Faith

[James_Lai]

Hello.

All religions require faith. Some scientists can also become dogmatic with strong faith in a method. Many claims are made, but looking at reality, I’d like to ask you to share your thoughts, please.

Faith, or strong conviction seems to sometimes allow people to achieve the seemingly impossible. Strong faith in healing, and an illness is cured. Strong faith in your mission work to succeed despite all kinds of obstacles, and it does. Praying for money to buy food, and somebody from your church gives you a cheque.

So do you think it’s God responding to faith and doing things? If so, why there seems to be a limit to how faith works? Yes, it allows to widen human capabilities, but only in certain areas and to a certain degree. It’s never omni-potent. You can’t pray the sun to stop in the skies tor a day, or for an amputated limb to be regenerated, or for God to teach you how to discover a brand new unknown source of renewable energy, or for you to travel back in time to not commit a grave mistake you did. We know these things are not going to happen, so we won’t even attempt to pray for them. Some people might do, but it won’t always end well. Like an ancient Greek king who believed the gods had given him the gift of flight and jumped off a tower.

Faith shows to me that our consciousness is way more powerful than we are used to thinking. Also it tells me that this world is more complex and amazing that it seems to our limited perception or even to the modern scientific knowledge.

However, no matter how much I read and observe faith, I can’t see an omni-potent God pulling on strings behind the scenes… No matter how much people try to convince me otherwise. I do not reject such possibility, I do want to believe. I have hard time accepting the version of reality presented by Christianity.

Or am I mistaken? Should I lower my expectations?

 

[ripple the car]

Faith is both a gift, and something we exercise. To me, it came down to “who is Christ?” I already knew / understood that there was a vast, amazing, unified Something behind the universe, and all life. Theism wasn’t hard, and monotheism made sense. Figuring out how if at all Christ fit in and was vital became a journey.

 

[James_Lai]

Faith is both a gift, and something we exercise. To me, it came down to “who is Christ?” I already knew / understood that there was a vast, amazing, unified Something behind the universe, and all life. Theism wasn’t hard, and monotheism made sense. Figuring out how if at all Christ fit in and was vital became a journey.

How do you think it’s possible to resolve the problem of claims made by the Bible, churches and Christians in regards to power of faith, and reality? i look at it and see a big disconnect

 

[ripple the car]

How do you think it’s possible to resolve the problem of claims made by the Bible, churches and Christians in regards to power of faith, and reality? i look at it and see a big disconnect

How do you mean? Like, faith vs. the difficulties of life?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @James_Lai, since you are a "seeker", I hope that you won't mind me asking you a couple of questions before I answer the ones that you've asked us (as I believe that your answers to my questions will help me to better understand how to answer your questions ).

My first question is about you. Why did you become a seeker (what drove you to pursue this path at this time), and what are you hoping to discover?

My second question concerns Christianity and God, and some of what you've discovered (your personal thoughts so far) about the Christian faith and about Him, and about the core message of Christianity (which we call "the Gospel") since you've been looking into it.

Here they are (BTW, there are no right or wrong answers in this case as I'm just trying to understand what you've discovered so far),

1. Why the Incarnation? (IOW, why do you think that the Father decided to send His Son into this world to live among us for a time as one of us?/what was His reason(s) for doing so?)

2. Why the Cross? What purpose(s) did it serve, and do you think it was necessary, why/why not? (I've noticed that you've done a lot of comparing other religions to Christianity in some of your posts here at CF, some one of my purposes in asking you this second question was to help you consider some of the ways that Christianity may be unique or different from all other religions, especially at its core)
​

Thanks!

May God bless you as you seek Him

--David

 

[Clare73]

Hello.

All religions require faith. Some scientists can also become dogmatic with strong faith in a method. Many claims are made, but looking at reality, I’d like to ask you to share your thoughts, please.

Faith, or strong conviction seems to sometimes allow people to achieve the seemingly impossible. Strong faith in healing, and an illness is cured. Strong faith in your mission work to succeed despite all kinds of obstacles, and it does. Praying for money to buy food, and somebody from your church gives you a cheque.

So do you think it’s God responding to faith and doing things? If so, why there seems to be a limit to how faith works? Yes, it allows to widen human capabilities, but only in certain areas and to a certain degree. It’s never omni-potent. You can’t pray the sun to stop in the skies tor a day, or for an amputated limb to be regenerated, or for God to teach you how to discover a brand new unknown source of renewable energy, or for you to travel back in time to not commit a grave mistake you did. We know these things are not going to happen, so we won’t even attempt to pray for them. Some people might do, but it won’t always end well. Like an ancient Greek king who believed the gods had given him the gift of flight and jumped off a tower.

Faith shows to me that our consciousness is way more powerful than we are used to thinking. Also it tells me that this world is more complex and amazing that it seems to our limited perception or even to the modern scientific knowledge.

However, no matter how much I read and observe faith, I can’t see an omni-potent God pulling on strings behind the scenes… No matter how much people try to convince me otherwise. I do not reject such possibility, I do want to believe. I have hard time accepting the version of reality presented by Christianity.

Or am I mistaken? Should I lower my expectations?

Faith being about your prayers being answered is not the place to start.

You must first believe that God exists. . .where did matter come from ought to help with that.

Then you must agree that he is God; i.e., he has all the power and he makes all the rules and you are to submit to him.

When you are in agreement with these two things in your mind and heart, you will be able to find the understanding which you seek.

 

[James_Lai]

How do you mean? Like, faith vs. the difficulties of life?

No. I’ll give an example. A very good Christian friend always says, ask God about everything, whatever is on your heart. Because God hears our prayers and grants answers sometimes. But I know full well I can’t pray for God to email me a thesis on a discovery of a new renewable source of energy to stop reliance on coal, oil and gas. It just not going to happen. Or for a billion dollars next morning in my account. I can only ask for things that can happen rationally within the natural laws of this world… That’s the understanding. I can pray for healing of cancer, because it does seldom happen spontaneously due to immune system operation. I can never pray for an amputated limb to regenerate like lizard’s tail, because there are no mechanisms for it to happen biologically. However, if God is omnipotent, then this is a contradiction. As if we equate God with nature.

So there is a big gap, a disconnect between what is claimed and what we know in our hearts to be true and possible.

 

[James_Lai]

Hello @James_Lai, since you are a "seeker", I hope that you won't mind me asking you a couple of questions before I answer the ones that you've asked us (as I believe that your answers to my questions will help me to better understand how to answer your questions ).

My first question is about you. Why did you become a seeker (what drove you to pursue this path at this time), and what are you hoping to discover?

My second question concerns Christianity and God, and some of what you've discovered (your personal thoughts so far) about the Christian faith and about Him, and about the core message of Christianity (which we call "the Gospel") since you've been looking into it.

Here they are (BTW, there are no right or wrong answers in this case as I'm just trying to understand what you've discovered so far),

1. Why the Incarnation? (IOW, why do you think that the Father decided to send His Son into this world to live among us for a time as one of us?/what was His reason(s) for doing so?)

2. Why the Cross? What purpose(s) did it serve, and do you think it was necessary, why/why not? (I've noticed that you've done a lot of comparing other religions to Christianity in some of your posts here at CF, some one of my purposes in asking you this second question was to help you consider some of the ways that Christianity may be unique or different from all other religions, especially at its core)
​

Thanks!

May God bless you as you seek Him

--David

Seeking truth. Desire to understand how this world works beyond what we see. Great curiosity about the life after death. Exists? If so, what it’s like? Is there a judgement? Based on what? If there is God, what He wants from me? Etc etc etc. Nothing special.

God became flesh to be understood by humans. The sacrifice of Jesus to take away the sin of the world. An act of punishing every single sin ever committed. Difference is in many faiths you earn heaven, but in Christianity it’s offered freely.

 

[ripple the car]

That’s the understanding. I can pray for healing of cancer, because it does seldom happen spontaneously due to immune system operation. I can never pray for an amputated limb to regenerate like lizard’s tail, because there are no mechanisms for it to happen biologically. However, if God is omnipotent, then this is a contradiction. As if we equate God with nature.

Ah, ok. You actually can pray for the impossible. He’s wiped security camera footage for me once. That was cool.

Miracles do happen. They’re kind of rare, but they do happen, and you can ask for them, too. Doesn’t mean He’ll do it, but He can, and will, if that’s in our best interests and will help us in our salvation journey.

And you can ask for Him to *guide you to* data that can lead to better solutions for humanity’s fuel needs. You can definitely do that.

 

[James_Lai]

Ah, ok. You actually can pray for the impossible. He’s wiped security camera footage for me once. That was cool.

Miracles do happen. They’re kind of rare, but they do happen, and you can ask for them, too. Doesn’t mean He’ll do it, but He can, and will, if that’s in our best interests and will help us in our salvation journey.

And you can ask for Him to *guide you to* data that can lead to better solutions for humanity’s fuel needs. You can definitely do that.

Wiping security camera is still within the rational… So my question stands. If for example you prayed for diamond rain and it happened, well, I’d reconsider

Guide to data is a weak workaround. It’s exactly what I’m talking about.

We limit God to what is rationally possible to the best of our understanding. We put Him in a box, because we agree that’s where He is…

 

[James_Lai]

Faith being about your prayers being answered is not the place to start.

You must first believe that God exists. . .where did matter come from ought to help with that.

Then you must agree that he is God; i.e. he has all the power and he makes all the rules and you are to submit to him.

When you are in agreement with these two things in your mind and heart, you will be able to find the understanding which you seek.

Yes, first things come first. Moreover, I accept that Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins.

Then I pray, and without a single doubt in my heart expecting it to happen.

Still, God seems to only do things that are rational. Never anything against the laws of nature.

Amputated limb to grow again? No, never. To recover from a flu? Yes.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, first things come first. Moreover, I accept that Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins.

Then I pray, and without a single doubt in my heart expecting it to happen.

That seems a little glib to be the kind of faith presented.

"Accept" needs to be heart trust on the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) for the remission of your sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous.

Still, God seems to only do things that are rational. Never anything against the laws of nature.

You mean miracles?

Are you saying God does not work miracles?

Precisely, what is it that you are seeking here?

Amputated limb to grow again? No, never. A bad flu to end? Yes.

 

[St_Worm2]

Seeking truth. Desire to understand how this world works beyond what we see. Great curiosity about the life after death. Exists? If so, what it’s like? Is there a judgement? Based on what? If there is God, what He wants from me? Etc etc etc. Nothing special.

Those are all both important and (as I believe that you just indicated) common reasons for seeking God I'd like to ask you a little bit more about a couple of your answers (if that's ok with you), starting with why you are (personally) interested in knowing if there is a judgment at the end of this age? You continue:

God became flesh to be understood by humans. Sacrifice of Jesus to take away the sin of the world. An act of punishing every single sin ever committed. Difference is in many faiths you earn heaven, but in Christianity it’s offered freely.

As for God becoming flesh for the express purpose of being "understood by humans", that's an interesting thought that I'd like to discuss with you, but I'd also like to get back to it later (if that's ok?).

That said, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of why the Lord Jesus came here (sin, wrath, atonement, forgiveness, reconciliation, salvation.....) and also one of the big ways that the essence of the Christian faith is different from all others (that we are saved from God, by God, IOW, we are saved by Him alone/by what He did for us, not by anything that 'we' do to earn His favor, mercy and/or forgiveness). So, let me ask you this, how do you see yourself fitting into all of this? Do you, for instance, believe that you are a "sinner", and if so, is this one of the reasons that you are seeking to know more about God/Christianity?

Thanks again

--David

 

[James_Lai]

That seems a little glib to be the kind of faith presented.

"Accept" needs to be heart trust on the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) for the remission of your sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous.
You mean miracles?

Are you saying God does not work miracles?

Precisely, what is it that you are seeking here?

If God is God, why faith is only capable to do what nature does? Prayer has to be for a probable event. You can’t pray for the improbable as you know it’s not going to happen.

If an amputee came up to you and asked you to pray to God for the amputated limb to grow back one day, would you agree to do it?

Or would you rather pray for finances to get advanced technology prosthetics?

The God is equal to nature?

 

[James_Lai]

Those are all both important and (as I believe that you just indicated) common reasons for seeking God I'd like to ask you a little bit more about a couple of your answers (if that's ok with you), starting with why are (personally) interested in knowing if there is a judgment at the end of this age? You continue:

As for God becoming flesh for the express purpose of being "understood by humans", that's an interesting thought that I'd like to discuss with you, but I'd also like to get back to it later (if that's ok?).

That said, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of why the Lord Jesus came here (sin, wrath, atonement, forgiveness, reconciliation, salvation.....) and also one of the big ways that the essence of the Christian faith is different from all others (that we are saved from God, by God, IOW, we are saved by Him alone/by what He did for us, not by anything that 'we' do to earn His favor, mercy and/or forgiveness). So, let me ask you this, how do you see yourself fitting into all of this? Do you, for instance, believe that you are a "sinner", and if so, is this one of the reasons that you are seeking to know more about God/Christianity?

Thanks again

--David

Well, you get kind of hammered on the head by the idea of judgement when you encounter religion. Karma, Qiyamat, the Sansara wheel of rebirth, the White Throne Judgement, life review from the NDE accounts, Anubis weighing your heart against the feather of Maat etc etc

It’s so ingrained in every religion, you just can’t get away from the idea of the final justice. Kind of makes you scared.

Sinner, no. I don’t feel I’m a sinner. I do do some things I shouldn’t, but never in my life I committed anything too bad, and strived to live more or less by the Golden Rule.

However, sometimes they say maybe your own guilt can condemn you in the afterlife… Or they say if there’s a mission for your life in particular and you failed to complete it then you’re done…

 

[Halbhh]

Hello.

All religions require faith. Some scientists can also become dogmatic with strong faith in a method. Many claims are made, but looking at reality, I’d like to ask you to share your thoughts, please.

Faith, or strong conviction seems to sometimes allow people to achieve the seemingly impossible. Strong faith in healing, and an illness is cured. Strong faith in your mission work to succeed despite all kinds of obstacles, and it does. Praying for money to buy food, and somebody from your church gives you a cheque.

So do you think it’s God responding to faith and doing things? If so, why there seems to be a limit to how faith works? Yes, it allows to widen human capabilities, but only in certain areas and to a certain degree. It’s never omni-potent. You can’t pray the sun to stop in the skies tor a day, or for an amputated limb to be regenerated, or for God to teach you how to discover a brand new unknown source of renewable energy, or for you to travel back in time to not commit a grave mistake you did. We know these things are not going to happen, so we won’t even attempt to pray for them. Some people might do, but it won’t always end well. Like an ancient Greek king who believed the gods had given him the gift of flight and jumped off a tower.

Faith shows to me that our consciousness is way more powerful than we are used to thinking. Also it tells me that this world is more complex and amazing that it seems to our limited perception or even to the modern scientific knowledge.

However, no matter how much I read and observe faith, I can’t see an omni-potent God pulling on strings behind the scenes… No matter how much people try to convince me otherwise. I do not reject such possibility, I do want to believe. I have hard time accepting the version of reality presented by Christianity.

Or am I mistaken? Should I lower my expectations?

Since Christ came, we understand that God wants something very valuable to good Life in us -- real trust in Him -- 'faith'

Which is specifically to believe without seeing clear proof of God:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

So, for coming to faith to be possible, there must not be clear evidence of God at this time, today.

Because if conclusive evidence were seen, that would pre-empt the chance to believe without seeing, 'faith'.

So, that's unlike moments in the Bible where clear proof of God was visible to some, for a moment in time, a special event they themselves saw first-hand.

Where, people already having faith, they got proof of God.

Like this one you brought up: "the sun to stop in the skies for a day"

Which happened in Joshua chapter 10 --

12On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”

13So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,

...

But, I can attest to you that after you have faith, of a real kind so that you are following Christ, doing as He said to us to do in life, then you could find out that prayer done in real faith causes outcomes that will confirm to you that faith is justified. You would learn that all Christ said works just as He said.

 

[James_Lai]

Since Christ came, we understand that God wants something very valuable to good Life in us -- real trust in Him -- 'faith'

Which is specifically to believe without seeing clear proof of God:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

So, for coming to faith to be possible, there must not be clear evidence of God at this time, today.

Because if conclusive evidence were seen, that would pre-empt the chance to believe without seeing, 'faith'.

So, that's unlike moments in the Bible where clear proof of God was visible to some, for a moment in time, a special event they themselves saw first-hand.

Where, people already having faith, they got proof of God.

Like this one you brought up: "the sun to stop in the skies for a day"

Which happened in Joshua chapter 10 --

12On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”

13So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,

...

But, I can attest to you that after you have faith, of a real kind so that you are following Christ, doing as He said to us to do in life, then you could find out that prayer done in real faith causes outcomes that will confirm to you that faith is justified. You would learn that all Christ said works just as He said.

I think I understand the mechanics of faith.

What I’m talking about is the practical application of faith.

The sun and the moon can’t stand still (Earth’s rotation would have to stop). We’ll never in our right minds pray for such event, that was my point. If we do, it won’t happen, no matter the amount of faith.

 

[Halbhh]

I think I understand the mechanics of faith.

What I’m talking about is the practical application of faith.

The sun and the moon can’t stand still (Earth’s rotation would have to stop). We’ll never in our right minds pray for such event, that was my point. If we do, it won’t happen, no matter the amount of faith.

Today, if the Earth stopped rotating, God canceling the angular momentum of the Earth and liquids, and all things on Earth, it would be a powerful proof of God.

And that world prove God to many that don't yet have faith, precluding their chance to have faith without seeing proof first.

Which would work against God's stated goal for us.

And invalidate much scripture in the New Testament.

So, being rescued from an illness or accident, even unlikely things -- those are possible to explain away.... and so still allow a chance to come to faith before seeing conclusive proof.

But stopping the Earth or replacing a missing limb, those are clear conclusive evidence that can't be allowed at this time where the goal is for us to have this 'faith--

To believe without seeing.

 

[James_Lai]

Today, if the Earth stopped rotating, God canceling the angular momentum of the Earth and liquids, and all things on Earth, it would be a powerful proof of God.

And that world prove God to many that don't yet have faith, precluding their chance to have faith without seeing proof first.

Which would work against God's stated goal for us.

And invalidate much scripture in the New Testament.

So, being rescued from an illness or accident, even unlikely things -- those are possible to explain away.... and so still allow a chance to come to faith before seeing conclusive proof.

But stopping the Earth or replacing a missing limb, those are clear conclusive evidence that can't be allowed at this time where the goal is for us to have this 'faith--

To believe without seeing.

Then there is no point in praying- God doesn’t intervene, hiding from people behind nature. Effectively, He doesn’t exist. My Christian friends’ encouraging me to “pray for everything” is futile.

 

[Halbhh]

Then there is no point in praying- God doesn’t intervene, hiding from people

He does intervene. I've found to my real surprise the first times, even with miracles.

But, no evidence i can present that is firmly conclusive even to a skeptic, to presence preserve the chance to come to faith.

Over and over He's answered my prayers. But of course I can't prove that to a skeptic, who'd think instead I've just been amazingly lucky...