Faith vs Works

[S.O.J.I.A.]

No disrespect, but this question was posted on the Orthodox section to attract Orthodox answers, not falsehoods from other sects of Christianity. Our Church doesn't support your doctrine; we utterly reject it unless you are willing to define "faith" according to the Orthodox Church's dogmas.

nevermind my biblical answer then, go ahead and delete my response.

 

[ArmyMatt]

we need to get the terms correct first.

salvation includes the entire process of redeeming the fallen sinner which is the justification of the sinner from their violation of God's law as well as the sanctification of the sinner in conforming them to the image of Christ. faith and works are included in this process.

this discussion on "faith vs. works" is centered around the justification part. that part is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

what Scripture says this, exactly?

 

[Toolbelt]

Your interpretation of a biblical answer maybe.

 

[ArmyMatt]

nevermind my biblical answer then, go ahead and delete my response.

it's not a Biblical answer when you don't actually reference the Bible.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

again, wrong section. it can be deleted.

 

[BNR32FAN]

we need to get the terms correct first.

salvation includes the entire process of redeeming the fallen sinner which is the justification of the sinner from their violation of God's law as well as the sanctification of the sinner in conforming them to the image of Christ. faith and works are included in this process.

this discussion on "faith vs. works" is centered around the justification part. that part is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

Good point my friend but not only faith and works but also repentance. These combined are what make up being born again and walking in the spirit.

 

[Toolbelt]

I hope we didnt scare you away. The W

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I hope we didnt scare you away. The W

I posted not knowing what section the thread was in as I clicked on it from the new threads list.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just define faith for them. We have two verses we can place together that give us the complete picture. And that is what we want to emphasize, the COMPLETE picture. So, we have Paul writing that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." And we have James writing that "faith without works is dead being alone." So when we put them together we learn that "faith comes by hearing the Word of God and then ACTING on what we hear." We hear... and then we do... that is faith. Moses was told, "hold out your staff," and he heard and did and the water parted. Noach heard that a flood was coming and that he needed to build an ark. So, he heard and he built and he was safe. Abraham was told to move to a place he had never been before and so he heard and he moved. Hear and do... that is faith. Hebrews 11 is the great faith chapter... and every example has somebody hearing God and then acting on what they heard.

And if anyone wants to argue that... just walk away. One only hears when they are seeking and we can't make another seek!

Just define faith for them. We have two verses we can place together that give us the complete picture. And that is what we want to emphasize, the COMPLETE picture. So, we have Paul writing that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." And we have James writing that "faith without works is dead being alone." So when we put them together we learn that "faith comes by hearing the Word of God and then ACTING on what we hear." We hear... and then we do... that is faith. Moses was told, "hold out your staff," and he heard and did and the water parted. Noach heard that a flood was coming and that he needed to build an ark. So, he heard and he built and he was safe. Abraham was told to move to a place he had never been before and so he heard and he moved. Hear and do... that is faith. Hebrews 11 is the great faith chapter... and every example has somebody hearing God and then acting on what they heard.

And if anyone wants to argue that... just walk away. One only hears when they are seeking and we can't make another seek!

Good point you could also add that the word faith is translated from the Greek word pistis meaning to believe and to have faithfulness and fidelity.

 

[Christman811]

nevermind my biblical answer then, go ahead and delete my response.

Scroll up and you will see that my post is littered with Scripture as are the posts of other brethren here. We want Orthodox answers. Since your answer does not fit within the Orthodox understanding of faith, it is not Orthodox. Don't be offended, but we who are trained in the true faith receive no edification from doctrines that oppose what we hold to be the truth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry everyone I didn’t realize this is an OC forum. Please forgive me. I will erase my posts if you do not agree with them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And what exactly is justification? Is it the moment god tells the believer he is OK now?

I'm not sure if you were making a point or asking a question, etc?

But I never hear talk of justification vs sanctification in the Church. We do speak of conversion. "Saved" is a much more complete thing that encompasses what Christ did, our faith, out walk, and ultimately our resurrection and being approved by God.

Sometimes we have to translate a bit when talking to folks from various denominations. For many of them, "saved" means the same thing to them as we mean by "conversion".

And usually they consider "justification" to be that moment of conversion too, but that's due to a heavier focus on just the "legal" aspect of salvation, which we acknowledge, but for us it has more to do with total healing of the person from the sickness of sin, and reversal of the curse of death that resulted.

 

[Ken Rank]

Good point you could also add that the word faith is translated from the Greek word pistis meaning to believe and to have faithfulness and fidelity.

One more addition.... do you know in Deuteronomy 6 where it starts, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one" and then goes on to list the commandments? The word for "hear" is shema... and though that word does mean hear, every Hebrew scholar I have ever met has said the same thing... the full definition is "hear and do" or "hear and act." Shema and pistis are the same concept... hear and do what you hear if the source you heard from is God.

Edit... same as one of the other posters above... didn't realize this was an EO forum... MOD please delete my posts if inappropriate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I posted not knowing what section the thread was in as I clicked on it from the new threads list.

I’m notorious for doing the same thing my friend.

 

[Christman811]

One more addition.... do you know in Deuteronomy 6 where it starts, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one" and then goes on to list the commandments? The word for "hear" is shema... and though that word does mean hear, every Hebrew scholar I have ever met has said the same thing... the full definition is "hear and do" or "hear and act." Shema and pistis are the same concept... hear and do what you hear if the source you heard from is God.

Edit... same as one of the other posters above... didn't realize this was an EO forum... MOD please delete my posts if inappropriate.

The end of Matthew 7 asserts the same conclusion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

One more addition.... do you know in Deuteronomy 6 where it starts, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one" and then goes on to list the commandments? The word for "hear" is shema... and though that word does mean hear, every Hebrew scholar I have ever met has said the same thing... the full definition is "hear and do" or "hear and act." Shema and pistis are the same concept... hear and do what you hear if the source you heard from is God.

Edit... same as one of the other posters above... didn't realize this was an EO forum... MOD please delete my posts if inappropriate.

Thanks for sharing that. That is very useful information. Have a blessed day brother.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sorry everyone I didn’t realize this is an OC forum. Please forgive me. I will erase my posts if you do not agree with them.

It is not our desire to kick everyone out. We welcome posts in fellowship, questions, etc and I know how easy it is to not realize where you are posting.

The only time we have a problem is when someone chooses to continue arguing after being informed. We even have a place that allows for that. (St. Justin's)

 

[Christman811]

I’m notorious for doing the same thing my friend.

I don't think there is an issue with this so long as heterodox are not attempting to propagate heterodox doctrines. If you post Orthodox things, there is no problem because Truth is Truth.

 

[Toolbelt]

Sorry everyone I didn’t realize this is an OC forum. Please forgive me. I will erase my posts if you do not agree with them.

Not necessary in my view, but maybe you can answer what trained in the correct faith actually means?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't think there is an issue with this so long as heterodox are not attempting to propagate heterodox doctrines. If you post Orthodox things, there is no problem because Truth is Truth.

I just wanted to make sure my posts coincide with the Orthodox teachings. Thanks brother.