Faith without works explained

[fhansen]

Those who blame and accuse people are speaking from the tempter's seat, because sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

It's so important to understand what these passages mean.

"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God " 2 Cor 5:18-21

A major aspect of our reconciliation with God is forgiveness of our sins, just as forgiveness is part of reconciliation in our own, earthly relationships. But not so that we can remain in our sins, and continue to sin. We don't expect the person to continue to offend us over and over if reconciliation is going to be effective and mean anything. So the passage goes on to say that God appeals to us, and the ultimate purpose is so that we become righteous, no longer offensive.

And awareness of sin and opposition to it in no way automatically implies accusation or condemnation or judgmentalism, just the opposite, in fact.

"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Matt 18:15-17

"Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17:3

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Gal 6:1

Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. 2 Thess 3:15

As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 1 Tom 5:20

ETC, there are many such verses

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

A major aspect of our reconciliation with God is forgiveness of our sins, just as forgiveness is part of reconciliation in our own, earthly relationships. But not so that we can remain in our sins, and continue to sin.

No one stops being a sinner so continuation isn't even in the cards.

What does happen is when we see our sin as rightfully of the devil, then we see it's no longer I just as Paul saw in Romans 7:17-21

Still doesn't make anyone sinless

We don't expect the person to continue to offend us over and over if reconciliation is going to be effective and mean anything.

I wouldn't expect the devil to change what the devil does

So the passage goes on to say that God appeals to us, and the ultimate purpose is so that we become righteous, no longer offensive.

People are always offended when it's pointed out that their sin is demonic

And awareness of sin and opposition to it in no way automatically implies accusation or condemnation or judgmentalism, just the opposite,

uh sin is under perpetual condemnation

 

[fhansen]

No one stops being a sinner so continuation isn't even in the cards.

What does happen is when we see our sin as rightfully of the devil, then we see it's no longer I just as Paul saw in Romans 7:17-21

Still doesn't make anyone sinless




I wouldn't expect the devil to change what the devil does


People are always offended when it's pointed out that their sin is demonic


uh sin is under perpetual condemnation

Uh, I'll stick with Scripture, the whole counsel.of it. I don't hide behind the devil as making righteousness impossible when God says he's been conquered along with sin. That was Paul's whole point in Rom 7 and into Rom 8 following.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I don't hide behind the devil

People who think they don't sin or their sin is NOT of the devil are merely providing cover for same

 

[Dan Perez]

People who think they don't sin or their sin is NOT of the devil are merely providing cover for same .

And some said that they are BORN of GOD sinners NOT. // OU , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE ,that means

they can. NEVERRRRR EVER SIN. !!

dan p

 

[fhansen]

People who think they don't sin or their sin is NOT of the devil are merely providing cover for same

And anyone who says that believers can't overcome sin aren't correctly hearing and trusting God's word

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@fhansen And anyone who says that believers can't overcome sin aren't correctly hearing and trusting God's word

I agree this is what the Scriptures teach

Pro 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Sin of course being the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7 His version, not mans.

Why when Jesus healed, He said go and sin no more, if that wasn't possible, He would have not commanded to do so.

Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith.

Why in Revelation is constantly referring to those who overcome

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I believe His commandments are His Testimony Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 man cannot change a jot or tittle what was written personally by our Lord and Savior. Exo 20:1-17 as they sit in God's temple and His word is settled in heaven Psa 119:89

Rev 15:5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And some said that they are BORN of GOD sinners NOT. // OU , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE ,that means

they can. NEVERRRRR EVER SIN. !!

dan p

Good luck with denying the hard line reality of Jesus' Words, Mark 7:21-23 being applicable to you

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And anyone who says that believers can't overcome sin aren't correctly hearing and trusting God's word

Learn the difference between "dominion over sin" compared to false claims of "eradication of sin."

The latter doesn't exist

And we don't dominate over sin if we don't have it to dominate over

 

[fhansen]

Learn the difference between "dominion over sin" compared to false claims of "eradication of sin."

That should be a fairly simple concept for you to define. And I see that you've defined it earlier as "to understand we do "have sin" present tense". But if instead you meant that believers have been given a certain power over sin, freedom from its captivity so that they may overcome it by the power of the Spirit, even if they won't achieve this in a perfect or absolute sense in this life, then you would be consistent with the historic Chistian faith-and Scripture.

To acknowledge our sinfulness is good, essential, in fact. To believe that the gospel amounts to nothing more than this ackowledgement coupled with the faith to believe we're now forgiven is to do violence to the gospel. Jesus came for more than that, more than to simply, suddenly, ignore injustice. He came to restore justice, the right way, God's Way. We're to follow Him in that way.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

To acknowledge our sinfulness is good, essential, in fact

It's a perpetual state and it's of the devil

Make of that what you can

 

[fhansen]

It's a perpetual state and it's of the devil

Make of that what you can

God never created man to be a sinner to begin with, and there's a solution to that problem now. Man must be reconciled to and aligned with Him, and not the devil. That's how we become a slave to righteousness (which is simply the way we were meant to be anyway), and not to sin. Much Scripture must be ignored to think otherwise.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God never created man to be a sinner to begin with

Satan and his messengers are the sinners. People are God's children. Draw your lines there and you won't find any need to mistake one for the other.

I would suggest a read through 1 Cor. 15:42-46. God planted all people in weakness, corruption and dishonor in a natural body that was doomed to die from the beginning.

Romans 11:32, God BOUND everyone to "disobedience."

When you realize the tempter is in your mind, you'll see it. But if you deny it, it's not even you denying

 

[fhansen]

Satan and his messengers are the sinners. People are God's children. Draw your lines there and you won't find any need to mistake one for the other.

I would suggest a read through 1 Cor. 15:42-46. God planted all people in weakness, corruption and dishonor in a natural body that was doomed to die from the beginning.

Romans 11:32, God BOUND everyone to "disobedience."

When you realize the tempter is in your mind, you'll see it. But if you deny it, it's not even you denying

And yet what does Paul say in 1 Cor 15 just before he enters into his commentarty on the resurrection of the body?:
"Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame." 1 Cor 15:33-34

And then at the end of chap 15:
"Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain."

IOW, the raising of the dead to newness of life, our rebirth, life in the Spirit, begins here, in this life, even if it won't be fully complete until the next. So what Paul contrasts here in 1 Cor 15 as the difference between the flesh and the Spirit is echoed in such passages as Gal 6:7-10:
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

Or in Rom 2:7:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

And Rom 8:12-14:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And yet what does Paul say in 1 Cor 15 just before he enters into his commentarty on the resurrection of the body?:
"Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame." 1 Cor 15:33-34

And then at the end of chap 15:
"Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain."

IOW, the raising of the dead to newness of life, our rebirth, life in the Spirit, begins here, in this life, even if it won't be fully complete until the next. So what Paul contrasts here in 1 Cor 15 as the difference between the flesh and the Spirit is echoed in such passages as Gal 6:7-10:
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

Or in Rom 2:7:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

And Rom 8:12-14:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

You might be able to picture this:

Sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19

Sins are counted against the devil and his messengers

It was never a one or the other deal. It's both

 

[fhansen]

You might be able to picture this:

Sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19

Sins are counted against the devil and his messengers

It was never a one or the other deal. It's both

Sins are not counted against people for the sake of reconciliation. Reconciliation reunites fallen man with God, a union that man is made for and which justice, itself, calls for. It's the very source of justice/righteouness for man by virtue of our connection to the Vine, 'apart from whom we can do nothing'. From God's perspective reconciliation is offered to all. From man's perspective this is a choice even as the choice is initiated, prompted, and aided by grace.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor 5:17-21

The devil need not keep winning, keep us in slavery, keep having authority over us, in this life.

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord," Acts 3:19

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:22-24

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Sins are not counted against people for the sake of reconciliation. Reconciliation reunites fallen man with God, a union that man is made for and which justice, itself, calls for. From God's perspective reconciliation is offered to all. From man's perspective this is a choice even as the choice is initiated, prompted, and aided by grace.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor 5:17-21

The devil need not keep winning, keep us in slavery, keep having authority over us, in this life.

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord," Acts 3:19

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:22-24

The evil within no one is reconciled to God, nor is evil eradicated from within any believer.

The most we can extract from the arrangement is HONESTY. Otherwise we're simply another lying hypocrite captured within by that same evil present. Certainly not in dominion by any stretch.

The very basis of even being a disciples is hatred of our own life and the life of others, because of the fact of evil's presence. Luke 14:26

No one will stand justified before God. The determination of GUILTY has been set from the beginning, Romans 3:19

Any claim of no evil evil present or no sin just speaks of captivity by it along with false self justification, all demonically sourced

 

[fhansen]

The evil within no one is reconciled to God, nor is evil eradicated from within any believer.

The most we can extract from the arrangement is HONESTY. Otherwise we're simply another lying hypocrite captured within by that same evil present. Certainly not in dominion by any stretch.

The very basis of even being a disciples is hatred of our own life and the life of others, because of the fact of evil's presence. Luke 14:26

No one will stand justified before God. The determination of GUILTY has been set from the beginning, Romans 3:19

Any claim of no evil evil present or no sin just speaks of captivity by it along with false self justification, all demonically sourced

Honesty about sin, stemming from humility, is key to our reconciliation, and so to our renewal. our rebirth, by God, our freedom from the captivity of that sin (Rom 6). And it's not either/or; read the Parable of the Talents or Bags of Gold, Matt 25. God is expecting, demanding, some return and increase in the grace and righteousness He gives us, rather than our lazily burying the gift as if "investing" it is all a futile endeavor. He demands holiness and gives us the means to acheive it. We mock Him and the sacrifice of His Son (Gal 6:7, Heb 6:6) if we don't begin to grow in righteousness by virtue of our encounter with Him. We can't even love right without Him, and yet a believer does love: "We love Him because He first loved us". Does that sound like someone who is unavoidably enslaved to sin alone? Does satan love God, as the greatest commandent says we must?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are living in the last days, and people will do anything to justify that they can do evil and yet be in Christ’s Kingdom.

Paul warned us of those who would have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.
Meaning, they do not believe God can help them to overcome sins like the ones below.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
(2 Timothy 3:1-7).

Paul says elsewhere:

8 "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." (Galatians 6:8-9).

So "he" (any person, including the believer) sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
So are you sowing to the Holy Spirit to reap everasting life?
Verse 9 says let us (the body of believers) not be weary (not be tired) in well doing (good works), for in due season we shall reap if we faint not.

Meaning, we will reap everlasting life if we faint not in sowing to the Holy Spirit in well doing or good works.

Now, in this passage, the "he" (any person including the believer) who sows to his flesh (sin) shall of the flesh reap corruption.

While the word "corruption" can have different meanings in the Bible based on the context, in this instance, it is tied to hell because it is contrasted with ”life everlasting.”

We see a similar thing in Acts 2, where "corruption" is tied to "hell":

“Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (Acts 2:27)
“He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:31).

So if you are not sowing to the Spirit in well doing or good works you are not going to reap everlasting life. Meaning, if you do not have everlasting life, you will not be saved and make into God's Kingdom. You will reap corruption for sowing to the flesh (sin) and corruption is hell.

If you are not convinced by this passage by the apostle Paul, let me give you one more.

Paul also says in 1 Timothy 5:8,
“But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

So okay. The whole "I can sin and still be saved" by a belief alone in the finished work of the cross idea does not work here. Paul (the grace teacher) is saying that if you do not provide for your own, you have denied the faith and are worse than infidel. An infidel is an unbeliever. So it is saying you (the believer) are worse than unbeliever if you do not provide for your own. This proves that a good work of providing for your own is a part of the faith. You cannot say this verse is referring to a false believer because a false believer would simply be an "unbeliever." Only a believer can be worse than an unbeliever. An unbeliever cannot be worse than an unbeliever. That does not make any sense. But I am sure those who prefer to justify their sin while thinking they are saved will try to find a way to either ignore these pieces of Scripture or they will twist them to their own destruction. I say this not because I do not care or love them in Christ, but at the same time, it burns me up that people think they justify doing wrong and evil. In other words, if you were ever mad at another for doing evil or wrong, then know this is how God feels about sin. Scripture says God is angry at the wicked every day. Just because a person believes on Jesus does not give them an exemption from the punishment (the true punishment of sin) which is the Lake of Fire. As Paul says: Do not be deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.