Faith

[James_Lai]

He does intervene. I've found to my real surprise the first times, even with miracles.

What kind of miracle? If you can share about it

 

[James_Lai]

Over and over He's answered my prayers.

Rational ones?

 

[d taylor]

Hello.

All religions require faith. Some scientists can also become dogmatic with strong faith in a method. Many claims are made, but looking at reality, I’d like to ask you to share your thoughts, please.

Faith, or strong conviction seems to sometimes allow people to achieve the seemingly impossible. Strong faith in healing, and an illness is cured. Strong faith in your mission work to succeed despite all kinds of obstacles, and it does. Praying for money to buy food, and somebody from your church gives you a cheque.

So do you think it’s God responding to faith and doing things? If so, why there seems to be a limit to how faith works? Yes, it allows to widen human capabilities, but only in certain areas and to a certain degree. It’s never omni-potent. You can’t pray the sun to stop in the skies tor a day, or for an amputated limb to be regenerated, or for God to teach you how to discover a brand new unknown source of renewable energy, or for you to travel back in time to not commit a grave mistake you did. We know these things are not going to happen, so we won’t even attempt to pray for them. Some people might do, but it won’t always end well. Like an ancient Greek king who believed the gods had given him the gift of flight and jumped off a tower.

Faith shows to me that our consciousness is way more powerful than we are used to thinking. Also it tells me that this world is more complex and amazing that it seems to our limited perception or even to the modern scientific knowledge.

However, no matter how much I read and observe faith, I can’t see an omni-potent God pulling on strings behind the scenes… No matter how much people try to convince me otherwise. I do not reject such possibility, I do want to believe. I have hard time accepting the version of reality presented by Christianity.

Or am I mistaken? Should I lower my expectations?

Faith is not the key, it is the object that faith is placed in. Christianity has a unique object, God who took on human flesh, so he could die and pay the price for sin that man alone could not. Not only did God pay the price but he over came death by His Resurrection. Showing that all who have faith in Him for Eternal Life, they to will be resurrected and live again.

 

[Halbhh]

“He’s hiding unwilling to be detected, and He intervenes”

That's not a quote from me. I'd be happy to answer your question, but you can understand I'd not like to have quotes (even accidentally) attributed to me I've never said. Do you agree on that? If so edit that non quote out or make it clear it's not from me, in any post to me please.

 

[James_Lai]

Faith is not the key, it is the object that faith is placed in. Christianity has a unique object, God who took on human flesh, so he could die and pay the price for sin that man alone could not. Not only did God pay the price but he over came death by His Resurrection. Showing that all who have faith in Him for Eternal Life, they to will be resurrected and live again.

To me it’s not important if the object of faith is unique or not, but if it’s true or not.

The Gospel is theoretical knowledge, I’m talking about living faith that people rely pn day by day.

How does Christian God even interact with people? If it’s the true God, would He operate differently with Christians that He does with peoples of other belief systems or unbelievers?

I don’t see God working any differently among different groups of people. I can’t see Him working much overall, at least comparing to the claims made as to the extent of His interaction and intervention in lives of Christians or any other people

 

[James_Lai]

That's not a quote from me. I'd be happy to answer your question, but you can understand I'd not like to have quotes (even accidentally) attributed to me I've never said. Do you agree on that? If so edit that non quote out or make it clear it's not from me, in any post to me please.

Deleted I didnt word it well. It wasn’t meant to indicate a quote from you

 

[Halbhh]

What kind of miracle? If you can share about it

Once was when I fell off a roof about 20 feet above large rocks , prayed "help!" for 1/2 of a second, and woke up without even a bruise. Since I rarely prayed in those days, that was a meaningful coinciding, which woke me up about what God or the universe might do. But I waited for years and more experience to conclude it was just as it seems -- the response to prayer. Until after I had a lot of those coincidings. Then I began to admit and finally say it to other people it was God doing these.

 

[James_Lai]

Once was when I fell off a roof about 20 feet above large rocks , prayed "help!" for 1/2 of a second, and woke up without even a bruise. Since I rarely prayed in those days, that was a meaningful coinciding, which woke me up about what God or the universe might do. But I waited for years and more experience to conclude it was just as it seems -- the response to prayer. Until after I had a lot of those coincidings. Then I began to admit and finally say it to other people it was God doing these.

Thank you for sharing. Good you are safe! Near misses… Experienced them myself…

 

[Andrewn]

Faith shows to me that our consciousness is way more powerful than we are used to thinking. Also it tells me that this world is more complex and amazing that it seems to our limited perception or even to the modern scientific knowledge. However, no matter how much I read and observe faith, I can’t see an omni-potent God pulling on strings behind the scenes…

What you describe in your post is not faith but rather magical thinking.

Faith is to believe and trust God. That is all and God is all. He may allow for all or some of the manifestations that you described to take place.

But to attempt to do these things on your own, is not of God. And God would rather we use the abilities He has already given to us (mental and physical) for the benefit of humanity.

Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

 

[James_Lai]

What you describe in your post is not faith but rather magical thinking.

Faith is to believe and trust God. That is all and God is all. He may allow for all or some of the manifestations that you described to take place.

But to attempt to do these things on your own, is not of God. And God would rather we use the abilities He has already given to us (mental and physical) for the benefit of humanity.

Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

I understand your point. What you say is theoretical. I’m talking about the practical side, based on Biblical information and claims by churches and believers. If you say things work as they so, then the Bible needs to be dismissed and most Christians are misled in their understanding of human-God interaction.

 

[mmarco]

First of all I would like to point out that I do not pretend to provide a proof of the existence of God, I do not believe that science can provide such proof and, as a believer, I do not need such proof.

The existence and the Goodness of God are the most fundamental truth and I do not think that this truth can be deduced through any form of reasoning, because this would mean believing more in such reasoning than in God.
I believe in God because the certainty of His existence is in me and I feel His Presence, expecially during prayer.

However, I believe that there are solid rational arguments that show that the belief in the existence of an intelligent God is absolutely reasonable, i.e. that this belief has a rational foundation.
In particular, being a physicist, I believe that some of these arguments can be reached through a rational analysis of our scientific knowledge.

The extraordinary success of the laws of physics in predicting sistematically with great accuracy natural phenomena, reveals a fundamental property of the universe, which is its close correspondence with abstract mathematical structures, to the point that abstract mathematical structures are the only means of identifying general principles capable of rendering consistently account of the variety of natural phenomena. Physical reality manifests itself as a realization of some specific abstract mathematical structures (what we call "the laws of physics"); in fact, according to modern science, the building blocks of the universe are not particles, but quantum fields, which are abstract mathematical structures whose properties are abstract mathematical properties. This close correspondence with abstract mathematical structures represents the most fundamental and relevant information that science provides about the nature of the universe and physical reality.

On the other hand, mathematical structures are only constructions of the rational thinking and they can only exist as concepts in a thinking mind that conceives them; this implies that physical reality is not fundamental, but its existence depends on a more fundamental reality that is psychical reality or consciousness: contrary to the basic hypothesis of materialism, consciousness is a more fundamental reality than matter.
The existence of this mathematically structured universe implies existence of a conscious and intelligent God, who sustains the universe into existence by conceiving it as a mathematical model. In other words, the universe is the manifestation of a mathematical theory existing in the mind of a conscious and intelligent God.
Atheism does not account for the most important and fundamental information that science provides on physical reality (i.e. its mathematical modeling) and denies, without any rational argument, the only rational explanation. I think it is unreasonable to expect mathematics to describe a universe so accurately that it is assumed to have existed before mathematics was conceived and independently of the existence of rational thinking, which is the necessary condition for mathematics itself to exist.

There is another argument from physics that I find strongly convincing; according to our scientific knowledges, all chemical and biological processes (including cerebral processes) are caused by the electromagnetic interaction between subatomic particles such as electrons and protons. Quantum mechanics accounts for such interactions, as well as for the properties of subatomic particles. The point is that there is no trace of consciousness, sensations, emotions, etc. in the laws of quantum mechanics (as well as in all the laws of physcis). Consciousness is irreducible to the laws of physics, while all cerebral processes are, which is sufficient to prove that consciousness is irreducible to cerebral processes and that cerebral processes cannot be identified as the cause of consciousness. It should also be considered that brain processes consist of billions of sequences of elementary processes that take place in different points of the brain; if we attributed to these processes the property of consciousness, we would have to associate with the brain billions of different minds and personalities. The basic assumption of materialism (which identifies cerebral processes as the origin of consciousness) is then contradicted by this fundamental scientific result, i.e. the irreducibility of consciousness to cerebral processes. According to the laws of physics we should be unconscious biological robots, with no psychical experiences. The fact that we are conscious and have psychical experiences is the most direct proof that we are not purely material / physical entities, but we have a spiritual element, generally called the soul. And the most fundamental question is: what is the cause of the existence of our soul? Personally I think that the only consistent answer is that the cause of the existence of our soul is a conscious God, i.e. a personal God. In fact, the Cause of existence of consciousness and subjectivity must possess in Himself the essence of consciousness and subjectivity, and therefore He must have necessarily self awareness and therefore He is a personal God. We can identify God as the cause of our soul's existence; in other words, God is the Creator of our soul, and therefore, the Creator of all our psychical abilities, such as the ability to think and to love, which derive from our soul. We can then understand that there is a very intimate relationship between God and us, and I believe that God created our soul out of love. I believe that God is the source of all good, all true love and all true goodness that exists in the world. So, I certainly agree with you that our life has meaning.


In case you are interested, I can provide some ration arguments that specifically supports the christian faith.

 

[eleos1954]

Hello.

All religions require faith. Some scientists can also become dogmatic with strong faith in a method. Many claims are made, but looking at reality, I’d like to ask you to share your thoughts, please.

Faith, or strong conviction seems to sometimes allow people to achieve the seemingly impossible. Strong faith in healing, and an illness is cured. Strong faith in your mission work to succeed despite all kinds of obstacles, and it does. Praying for money to buy food, and somebody from your church gives you a cheque.

So do you think it’s God responding to faith and doing things? If so, why there seems to be a limit to how faith works? Yes, it allows to widen human capabilities, but only in certain areas and to a certain degree. It’s never omni-potent. You can’t pray the sun to stop in the skies tor a day, or for an amputated limb to be regenerated, or for God to teach you how to discover a brand new unknown source of renewable energy, or for you to travel back in time to not commit a grave mistake you did. We know these things are not going to happen, so we won’t even attempt to pray for them. Some people might do, but it won’t always end well. Like an ancient Greek king who believed the gods had given him the gift of flight and jumped off a tower.

Faith shows to me that our consciousness is way more powerful than we are used to thinking. Also it tells me that this world is more complex and amazing that it seems to our limited perception or even to the modern scientific knowledge.

However, no matter how much I read and observe faith, I can’t see an omni-potent God pulling on strings behind the scenes… No matter how much people try to convince me otherwise. I do not reject such possibility, I do want to believe. I have hard time accepting the version of reality presented by Christianity.

Or am I mistaken? Should I lower my expectations?

Faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13)

 

[Halbhh]

Thank you for sharing. Good you are safe! Near misses… Experienced them myself…

A bit past that isn't it. But we don't get such personal evidence before faith or leap of faith, but only after.

 

[d taylor]

To me it’s not important if the object of faith is unique or not, but if it’s true or not.

The Gospel is theoretical knowledge, I’m talking about living faith that people rely pn day by day.

How does Christian God even interact with people? If it’s the true God, would He operate differently with Christians that He does with peoples of other belief systems or unbelievers?

I don’t see God working any differently among different groups of people. I can’t see Him working much overall, at least comparing to the claims made as to the extent of His interaction and intervention in lives of Christians or any other people

In Christianity it (the object of faith) is of the most importance. And as it may not be for the rest of the people of the world as of now, it will be in a future time. But then it will be to late to capitalize on the object of faith.

 

[Andrewn]

I understand your point. What you say is theoretical. I’m talking about the practical side, based on Biblical information and claims by churches and believers. If you say things work as they so, then the Bible needs to be dismissed and most Christians are misled in their understanding of human-God interaction.

I don't think the the Bible needs to be dismissed or that most Christians are misled in their understanding of human-God interaction.

When we are "born again" we become members of Christ's "mystical body." Christ works in the world primarily through the members of his body, that is us. We long to help each other, to serve the poor, the needy, and the oppressed. To spread God's love in the world.

It is not a matter of what God can give to us, it is a matter of what we can give to the world. We are changed from the inside so as to have a yearning to make the world a more just place.

 

[ldonjohn]

I

Hello.

All religions require faith. Some scientists can also become dogmatic with strong faith in a method. Many claims are made, but looking at reality, I’d like to ask you to share your thoughts, please.

Faith, or strong conviction seems to sometimes allow people to achieve the seemingly impossible. Strong faith in healing, and an illness is cured. Strong faith in your mission work to succeed despite all kinds of obstacles, and it does. Praying for money to buy food, and somebody from your church gives you a cheque.

So do you think it’s God responding to faith and doing things? If so, why there seems to be a limit to how faith works? Yes, it allows to widen human capabilities, but only in certain areas and to a certain degree. It’s never omni-potent. You can’t pray the sun to stop in the skies tor a day, or for an amputated limb to be regenerated, or for God to teach you how to discover a brand new unknown source of renewable energy, or for you to travel back in time to not commit a grave mistake you did. We know these things are not going to happen, so we won’t even attempt to pray for them. Some people might do, but it won’t always end well. Like an ancient Greek king who believed the gods had given him the gift of flight and jumped off a tower.

Faith shows to me that our consciousness is way more powerful than we are used to thinking. Also it tells me that this world is more complex and amazing that it seems to our limited perception or even to the modern scientific knowledge.

However, no matter how much I read and observe faith, I can’t see an omni-potent God pulling on strings behind the scenes… No matter how much people try to convince me otherwise. I do not reject such possibility, I do want to believe. I have hard time accepting the version of reality presented by Christianity.

Or am I mistaken? Should I lower my expectations?

Hi James.

If your faith was in the truth found in God's Word then your perspective regarding reality would be entirely different.

The bible tells us that God created a perfect world, but Satan corrupted it, and we now live in that corrupted, fallen, world.

God is in control of this world, and He allows things to happen that we don't always understand. He might be pulling strings behind the scenes or might not be; we don't really know everything.

I'm a Christian and I still don't understand everything about God. We can't see the big picture about life like God can. What we must do is first accept His way of redeeming us back to Himself, believe the Gospel, then live the Christian life, study His word every day, fellowship with other Christians, pray, etc.

God has a plan for everyone, and we can't tell Him what to do. We can pray and ask for healing, job, help with family problems, matters of our country or of the world, or whatever our need might be, but the outcome might not be that which we were hoping for because God might have a different outcome in mind. So, we have to ask Him for help and leave the results up to Him.

I must admit that after over 40 years of being a Christian there is still much I don't understand about the bible or about God, but I don't fret over things I don't understand because I do understand the main message of the bible which is that God became a man so He could suffer a horrible death on a cruel cross to pay the penalty for the sin of every person, a penalty we could not pay. If He had not paid that sin penalty for us then we would have no hope; we would be eternally separated from God in a place the bible calls hell.

Now, you might not believe that hell exists, or that God is real, or that the bible is true, and I understand that because I was that unbeliever many years ago. I can't prove any of that, I just accept it as truth because I have been convinced, by God's Spirit, that the bible is the absolute truth. You might ask "What if you are wrong and the bible is just a myth?" My answer is "If the bible is not true then what did I lose?" "But, if it is true then as a believer, I have eternal life with the creator of the world and everything in it, whereas if I were not a believer, I would face eternal punishment in the place God created for the devil & his angles & all unbelievers."

Today I am at perfect peace with my belief in the truth found in the bible. God's Spirit convinced me of that truth. I have had a few atheists accuse me of making myself believe because I wanted to believe. Well, that is completely wrong. The fact is that for several miserable years I tried, unsuccessfully, to make myself believe, and I could never find a lasting assurance of my belief. I would have a peace about the matter for awhile, but the peace would fade into doubt & fear, and I would find myself looking for answers about the truth of the bible & about God. When I finally realized that "I" could not find a lasting answer to my fears & uncertainty about God, I turned to the God who I did not know existed and He showed me that I was looking in the wrong place for my answer. I was looking at "me" and He showed me that I had to look to Him; I did and within 2 days I had my answer.

John

 

[James_Lai]

Thank you to all for your answers!!!

Leaving this site, good bye!

All the best to you all.