is far greater for God to forgive a murderer and have them actually have to trust that they are forgiven rather than it is to have someone think that Christ died so they can do as they please.

 

[artnalex]

I understand that if I am Catholic and get up on the day I attend Mass and decide that I'm not going but am going to cut my grass instead then I've committed a mortal sin and if unrepentant and death occurs I go to hell. I find that ludicrous.

Don't you find your way of thinking kind of odd, and contrary to what God would ask of you? What do you call choosing "cutting grass" over serving the Lord? I call it ludicrous. Many protestant friends I know alkways say to me "Well, God knows my heart." It's odd that one would say that to a Catholic like myself, because God does in fact know your heart. He knows that you would rather cut grass than serve him.

You are basically telling God that you would rather work on the "day or rest", which could be considered a breach of one of the commandments, than worship Him on Sunday (which is breaching another commandment).

So unless you have a complelling reason to miss church, why would you - unless you are putting yourself before God. I mean, how long does it take to cut grass anyway. All day?

I can murder 100 people and then become Catholic and all is well but then if I decide I'm not going to Mass one day and don't give a flip then I'm damned??

You can't prove a point by being exaggerative like that. If you were a murderer, it is HIGHLY unlikely that you will ever be a deacon.

But even if someone did repent and become a deacon, why would you compare it to missing Mass. On one hand you have aperson who has repented of his sins. On the other you have someone who has not. What are the similarities?

Things like that drive me nuts.

A basic misunderstanding of what God wants of us drives me nuts.