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Faith plus Works...how do you know if your doing enough works?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by yogosans14, Mar 11, 2015.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The Bible is saying that if a person trusts in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12), God's works are guaranteed to happen . . . not required but guaranteed.[/QUOTE]
    I know the Bible says that works are commanded. Not guaranteed. Documentation for your claim?

    I don't see any guarantee in any of these (or any other) verses.
     
  2. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In any case, it is clear which works are not going to save >

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" (in Galatians 3:10)

    "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith.'" (Galatians 3:11)

    But if you repent, is this not a work (2 Corinthians 7:10)? If you trust Jesus to save you (Ephesians 1:12), isn't this a work? There are works we need to do.

    But if a work is by our own self-effort, this does not . . . work.

    John 6:44-45

    Matthew 11:28-30

    Philippians 1:6 and 2:13

    James 4:7

    However, some number of people claiming to be Christians have been doing things in their own ability, and this is why they miss out on Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) We need to do the works which are in submission to God, so we are sweetly and sensitively sharing with Him in His love (Romans 5:5) and how His love effects us (1 John 4:17-18), lovingly so we are in His rest for our souls.
     
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said this:
    "If good works are required for salvation (redemption of the body), then Rom 8:23 directly contradicts what else Paul wrote:Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,Eph 2;8,9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Seems you're equating loyalty with faith. Correct?

    Where is redemption of the body defined as THE gift? The Bible defines justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17), eternal life (Rom 6:23) and salvation (Eph 2:8) as gifts.

    What passage teaches that Adam was destined to receive any gift?

    Uh, what is the "whole package"?

    No. The Spirit indwells every believer. What verse says He "is seatedd with Christ"? Or "demonstrated in requesting baptism"?

    Please define what you mean by 'die'. The Bible has many meanings for death.

    What verse says so?

    This is called the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16 and noted in 1 Cor 11:30.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    All of them aren't going to save anyone. Or, none of them will save anyone.

    No and no.

    Not for salvation. And faith is a non-meritorious action, not a work.
     
  5. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But, even though the Bible clearly says there are works which we need, it does not say the works are our assurance of salvation. But in order for us to have "boldness in the day of judgment" >

    "Love has been perfected among us in this, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

    So, our assurance is not in the works, but in how we become perfected in His love while we do works of this love >

    "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

    In this love, we have true assurance >

    "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

    Therefore, we need to submit to our Father for His correction > Hebrews 12:6-11. His correction, Hebrews 12:6-11 says, will have us become "partakers of His holiness", plus this correction by our Father "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us. If we do not have His correction, this scripture says, "then you are illegitimate and not sons."

    So, we need to do the work of seeking our Father for His correction. We need how You, our Father, change us so we are submitting to You for Your correction, and not only guilt-tripping ourselves as a way of trying to pay You off so we can keep on in our pleasure sins.

    And if any of us is still "illegitimate and not sons" because we are not getting how You succeed in us, You desire to adopt anyone who is not Your child; so may anyone illegitimate seek You for Your correction.

    Then, for us Jesus people who need more correction > we with God have His ability to help each other > we are called to this, in our priesthood of Jesus >

    "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16)

    So, I would say that mutual confessing and mutual healing prayer are works which are included, in getting us
    "healed" of whatever makes us able to sin and then suffer deeply, plus "healed" more together with God in His love and how He has us loving.

     
  6. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    About if repenting and trusting in Jesus are works >
    Not by your definition. But if I repent the way God has me repent, He has worked in me to get me to do this . . . action. So, this is a work, in this way, if not by your definition. By work, I mean what God has us do. Whatever He has us do is needed.
     
  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Okay.

    Yes.

    http://theogeek.blogspot.in/2006/03/patron-client-system-and-hebrews-111.html?m=1

    Quote
    Another example: Jesus says "believe in me". [which is a mis-translation of course, breaking the above rule] Jesus is asking for people to become his clients. ie he's saying "follow me". He's not saying "believe that I am God". There are other examples in classical literature of people saying "believe in me", and guess what, they were wanting clients, not claiming divinity.

    People say "thank you" when they receive gifts. Paul said thank you in Romans 7. The gift was the possibility now to be rescued from the body of death. You'll see a lot of now's in Paul's writings

    Romans 7:21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    God asked Adam to subdue creation. Adam was part of creation. Romans 7 is the description of Adam's quandary. In his mind he knew God's law was right and desired to obey. However, the unredeemed body, which God had instructed him to subdue, resisted his good intentions. Creation is like a plant that needs to be pruned, trained, in order to bear fruit.

    Paul talked of a better resurrection. His spirit already sat with Christ in high places

    Ephesians 2:4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

    So what happens when you are baptised? What part of you is with Christ in high places?

    God desired Adam to subdue his body, complete creation, manifest love for God. A parallel in Paul's teaching to subdue the body. Obedience is love. This is possible only if God is with man. Adam became a sinner. He could not be with God. He lost the opportunity to have a body which obeyed his mind. This is death.

    1 Corinthians 5:5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Paul says handing over to Satan is the way that the spirit may be saved. Obviously it means that if he does not do that, then the person's spirit may NOT be saved.




     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    So it seems you don't believe that Jesus was divinity? OK, we're done. Nothing more to discuss.
     
  9. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Straw man fallacy.
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Yeah, right.
     
  11. Brother Chris

    Brother Chris Newbie

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    Is Jesus Christ, God?
     
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The writer I quoted believes Jesus is God, I believe Jesus is God.
     
  13. Brother Chris

    Brother Chris Newbie

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    Good just wanted to make sure. Most people who believe in a "works" based salvation, will deny the deity of Christ and His complete and saving work on the cross.
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    To understand how loyalty and favor works, or as it is more commonly known, faith and grace, imagine a powerful king working to bring about order in the midst of anarchy and chaos, and the running loose of robber barons.

    He marches through the country and makes a stop at every individual state. Before the king arrives at your doorstep, you must decide if you have the resources to resist him and keep your independence or must ask for terms of peace. No sovereign king wishes to adopt a scorched earth policy, a dead subject is not a useful subject, so there IS room for negotiation. Remember, this was a very common situation in ancient times, of suzerains and vassaldoms. The sovereign will accept full surrender, or taxes, or service depending on what the vassal has to offer, or maybe how strong his bargaining position is. Some have such power that simply an offer not to stab the sovereign in the back is sufficient. Others must offer much more, their armies being so weak that to offer less would mean certain extermination.

    Of course, some sovereign leaders are so powerful and rich that their goal is only to attain fame, as kingdom builders. They require nothing, except that the vassal be followers, imitate him in bringing law and order in their immediate surroundings. In return, the sovereign offers all his resources to help in the effort, so that he will have a beautiful, peaceful and orderly empire.

    This then illustrates how loyalty and grace works . As long as the vassal is loyal, agrees with the goals of the sovereign and adopts his methods of achieving those results, he remains in the favor, the good books, of the sovereign.

    Paul worked to bring his life into alignment with God's goals, and uses God's resources towards this end. Maybe work is a bad choice of a word for what he is actually doing. He is identifying the deeds of the body that needs to be worked on, as revealed by the spotlight that God brings to bear on his life. A slow process, because most people justify why they do what they do, and try to make it legitimate and reasonable to cling to, until God's searchlight swings around and reveals it for what it really is, a habit or deed that is not in alignment with God's kingdom. God makes His views on the issue known and persuades us to change our mind, till we agree with Him. Of course some of us are like the merciless steward who would not forgive even though he was forgiven of a greater debt, who totally lose the plot and need to be chastised or worse. To those who are NOT clueless, who begin to realise what God's Kingdom stands for, it is then that God gives us the resources to put to death those deeds of the body.

    As John puts it so well:

    1 John 1:5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

    What is faith? Faith is not sinning:

    1 John 3:4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

    Abiding in Christ, is not serving the world or self, but serving God, like Joshua who abandoned serving Egypt, then abandoned serving even self, to serve God, caring not even to preserve his very life, but offering it for God's use.

    This is faith, this is sinlessness, not narrowly defined as a moral quality, but as a recognition and submission to the greatest power. This is loyalty.

    Parallel seen here:

    Genesis 22:10Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

    As Paul walked in the light and put to death the deeds of his body, con-fessing, same-speaking, agreeing with God's view on every aspect of his life, THAT agreement was loyalty, and loyalty was rewarded with favor, grace. The blood of God's Son, Jesus cleansed him from unrighteousness. When he prayed for the thorn in his flesh to be removed, to prevent him from becoming proud, being misled into believing his perfecting was saving him, God let him know that being in His good books, His favor, His grace, was what counted. Imagine, being in God's good books is the same as being cleansed of all the deeds of the body!

    2 Corinthians 12:9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  15. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Rom 4
    4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
    5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
    6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
    7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."


    Apparently the Apostle Paul didn't believe God even considered one's works when it came to justifying a person, but faith alone.
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    However this is a worrying verse:

    Romans 8:13-14--For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    Implying those who do not feel inclined to live by the Spirit are not sons of God.
     
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