Faith...

[seekingpurity047]

If we are saved by grace, then faith must be a work, right?

Randy

 

[Godzchild]

Yes belief is a work and it's the only work that is required...

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

No, faith is not a work... at least, faith is not our work. Faith is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9.

I like the way the Belgic Confession explains it:

Article XXII - Our Justification Through Faith in Jesus Christ

We believe that, to attain the true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him. For it must needs follow, either that all things which are requisite to our salvation are not in Jesus Christ, or if all things are in Him, that then those who possess Jesus Christ through faith have complete salvation in Him. Therefore, for any to assert that Christ is not sufficient, but that something more is required besides Him, would be too gross a blasphemy; for hence it would follow that Christ was but half a Savior.

Therefore we justly say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith apart from works. However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself justifies us, for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our righteousness. But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many holy works which He has done for us and in our stead, is our righteousness. And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits, which, when they become ours, are more than sufficient to acquit us of our sins.

Salvation is not our reward for believing. What we believe (and know) is our salvation. A common misconception is that faith is something that we do, a formula we must complete before we may be accepted. But this would make faith a meritorious work, and no grace at all. Faith isn't something we do, but a resting upon what has already been done by Christ. It is not an effort or exercise of our own. And it is not because of faith, but by means of faith that we are justified.

 

[seekingpurity047]

So, faith is the work of God, and he gives it to us freely, when He changes our hearts to love Him. I understand now. Thank you very much!

Randy

 

[jonas3]

So, faith is the work of God, and he gives it to us freely, when He changes our hearts to love Him. I understand now. Thank you very much!

Randy

Yes, faith is absolutely given to a person by God upon regeneration, and the faith that a regenerate person confesses is a belief in the Gospel, which is the belief that Jesus Christ has secured salvation for His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. Faith believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation; and therefore, faith by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. Those who say that faith is a prerequisite for salvation do not believe that the salvific work of Christ was finished on the cross; therefore, they do not believe the true gospel, but another gospel, which is accursed.

This is why ALL people who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) (2Cor 4:3), because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that has meant the conditions for salvation, but that it is the "faith" of the sinner that is required of a person before He is saved (i.e. regenerated). Universal atonement advocates say that only if a man chooses to accept what Christ did for everyone without exception will Christ's sacrifice become effective towards him. That is a damnable false gospel. Jesus Christ is, "...the author and finisher of our faith..." - Heb 12:2, and Jesus Christ laid down His life for His sheep (Jn 10:15), and He gives unto THEM eternal life (Jn 10:28).

-jonas3

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Yes, faith is absolutely given to a person by God upon regeneration, and the faith that a regenerate person confesses is a belief in the Gospel, which is the belief that Jesus Christ has secured salvation for His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. Faith believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation; and therefore, faith by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. Those who say that faith is a prerequisite for salvation do not believe that the salvific work of Christ was finished on the cross; therefore, they do not believe the true gospel, but another gospel, which is accursed.

This is why ALL people who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) (2Cor 4:3), because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that has meant the conditions for salvation, but that it is the "faith" of the sinner that is required of a person before He is saved (i.e. regenerated). Universal atonement advocates say that only if a man chooses to accept what Christ did for everyone without exception will Christ's sacrifice become effective towards him. That is a damnable false gospel. Jesus Christ is, "...the author and finisher of our faith..." - Heb 12:2, and Jesus Christ laid down His life for His sheep (Jn 10:15), and He gives unto THEM eternal life (Jn 10:28).

-jonas3

Hello Jonas,

I agree with you that Arminianism is a grave error, but you seem to believe that one must understand the finer theological teachings of Scripture to be saved. I think that too is a grave error. It makes theological understanding necessary for salvation. I was saved by the Lord and knew Christ for many years before I ever heard of such things about God's sovereignty in salvation. By God's grace, my eyes were opened and I have come to love these truths very much. Salvation is by grace and is a work of the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved.

God saves the ignorant as well as the learned and all Christians hold to some false ideas about God and the Bible. Thankfully our God is a great and gracious God.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

If we are saved by grace, then faith must be a work, right?

Randy

We are saved by the grace of God. We must have a true and active faith, but even that faith that we have is a gift from God. We do actively believe and trust in Christ, but it is God's Spirit working in us both to will and do his good pleasure.

All that we have is of grace even the faith that we have in Christ.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Jon_]

Hello Jonas,

I agree with you that Arminianism is a grave error, but you seem to believe that one must understand the finer theological teachings of Scripture to be saved. I think that too is a grave error. It makes theological understanding necessary for salvation. I was saved by the Lord and knew Christ for many years before I ever heard of such things about God's sovereignty in salvation. By God's grace, my eyes were opened and I have come to love these truths very much. Salvation is by grace and is a work of the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved.

God saves the ignorant as well as the learned and all Christians hold to some false ideas about God and the Bible. Thankfully our God is a great and gracious God.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

I guess the topic really begs the question, "What is salvific faith?" (i.e., the fertile soil, as compared to the seed that falls on the path, among the thorns, or on the rocks).

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[jonas3]

I agree with you that Arminianism is a grave error, but you seem to believe that one must understand the finer theological teachings of Scripture to be saved.

The atonement is not a "finer theological" teaching. The atonement is the very heart of the gospel; it is the very core of Christianity. All regenerated people (i.e. Christians) have a proper understanding of the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ (1Jn 5:20). The PERSON of Jesus Christ is that He is the God-man mediator, and the WORK of Jesus Christ is that He came and died to redeem His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. An “Arminian” believes that his “christ” came and died for all men without exception (including those who end up in hell); thereby, making the sacrifice of Christ to be a weak, meaningless, ineffectual, purposeless work that only makes it possible for an individual to be saved based on their "faith". What is the difference between someone who is saved and someone who is not saved under their view? It is conditional work of the sinner, and not the work of Christ. They glory in man, and not in the grace of God. They are ignorant of the righteousness of Christ revealed in the Scriptures, and they are going about to establish their own righteousness. True faith, which is received upon regeneration, believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation and gives all the glory to God.

I think that too is a grave error. It makes theological understanding necessary for salvation.

I never said or implied that anything was necessary for salvation. In fact, my entire point was to declare that true faith believes that NOTHING is required for salvation; therefore, faith by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. No one is saved by their, "theological understanding"; however, those who are saved absolutely believe and understand the gospel, as it is written, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" – 2Cor 4:3. Those who are lost do not believe the gospel. There are certain things that all regenerate Christians believe. Your accusation is false and hypocritical. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God? If you are consistent, you would have to yes, if you are a hypocrite, you will say no. Now, is believing that Jesus is God necessary for salvation? No. However, do all regenerate people (i.e. Christians) believe that Jesus is God? Yes. Do you see the difference? There is a knowledge that is given to an individual upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit. The knowledge of the gospel (i.e. which includes the atonement!) is apart of this knowledge. As it is written, "For I [the apostle Paul] delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" – 1Cor 15:3. Universal atonement is not how Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

I was saved by the Lord and knew Christ for many years before I ever heard of such things about God's sovereignty in salvation. By God's grace, my eyes were opened and I have come to love these truths very much. Salvation is by grace and is a work of the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved.

Of course salvation is not, "dependent on the theological acumen of the one being saved"! If I believed that, then I would believe in conditional salvation! Before a person is regenerate they can believe that Bugs Bunny is god; however, upon regeneration, they are given a proper understanding of the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ. They will no longer believe that Bugs Bunny is god, but rather they will believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, does the fact that they now believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ mean that their salvation was dependent on them first having believed this truth? No, regeneration precedes faith, and that was my entire point.

God saves the ignorant as well as the learned and all Christians hold to some false ideas about God and the Bible. Thankfully our God is a great and gracious God.

Wait-a-minute, God saves the ignorant every time. Everyone before they are saved is absolutely IGNORANT of the gospel. The truth of the total depravity of man affirms this. Also, you’re wrong in saying that some will still hold to "false ideas about God" after they are saved (i.e. regenerate). Could you give me an example of some "false ideas about God" that a regenerate person might believe?

-jonas

 

[Jon_]

The atonement is not a "finer theological" teaching. The atonement is the very heart of the gospel; it is the very core of Christianity. All regenerated people (i.e. Christians) have a proper understanding of the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ (1Jn 5:20). The PERSON of Jesus Christ is that He is the God-man mediator, and the WORK of Jesus Christ is that He came and died to redeem His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. An “Arminian” believes that his “christ” came and died for all men without exception (including those who end up in hell); thereby, making the sacrifice of Christ to be a weak, meaningless, ineffectual, purposeless work that only makes it possible for an individual to be saved based on their "faith". What is the difference between someone who is saved and someone who is not saved under their view? It is conditional work of the sinner, and not the work of Christ. They glory in man, and not in the grace of God. They are ignorant of the righteousness of Christ revealed in the Scriptures, and they are going about to establish their own righteousness. True faith, which is received upon regeneration, believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation and gives all the glory to God.

This all seems consistent with the Scripture to me:

(John 7:17, 18 AV) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18) He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
​

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Jonas,

Thanks for your reply. It seems that we either misunderstand one another, or we have a serious disagreement. I am not yet sure which one it is, but I think it is likely the later.

Let me write a thing or two to see whether we are on the same page or not. Then you can tell me.

When Paul wrote is epistle to the Church at Rome he was writing to born again People who had heard and received the Gospel. I think we can all agree on that point even without looking at how Paul addresses them, but let’s look at what he says just to be sure.

He says of the Roman Church that “Ye also the called of Jesus Christ” that they are “beloved of God” and “called to be saints.” We could look at other items, but from what Paul’s says of them here in Romans one it is clear that they have heard, and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They have heard and received the Gospel. (Right?)

Now let’s leap forward to Paul’s great section on God’s sovereignty and predestination in Romans chapter 9. If I am understanding you correctly (I hope I am mistaken) then when Paul tells these Roman Christians, who have heard and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ, about God’s predestination and sovereignty in the lives of Esau, Jacob and Pharaoh their response should be a hearty “Amen. Preach it Brother Paul.”

But that is not what they say. Instead Paul knows that these Roman Christians ,who have heard the Gospel and have been baptized into Christ and are a part of the Bride of our Lord, are going to object to what Paul has to say.

Look at what Paul says will be their reaction to this portion of God’s sovereignty in the salvation of sinners. Here is how he expects them to respond to what he has just written “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

Humm!!. Paul expects the Roman Christians, who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which is the ONLY true Gospel) to respond VERY negatively to what he says about God’s sovereignty in His Salvation of and His rejection of sinners. Paul thinks that these Gospel believing Christians will be disturbed by what he is teaching on this subject.

In fact, Paul rebukes them for the response that he knows they are going to have on this subject. Here is his rebuke to the Gospel believing Christians at Rome. Paul says “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

If the Christians at Rome had received the Gospel (which they certainly had) and trusted in Christ alone for salvation (which they had also done) could react in disbelief to Paul’s teaching on this subject, don’t you think it is possible today for Christians who have heard and received the Gospel of Christ to still shrink from these things and lack knowledge and understanding of them? They did so in Rome, why can it not be so now?

I heard the Gospel and trusted in Christ for more than a dozen years before I ever heard any thing close to the doctrines of Grace. (i.e. God’s election and predestination). I responded the way Paul expected the Romans to respond. Thankfully I had a bro-in-law who was kind, gentle and patient with me and discussed these things with me for two full years before I embraced them as my own.

I knew Christ and loved Him and His Church long before I heard of these things and I shrunk in horror from them. When our brothers are in error on this subject, we need to do as do as Paul told Timothy. We need to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine”

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Ps. I agree that Christ atoning work is the heart of the Gospel. I don't think one has to understand God's sovereignty in our coming to Christ to come to christ. The two things are not even remotely similar. God Sovereignly called me to Himself and I did not understand the how of it for better than a decade, yet I knew Christ all that time.

 

[Jon_]

Here's a good, balanced view of the subject at hand.

http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Articles/ArminiansUnsaved_f.htm

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Here's a good, balanced view of the subject at hand.

http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Articles/ArminiansUnsaved_f.htm

Soli Deo Gloria



I read a good bit of the beginning and some in the middle and then the conclusion. What I read was very good, especially the conclusion. To think that one must be a Calvinist to be saved is a part of hyper-Calvinism and not not part of true Calvinism, nor is it biblical. Hyper-Calvinism is a bad thing and has done a WHOLE LOT of damage over the years.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[jonas3]

Thanks for your reply. It seems that we either misunderstand one another, or we have a serious disagreement. I am not yet sure which one it is, but I think it is likely the later.

For starters, if you cannot state that you are in full agreement with my previous post, then I can conclude from this that we have a serious disagreement. Furthermore, having read your current post, I can affirm that we have a serious disagreement.

Let me write a thing or two to see whether we are on the same page or not. Then you can tell me.

When Paul wrote is epistle to the Church at Rome he was writing to born again People who had heard and received the Gospel. I think we can all agree on that point even without looking at how Paul addresses them, but let’s look at what he says just to be sure.

He says of the Roman Church that “Ye also the called of Jesus Christ” that they are “beloved of God” and “called to be saints.” We could look at other items, but from what Paul’s says of them here in Romans one it is clear that they have heard, and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


They have heard and received the Gospel. (Right?)

True Christians (i.e. regenerated individuals) are the ONLY ones who have received the knowledge of the gospel; everyone else is ignorant of the gospel (Mk 16:16, Ro 10:2-4, Ro 11:7, 2Cor 4:3, etc). The fact that Paul addresses his epistle to born-again believers and that they have received the gospel is obvious since ONLY born-again believers have received the Gospel.

Now let’s leap forward to Paul’s great section on God’s sovereignty and predestination in Romans chapter 9. If I am understanding you correctly (I hope I am mistaken) then when Paul tells these Roman Christians, who have heard and received the Gospel of Jesus Christ, about God’s predestination and sovereignty in the lives of Esau, Jacob and Pharaoh their response should be a hearty “Amen. Preach it Brother Paul.”


But that is not what they say. Instead Paul knows that these Roman Christians ,who have heard the Gospel and have been baptized into Christ and are a part of the Bride of our Lord, are going to object to what Paul has to say.

Look at what Paul says will be their reaction to this portion of God’s sovereignty in the salvation of sinners. Here is how he expects them to respond to what he has just written “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

Humm!!. Paul expects the Roman Christians, who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which is the ONLY true Gospel) to respond VERY negatively to what he says about God’s sovereignty in His Salvation of and His rejection of sinners. Paul thinks that these Gospel believing Christians will be disturbed by what he is teaching on this subject.

The apostle Paul is not suggesting in ANYWAY that Christians (i.e. those who are regenerate) would respond by rejecting the sovereignty of God. He is speaking after the manner of men and illustrating exactly how the unregenerate would respond! Do you think he is trying to be approved of men, or God, or do you think he seeks to please men? A Christian would NEVER reply against God and say, “Why does He yet find fault”! This is the sign of an unregenerate person, and not something that the apostle Paul would hear from the “beloved of God”, “called to be Saints”.

In fact, Paul rebukes them for the response that he knows they are going to have on this subject. Here is his rebuke to the Gospel believing Christians at Rome. Paul says “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

Indeed, Paul rebukes the unregenerate reprobates who say that God is not sovereign or that God does not show mercy or wrath to whom He chooses to show mercy or wrath, etc.

If the Christians at Rome had received the Gospel (which they certainly had) and trusted in Christ alone for salvation (which they had also done) could react in disbelief to Paul’s teaching on this subject, don’t you think it is possible today for Christians who have heard and received the Gospel of Christ to still shrink from these things and lack knowledge and understanding of them? They did so in Rome, why can it not be so now?

No, those who, “trusted in Christ alone for salvation” through regeneration could not and would not have respond in disbelief to Paul’s teaching on this subject.

I heard the Gospel and trusted in Christ for more than a dozen years before I ever heard any thing close to the doctrines of Grace. (i.e. God’s election and predestination). I responded the way Paul expected the Romans to respond. Thankfully I had a bro-in-law who was kind, gentle and patient with me and discussed these things with me for two full years before I embraced them as my own.

So what you are suggesting is that those who have been regenerated and given the knowledge of the gospel of Christ can still “shrink” from the truth and respond negatively to the gospel of Christ? Even though they have been given the knowledge of the gospel of Christ upon regeneration they may still actually hate the gospel of Christ?

Christians (i.e. regenerated individuals) detest their former false profession of “Christianity”. They hate the false gospel that they once believed in. They do not look back on their life and say that they were just a little “unlearned”, or not “mature”. They hate the false gospel that they once professed, and they count their former life as “dead works” (Heb 6:1) and “dung” (Php 3:7-9). How then, could they say that they were regenerated when they believe in such blasphemy?

I knew Christ and loved Him and His Church long before I heard of these things and I shrunk in horror from them. When our brothers are in error on this subject, we need to do as do as Paul told Timothy. We need to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine”

So you loved Christ and His Church, which stands upon God’s election and sovereignty, yet you, “shrunk in horror” from the message of God’s sovereignty? How can you say that you formerly loved Christ and His Church if you hated both Him and His Church?

I had asked you in my previous post if you could give me an example of some false beliefs about God that a regenerate person might confess. Obviously, you would say that one of these beliefs is in relation to God’s sovereignty. So you believe that a regenerate person can profess that God is not sovereign and yet believe the gospel? How can this be, since true faith believes and confesses that salvation rest entirely upon the sovereignty of God through grace?

Here is where your notions logically end. If someone doesn’t believe that God is sovereign, then they must believe that God is not sovereign, and if they believe that God is not sovereign, then they must believe in free-will, and if they believe in free-will, then they must believe that they choose to have faith in Christ for salvation, and if they believe that they choose to have faith in Christ for salvation, then they must believe that Christ died for all men without exception, and if they believe that Christ died for all men without exception, then they must believe that it is not the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ towards His people alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, and if they believe that it is not the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ towards His people alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, then have believed upon “another Jesus” and “another gospel”; therefore, they are unregenerate and currently polluted with a hatred of the true and living God of heaven.


A couple final questions,

1. Do you currently believe that you were regenerate when you believed that God is not sovereign?

2. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God?

-jonas

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

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A couple final questions,

1. Do you currently believe that you were regenerate when you believed that God is not sovereign?

2. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God?

-jonas

Hello Jonas,

Yes we are. What you express is not historic Calvinism. I have greatly rejoiced at coming to the truth of God’s absolute sovereignty. My knowledge and understanding increased dramatically with that understanding.


Yes there was a time when I did not understand the absolute sovereignty of God and yes even lacking that understanding I knew that I was saved because I trusted in Christ alone for my salvation.


It is obvious that we understand Paul in Romans 9 very differently. I believe it is as it appears. Paul is writing to believers he tells them what he does in Romans 9 and then he says to the same believers “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will.” The “Thou” is the same people that he addresses in Romans 1 when he says. “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” That is whom the letter is written to. It is not written to unbelievers. The “Thou” here and “all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints” are the exact same people.


You have to force (eisegete) your views onto the text to get what you get from it. What I say is the natural flow of the book of Romans.


From what I have read of you so far, I think you present a fine example of what has historically been called hyper-Calvinism. I find such teaching to be unbiblical and destructive to the witness of the Church of Jesus Christ.


If you like you can read what my take is on Romans 9 here. Here you can read how I believe my Grandfather was saved.


I am sure we will get to know each other better as time goes on. I also hope others (Reformed/Calvinists) here will read our separate posts and let us know their thoughts as well.


Have a good day.


Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[jonas3]

Hello Jonas,

Yes we are. What you express is not historic Calvinism. I have greatly rejoiced at coming to the truth of God’s absolute sovereignty. My knowledge and understanding increased dramatically with that understanding.


Yes there was a time when I did not understand the absolute sovereignty of God and yes even lacking that understanding I knew that I was saved because I trusted in Christ alone for my salvation.


It is obvious that we understand Paul in Romans 9 very differently. I believe it is as it appears. Paul is writing to believers he tells them what he does in Romans 9 and then he says to the same believers “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will.” The “Thou” is the same people that he addresses in Romans 1 when he says. “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” That is whom the letter is written to. It is not written to unbelievers. The “Thou” here and “all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints” are the exact same people.


You have to force (eisegete) your views onto the text to get what you get from it. What I say is the natural flow of the book of Romans.


From what I have read of you so far, I think you present a fine example of what has historically been called hyper-Calvinism. I find such teaching to be unbiblical and destructive to the witness of the Church of Jesus Christ.


If you like you can read what my take is on Romans 9 here. Here you can read how I believe my Grandfather was saved.


I am sure we will get to know each other better as time goes on. I also hope others (Reformed/Calvinists) here we read our separate posts and let us know their thoughts as well.


Have a good day.


Coram Deo,
Kenith

Since you affirm by your previous comments, the comments above, and your writings in the links that you posted, that you believe that a regenerate person can believe in an false idol-god who cannot save (Isa 45:20), and that a regenerate person can believe in "another Jesus" and "another gospel"; thereby, calling Jesus Christ a liar when He said,

Mt 7:17-20, (KJV)
"17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

I must tell you, for the sake of your soul, that you are an unregenerate false professor of Christianity. I say this out of love, and not hatred. This "christ" that you believe in is a false idol god who cannot save; and therefore, you remain dead in your sins. I am not saying that you are doomed for hell, since the sovereign God of the universe may cause you to repent and believe the gospel; however, what I am saying is that you are currently unregenerate, and will remain so unless God causes you to be otherwise.

I am sure that we will get to know each other better; however, not as brethren, save God regenerates you and gives you a belief of the truth.

-jonas

PS: Look at the beginning of Romans 9 to see who Paul is talking about... Also, take a look at what Paul said in Romans 9:2. Also, I encourage you to read the entire chapter.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I must tell you, for the sake of your soul, that you are an unregenerate false professor of Christianity. I say this out of love, and not hatred. This "christ" that you believe in is a false idol god who cannot save; and therefore, you remain dead in your sins. I am not saying that you are doomed for hell, since the sovereign God of the universe may cause you to repent and believe the gospel; however, what I am saying is that you are currently unregenerate, and will remain so unless God causes you to be otherwise.

I am sure that we will get to know each other better; however, not as brethren, save God regenerates you and gives you a belief of the truth.

-jonas

PS: Look at the beginning of Romans 9 to see who Paul is talking about... Also, take a look at what Paul said in Romans 9:2. Also, I encourage you to read the entire chapter.

Jonas,

Like I said, and you confirm, you are a hyper-Calvinists, but unlike you, I am unable to see into hearts so God knows whether you know Christ or not. I've read the book of Romans countless times so I will not bother to do so at this moment, but I am sure I will read it all again in the near future.

I will let others judge as to which of us has more closely presented the truth here. I think you present a gross distortion of the Doctrines of Grace.

I stand in Christ washed in His blood my faith is secure in Him. You may believe as you will.

Again I wish you a good day.

Deo Vindice,
Kenith

Ps you may want to look up WordOfFaithEvangelist. Y'all are worlds apart theologically, but you both have the same spirit.

 

[jonas3]

I am unable to see into hearts so God knows whether you know Christ or not.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Lk 6:45

you may want to look up WordOfFaithEvangelist. Y'all are worlds apart theologically, but you both have the same spirit.

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" - Gal 4:16

You judge me to have an antichrist spirit, but on what basis do you make your "righteous judgement" (Jn 7:24)? I have told you how I made mine. You do not believe the gospel. Do you judge by a different standard?

-jonas

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Lk 6:45-

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" - Gal 4:16

You judge me to have an antichrist spirit, but on what basis do you make your "righteous judgement" (Jn 7:24)? I have told you how I made mine. You do not believe the gospel. Do you judge by a different standard?

-jonas

Jonas,

We will let others see and decide who speaks the truth on this matter. I am certain I am in line with God's Holy Word and you teach a distortion. You think the same of me.

By your standard (not Scripture) there are likely very few, if any, other true Christians on this forum.

I will let the brethren here (I do believe these folk are my brothers and sisters in Christ) decide who speaks the truth.

I pray you find the truth and chunk your hyper-Calvinism. I don't think there is any more I can say to you on this thread.

Coram Deo,
Kenith