Faith vs Works

[BNR32FAN]

Not necessary in my view, but maybe you can answer what trained in the correct faith actually means?

I’m not familiar with the phrase brother.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not necessary in my view, but maybe you can answer what trained in the correct faith actually means?

I wouldn't have said it that way ...

What we do have is the same faith that was delivered by the Apostles. In the East, there was never a Reformation. We don't "develop" new doctrine like the Catholics do. Our biggest focus as far as doctrine is to hold on to what was passed down, without change. Some people consider that our weakness - but I have come to believe it is a strength.

No Church Father or Saint is infallible (even St. Peter was making mistakes in Acts), but when they have taught with a combined agreement over 20 centuries - we trust that.

It is very precious to us.

 

[Christman811]

I just wanted to make sure my posts coincide with the Orthodox teachings. Thanks brother.

"...he that is not against us is for us." (Luke 9:50)

Of course

 

[Toolbelt]

One more addition.... do you know in Deuteronomy 6 where it starts, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one" and then goes on to list the commandments? The word for "hear" is shema... and though that word does mean hear, every Hebrew scholar I have ever met has said the same thing... the full definition is "hear and do" or "hear and act." Shema and pistis are the same concept... hear and do what you hear if the source you heard from is God.
Y next question
Edit... same as one of the other posters above... didn't realize this was an EO forum... MOD please delete my posts if inappropriate.

I as an EO can agree. Is justification than apart from santification. Thats my next question.

 

[Christman811]

Not necessary in my view, but maybe you can answer what trained in the correct faith actually means?

I use "trained" to mean "taught". Perhaps I used a bad synonym. But it is the same as what Paul says to the Ephesians: "But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus"

 

[Ken Rank]

I as an EO can agree. Is justification than apart from santification. Thats my next question.

Not any more than believe and faith are apart. What I mean is... we treat faith like belief but they really are different. One doesn't have to "hear the Word of God" in order to believe something, but faith isn't faith without it. The thing is... if we hear the word of God we will believe it, because the source we heard was God. So they are connected but different.

So it is with justification and sanctification. They are connected because as soon as there is justification (a one time process) we are set apart from the world around us (sanctification) but where justification is generally a one time deal, sanctification is an ongoing process that is dependent on where where are in our walk AND what God might need to use us for at any particular time.

Not sure that made sense... I am getting tired.

 

[Toolbelt]

I use "trained" to mean "taught". Perhaps I used a bad synonym. But it is the same as what Paul says to the Ephesians: "But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus"

Thanks fror clarifying that.

 

[Toolbelt]

I wouldn't have said it that way ...

What we do have is the same faith that was delivered by the Apostles. In the East, there was never a Reformation. We don't "develop" new doctrine like the Catholics do. Our biggest focus as far as doctrine is to hold on to what was passed down, without change. Some people consider that our weakness - but I have come to believe it is a strength.

No Church Father or Saint is infallible (even St. Peter was making mistakes in Acts), but when they have taught with a combined agreement over 20 centuries - we trust that.

It is very precious to us.

Just to clarify. I was quoting this.

Scroll up and you will see that my post is littered with Scripture as are the posts of other brethren here. We want Orthodox answers. Since your answer does not fit within the Orthodox understanding of faith, it is not Orthodox. Don't be offended, but we who are trained in the true faith receive no edification from doctrines that oppose what we hold to be the truth.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just to clarify. I was quoting this.

Yes I know. Things have been a bit abrasive in TAW lately and I thought clarification might be good.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

what Scripture says this, exactly?

just because you asked:

galatians 2:16
ephesians 2:8-9, 10
romans 8:29
titus 2:11-14

have a good day

 

[Toolbelt]

Not any more than believe and faith are apart. What I mean is... we treat faith like belief but they really are different. One doesn't have to "hear the Word of God" in order to believe something, but faith isn't faith without it. The thing is... if we hear the word of God we will believe it, because the source we heard was God. So they are connected but different.

So it is with justification and sanctification. They are connected because as soon as there is justification (a one time process) we are set apart from the world around us (sanctification) but where justification is generally a one time deal, sanctification is an ongoing process that is dependent on where where are in our walk AND what God might need to use us for at any particular time.



Not sure that made sense... I am getting tired.

So the deaf are going to hell and everybody who says lord lord is sanctified.

Go get some sleep. Lol

 

[Ken Rank]

So the deaf are going to hell and everybody who says lord lord is sanctified.

Go get some sleep. Lol

Absolutely not and I have no clue how you could have gotten that out of what I said. I don't believe that, I don't think, and looking at my post I am bewildered that you come away thinking that! The word sanctify simply means "to set apart." If God calls you to do a work, you are being set apart for that work... sanctified for that work.

 

[Toolbelt]

Absolutely not and I have no clue how you could have gotten that out of what I said. I don't believe that, I don't think, and looking at my post I am bewildered that you come away thinking that! The word sanctify simply means "to set apart." If God calls you to do a work, you are being set apart for that work... sanctified for that work.

I was taught that santification is salvation. I must admit I through a dig on the hearing part. We have icons to teach the illiterate and deaf.
I do agree with you on some issues though. Santification isnt one of them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

just because you asked:

galatians 2:16
ephesians 2:8-9, 10
romans 8:29
titus 2:11-14

have a good day

none of those used the word "alone" the way you did though, or violation of God's Law. it seems your post really was not that Biblical.

 

[Ken Rank]

I was taught that santification is salvation. I must admit I through a dig on the hearing part. We have icons to teach the illiterate and deaf.
I do agree with you on some issues though. Santification isnt one of them.

It is a religious word that is defined differently by various groups. Here is what comes up when you Google the word:

Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy. ... To sanctify is to literally "set apart for particular use in a special purpose or work and to make holy or sacred."

Even "holy" in every language involved simply means "to set apart." Now, in Hebrew...

H6942
קדשׁ
qâdash
BDB Definition:
1) to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate

This can be a one time event of an ongoing process depending on need and situation. Remember, every word has more than one meaning and we can't force a word to only have one meaning because our theology can't handle more than one meaning.

 

[Lukaris]

From what I gather from the preaching of our saints is that justification is more based on the universal salvation given by the Lord to include the Gentiles. ( my understanding from a 5th c. Homily by St. John Chrysostom covering Romans 3:28-29 see:CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 7 on Romans (Chrysostom)

Justification applies in a more universal or “catholic” sense I believe. Whereas sanctification is the fulfillment of our individual salvation.

St Mark the Ascetic ( said to be a disciple of St John Chrysostom) preached on that we are not made righteous by works per what the Lord preached in Luke 17:5-10.

“If ‘Christ died on our account in accordance with the Scriptures’ ( Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3) and we do not ‘live for ourselves’ but ‘for Him who died and rose’ on our account ( 2 Corinthians 5:15), it is clear that we are debtors to Christ to serve Him to our death. How then can we regard sonship as something which is our due?”

Later, St. Mark ties this in with our sanctification & grace.

“Every good work which we perform through our own natural powers causes us to refrain from the corresponding sin; but without grace it cannot contribute to our sanctification.”

Quotes of St. Mark are from the Philokalia vol.1.

 

[Toolbelt]

It is a religious word that is defined differently by various groups. Here is what comes up when you Google the word:

Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy. ... To sanctify is to literally "set apart for particular use in a special purpose or work and to make holy or sacred."

Even "holy" in every language involved simply means "to set apart." Now, in Hebrew...

H6942
קדשׁ
qâdash
BDB Definition:
1) to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate

This can be a one time event of an ongoing process depending on need and situation. Remember, every word has more than one meaning and we can't force a word to only have one meaning because our theology can't handle more than one meaning.

I kind of disagree. I happen to be Greek and the last time I looked. The NT was written in it. The word santified and agios are expressed in most instances as holy.
That brings up the lord lord comment I made earlier. Made holy means saved. So in your veiw justification and santification are the same thing or a feed off the other. In my veiw it is as well. But where we differ is when it occurs.

 

[Ken Rank]

I kind of disagree. I happen to be Greek and the last time I looked. The NT was written in it. The word santified and agios are expressed in most instances as holy.
That brings up the lord lord comment I made earlier. Made holy means saved. So in your veiw justification and santification are the same thing or a feed off the other. In my veiw it is as well. But where we differ is when it occurs.

OH my gosh... I said they were related but NOT THE SAME. I even gave an example to show how faith and belief are related but BUT NOT THE SAME. As for your Greek comment... there we REALLY don't agree. And even if the NT was written in Greek (not likely but for the sake of argument I will assume it was) you are still talking about JEWS IN JUDEA who did not think like Greeks they thought like Hebrews. That is why getting the definition from Hebrew often adds context we lack only reading in English based on Greek.

I have nothing to add here... be blessed.

 

[Toolbelt]

OH my gosh... I said they were related but NOT THE SAME. I even gave an example to show how faith and belief are related but BUT NOT THE SAME. As for your Greek comment... there we REALLY don't agree. And even if the NT was written in Greek (not likely but for the sake of argument I will assume it was) you are still talking about JEWS IN JUDEA who did not think like Greeks they thought like Hebrews. That is why getting the definition from Hebrew often adds context we lack only reading in English based on Greek.

I have nothing to add here... be blessed.

How do you account for the fact that 90% of the new testament was written to the Greeks? Every epistle has a heading? Google that heading and lay it out on a map. Than come back and I will be happy to discuss.

 

[E.C.]

I posted not knowing what section the thread was in as I clicked on it from the new threads list.

Sorry everyone I didn’t realize this is an OC forum. Please forgive me. I will erase my posts if you do not agree with them.

Edit... same as one of the other posters above... didn't realize this was an EO forum... MOD please delete my posts if inappropriate.

I remember a time when in the new threads section it actually said what forum or subforum the thread in question was in thus reducing confusion and strife.

Not to put you three on the spot here, but I just quote y'all to emphasize the need to bringing back that feature.

Carry on.

Yes I know. Things have been a bit abrasive in TAW lately and I thought clarification might be good.

So THAT'S what happens when I disappear