Faith plus Works...how do you know if your doing enough works?

St_Worm2

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As usual, managing to the exceptions. We believe that children under the age of reason are already in God's mercy. We also believe that there are many who are invincibly ignorant of God's mercy, who will not be held accountable for a lack of action. And before you jump on another word, ignorance is not an insult. We're all ignorant of things.

Hi again RoJ, I realize what you mean when you use the word "ignorance" in this case. I'm actually not attacking you here (sorry if it seems that way), I'm just trying to wrap my mind around what you (and many Protestants for that matter) believe (and why you believe it).

Back to what you just wrote, what is the difference between a child who is baptized and is therefore "in God's mercy", and one who isn't baptized and yet, is "in God's mercy"? IOW, does one have an advantage with God that the other one does not?

Thanks!

--David
 
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Root of Jesse

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Hi again RoJ, I realize what you mean when you use the word "ignorance" in this case. I'm actually not attacking you here (sorry if it seems that way), I'm just trying to wrap my mind around what you (and many Protestants for that matter) believe (and why you believe it).
Please accept my apology...
Back to what you just wrote, what is the difference between a child who is baptized and is therefore "in God's mercy", and one who isn't baptized and yet, is "in God's mercy"? IOW, does one have an advantage with God that the other one does not?

Thanks!

--David
God gives mercy to everyone. It's very hard to understand. You, as Calvinist, me as Catholic, Abdul, as Muslim, the native aborigine in Australia or South America or Africa. We all receive grace and mercy to the degree we're capable. It's more about us being the receptor than how much God confers on anyone. Regarding children, under the age of reason, they're incapable of receiving God's mercy. Of course, those of us who believe in infant baptism think it's somehow 'better' to have it done soon to ensure the baby's ascension.
 
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St_Worm2

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Please accept my apology...

Accepted, but no apology was needed. You continue:

Regarding children, under the age of reason, they're incapable of receiving God's mercy. Of course, those of us who believe in infant baptism think it's somehow 'better' to have it done soon to ensure the baby's ascension.

But if all babies, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc., are "in God's mercy" prior to the "age of reason", are they not all "ensured" of ascension? Why the need for paedobaptism then?

I have a Catholic friend who told me as a little girl in church she was shown three pictures (well, her Sunday School class was anyway). The first was a picture of a baptized baby, the second picture was of an un-baptized baby, and the third, simply a picture of a rock. The children were then supposed to pick the picture they believed God loved most.

Does God love a baptized baby more than one who hasn't been?

Also, there is the CCC which comments about paedobaptism saying:

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have 'need' of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would 'deny a child the priceless grace' of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth. (403; 1996)

What does this mean if all infants are, as you have said, "in God's mercy", until the age of reason?

Again, I apologize if it seems like I am trying to back you into a corner personally. I'm not. I'm simply trying to understand what the RCC believes about paedobaptism and why.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
 
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Root of Jesse

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Accepted, but no apology was needed. You continue:



But if all babies, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc., are "in God's mercy" prior to the "age of reason", are they not all "ensured" of ascension? Why the need for paedobaptism then?
We believe that Baptism is the gateway to Christian life. It's a great thing. So let's get it done right away. While it is the gateway, it's not the end. There's years of education, but Baptism is the first step.
I have a Catholic friend who told me as a little girl in church she was shown three pictures (well, her Sunday School class was anyway). The first was a picture of a baptized baby, the second picture was of an un-baptized baby, and the third, simply a picture of a rock. The children were then supposed to pick the picture they believed God loved most.
You're kind of dating yourself. This approach seems pre-1960s. And it's not the attitude of the Church that God loves anyone more or less. God is love, so there cannot be more or less. That methodology is dated.
Does God love a baptized baby more than one who hasn't been?
No.
Also, there is the CCC which comments about paedobaptism saying:

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have 'need' of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would 'deny a child the priceless grace' of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth. (403; 1996)

What does this mean if all infants are, as you have said, "in God's mercy", until the age of reason?
You know a car can run along seemingly fine without an oil change, but it can benefit greatly from one, yes? We believe in God's mercy, but we have a responsibility as parents to see that our children are cared for. Baptism is one thing we must do.
Again, I apologize if it seems like I am trying to back you into a corner personally. I'm not. I'm simply trying to understand what the RCC believes about paedobaptism and why.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
No worries, David, your questions are sincere.
I have a question about Baptist baptism, as well.
My mother and father had me baptized as an infant in the Evangelical and Reformed Church. Later they renounced that denomination, and journeyed, eventually to Southern Baptist. Recently she told me she was sorry she had me baptized as a child because it meant I couldn't make my own decision. I had to tell her that parents make lots of decisions for children before they're capable of making them for themselves, and that I considered my infant baptism valid and true. She also told me of the many times she's been baptized in pools, and tanks, and so on, because she felt the spirit to do so. I wonder why Baptists believe that you can be baptized over and over....
 
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FreeGrace2

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So many questions, when it's right in front of your face, yet so little time. Let me turn them around a bit...
Regarding the Holy Spirit, are you saying that you don't have to believe everything God taught about himself to be saved?
I am saying nothing more than what Scripture says about how to be saved. John 20:31 is clear enough: "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

From Jesus Himself: ‘Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He (the Messiah), you will die in your sins.” John 8:24

So you can take it or leave it, as long as you say you believe?
Salvation has never been about what people say they believe, but only what they believe. What they say is irrelevant.

Hint: Satan believes that God is Lord and master of the universe, yet he is not saved.
Immaterial. That belief isn't saving faith. Yet, even the fallen angels know that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. But because there is no evidence that Jesus died for any angels, it isn't saving faith for them.

In fact, Satan is a perfect example of a being that turned away from God, and will never be allowed back.
He's actually no example at all. Trying to compare angels with humans is like comparing apples to oranges.

Regarding the Prodigal Son, if you don't see the wayward son as in danger of dying (physical in the parable, spiritual in its meaning), you need to revisit what it says.
In that parable, it began with him being the son, he remained a son throughout the parable, and it ended with him still a son. That was never in doubt. Yes, someone needs to revisit what it says, but it's not me.

Regarding the man who persevered, then faltered, vs the man who committed evil and then repented, do some legwork. Lots of people, by the way, have faith from the day they're born. They're brought up by their parents, who represent them until they're capable. None of this "Let them make up their own minds" stuff.[/QUOTE]
 
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Root of Jesse

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I am saying nothing more than what Scripture says about how to be saved. John 20:31 is clear enough: "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

From Jesus Himself: ‘Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He (the Messiah), you will die in your sins.” John 8:24
Except that there's so many chapters and verses that tell us what we must do after we believe in order to be saved...
Salvation has never been about what people say they believe, but only what they believe. What they say is irrelevant.
So you can believe something contrary and not be saved. Thanks.
Immaterial. That belief isn't saving faith. Yet, even the fallen angels know that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. But because there is no evidence that Jesus died for any angels, it isn't saving faith for them.


He's actually no example at all. Trying to compare angels with humans is like comparing apples to oranges.


In that parable, it began with him being the son, he remained a son throughout the parable, and it ended with him still a son. That was never in doubt. Yes, someone needs to revisit what it says, but it's not me.

Regarding the man who persevered, then faltered, vs the man who committed evil and then repented, do some legwork. Lots of people, by the way, have faith from the day they're born. They're brought up by their parents, who represent them until they're capable. None of this "Let them make up their own minds" stuff.
Being a child of God is never the question. It's being saved. Had the young man been content to live on stolen pods from the swill of pigs, he would not have been welcomed back into his Father's house.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Except that there's so many chapters and verses that tell us what we must do after we believe in order to be saved…
I don't believe that because I've never found any. In fact, think about Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was direct and clear: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Nothing about what he MUST DO after he believed.

So you can believe something contrary and not be saved. Thanks.
Once a person believes, they have eternal life, which is a gift of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable.

Being a child of God is never the question. It's being saved.
Here's the facts. A child of God is saved. And all saved persons are children of God. They are inseparable.

Had the young man been content to live on stolen pods from the swill of pigs, he would not have been welcomed back into his Father's house.
I don't deal with any "what if's…..", but only the "what is's….". We have to deal with what Jesus said about the parable, and not second guess it.
 
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St_Worm2

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You're kind of dating yourself.

At my age I find that is extremely easy to do .. :p You continue:

This approach seems pre-1960s. And it's not the attitude of the Church that God loves anyone more or less. God is love, so there cannot be more or less. That methodology is dated.

Late 50's or very early 60's, you're right, as she is just a year or two younger than me, that's when my friend would have had these choices presented to her as a young child in Sunday School.

Here's the other one that she clearly remembers. Her priest at that time came into her Sunday School class one day and told all of the children there to "NEVER read the Bible because Martin Luther sent millions of souls to Hell with it" .. :eek: I'm guessing the RCC doesn't teach that in SS anymore either, right?

Of course, if these two beliefs are simply "dated", the question then becomes, why did they ever believe and teach these "truths" to our kids to begin with .. :scratch: You continue:

I have a question about Baptist baptism, as well. My mother and father had me baptized as an infant in the Evangelical and Reformed Church. Later they renounced that denomination, and journeyed, eventually to Southern Baptist. Recently she told me she was sorry she had me baptized as a child because it meant I couldn't make my own decision. I had to tell her that parents make lots of decisions for children before they're capable of making them for themselves, and that I considered my infant baptism valid and true. She also told me of the many times she's been baptized in pools, and tanks, and so on, because she felt the spirit to do so. I wonder why Baptists believe that you can be baptized over and over....

Wow, I have no idea .. :scratch: I can imagine that someone like your Mom, if she came to saving faith as an adult in a Southern Baptist church, might want to be baptized a second time to follow the Biblical principle of "repent and be baptized" (e.g. - Acts 2:38). I can also understand a denomination, like the Baptists, who believe that paedobaptism is meaningless, recommending a second baptism in a case like your Mom's.
But to have it done over and over and over again .. :mmh: I can't believe any denomination would promote or even allow that.

I'll ask a pretty knowledgeable Southern Baptist friend of mine if she's ever heard of or experienced anything like that before and see what she has to say.

Yours in Christ,
David
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't believe that because I've never found any. In fact, think about Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was direct and clear: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Nothing about what he MUST DO after he believed.

What Paul is doing is giving a short answer, and trusting that the jailer will want to seek out other Christians to find out more about Jesus and to participate in their common life. He in no way is endorsing some kind of individualistic, revivalistic view of salvation, since elsewhere Paul talks about things that are normative for Christians to do.

Once a person believes, they have eternal life, which is a gift of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable.

You're really hung up on that, even though Paul was talking about a whole nation of people (Israel), not an individual.
 
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FreeGrace2

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What Paul is doing is giving a short answer, and trusting that the jailer will want to seek out other Christians to find out more about Jesus and to participate in their common life.
None of which involves his salvation. Paul was clear and to the point: believe in Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Period. Many verses teach this. Of course it is normative for new believers to seek out other Christians to find out more about Christ and participate in the Christian life. But that doesn't always occur.

He in no way is endorsing some kind of individualistic, revivalistic view of salvation, since elsewhere Paul talks about things that are normative for Christians to do.
More conflation here. Paul WAS teaching that salvation IS individual. What is meant by 'revivalistic view of salvation'?

I said this:
"Once a person believes, they have eternal life, which is a gift of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable."
You're really hung up on that, even though Paul was talking about a whole nation of people (Israel), not an individual.
What's wrong with being "really hung up" on what Scripture says? Nothing.

That Paul wasn't addressing an individual is immaterial. He was making a statement about God's gifts, which is that they are irrevocable.

Nothing of what he wrote about Israel in ch 9, 10 and 11 was defined or described as a gift. Paul DID define what he meant by gift previously; spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23. It is THESE gifts that Paul had in mind, along with his readers, when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. There is NO OTHER CONTEXT for what he meant by gift.
 
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FireDragon76

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You're using spurious logic and a single Biblical quote to try to support a "Once Saved Always Saved" theology that the Bible just doesn't support, especially outside of a Calvinist context.

Revivalism is the belief that salvation is about your choice to believe in Jesus. Some even teach that once you make that choice, you are "once saved always saved". It makes salvation into a single event, rather than a process. Salvation is also separated from the gathered, Christian community or church altogether, in favor of a consumeristic view of churches, where they are viewed primarily as services to the individual and strictly optional.
 
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Wordkeeper

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The Christian life is described as a journey, a process.

How can a person be saved?

By believing on Christ, you and your family.


What does believing on Christ do? It takes you out of the influence of all that which is not of God and puts you under the influence of all that which is of God. When Israel left Egypt and was taken out of the influence of the world and was exposed to God. She drank from the Rock and the Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not pleased and they wandered in the desert till they died, without entering rest.


If she was not under the influence of the world, but under the influence of God, would that not put a stamp on her as belonging to God?

We should not forget that it is not only our peers who influence us but also our own appetites. The drive to possess resources, relationships, power, sometimes even desiring the property, life partners the prestige belonging to others, covetousness. God wanted the Israelites to abandon all these appetites, even the desire for self preservation and direct all their loyalty to Him, and He had given them enough reason to do so. However, only Joshua and Caleb acquired this spirit. Of all the adults that left Egypt, only these two entered the Promised Land. The children were later tested and they had the advantage of not growing up in Egypt and passed God's test of loyalty, a lesser test.

Becoming a Christian and going to church is the equivalent to drinking from the Rock. Children have a great advantage in growing up influenced by exposure to God's teachings and facing a lesser test, provided they are taught right.

Baptism is the recognition of the switch of loyalty from world and self to God. Apart from coming into contact with God's teaching, this repentance, change of outlook , mindset , also is accompanied rewarded by the giving of the Holy Spirit. Are children given the Spirit? Clearly the Spirit is given only on belief, and children have no personal belief, following only in the footstep of the family. However the exposure to instruction and influence from God gives them a distinct advantage in deciding to be loyal to God: isolation from worldly influence, exposure to God's instruction, easier testing.

However it's important that teaching is coherent and comprehensive. Instruction that involves much incomplete conclusions, dogmatism, fideism, mystery and paradox will have an unfavorable influence on children and when they finally are able to have critical reasoning abilities, are able to think for themselves, they WILL notice those illogical and incomplete teachings that ignore the clear instructions in the Bible.

The text clearly lays out what is expected and what results, on right action.

Reflect, weigh the issues, choose to follow God. This is belief. Choosing and exhibiting loyalty to God. Leading to the sanctification of our spirits, which then places them with Christ in high places. Now the same must be done with the body. Luther saw the Christian life as a series of confessions, so his theology was truly faith based. However, just as the baptismal confession resulted in salvation of our spirits, the agreement, con fess ion, with God's opinion, that our bodies were in need of rejuvenation led to the sanctification of the body. This is where actions, good works, the transformation of the nature of our bodies is required. That is why Luther valued the sacraments. When observed, God responded. Be baptised. God gives his Spirit. We are justified. Confess God gives His Spirit, we are sanctified. This is how we start with faith and continue with faith, not by works. Luther truly was against works of the law, something Wright, Dunn and Sanders fail to understand.

Putting to death the deeds of the body was confessing that we possessed a sinful body, and in confessing, agreeing with God about this fact, Christ is faithful and cleanses us of all unrighteousness. Walking in the light is the walking in the spotlight of God's holiness, which reveals those unrighteous attributes.

If we refuse to confess, but cling on.to those desires of the flesh, justifying their place in.our lives, we will die. Our bodies will not be sanctified and enjoy the comprehensive resurrection, the better resurrection that Paul writes about. In fact, persistent returning to the flesh life leads to banishment from fellowship with God and His people, handing over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that even though the body may be destroyed, the spirit may be saved, but as through fire.

Does putting to death the deeds of the body through confession lead to sanctification. Not really . Paul states that he pleaded with God to remove the remaining thorn on his flesh, but God wanted to remind him that it was grace that saved and that that grace was sufficient for acceptance.

So to summarise, agreement with God, loyalty, is what is needed, not a required amount of work, the total removal of all fleshly desires. Its the attitude, not the state.
 
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com7fy8

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I was wondering those who believe Faith and works together saves us, how do they know if they are doing ENOUGH works?

And what works would all be included?
I used to do things I was told would guarantee that I would go to Heaven. But I kept doing more, just to make sure.

But > James 2:24 does say,

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

Ones say not to do works, yet ones might tell you to say a prayer for Jesus to save you. Saying a prayer is a work, isn't it?

But what I think this is really about is doing works which have us submissive to God and how He effects us with His love while we do what He has us doing with Him in His love. This love effects us to become more like Jesus so we are ready to spend eternity with Him >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

His love effects us so we become right like His love > this is included in being
"justified" > to be made just or right, in our nature, like God's love is right. This comes with doing works of God's love so this love is curing our nature while we do works in this love.

So, which are these works? Not copy-cat church things or things we can get ourselves to do, but whatever God in us personally guides us to do, for us to discover as we live in submission to Him. We need how God's grace makes us submissive so we can do this with Him. So, it is first about grace . . . His action succeeding in us to make us truly submissive in His love >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

So, these are works done in the
"gentle and quiet spirit" so pleasing to our Father. These are not self-forced practices and sacrifices, but we are sacrificed to being gentle and quiet in Jesus love so we are even pleasing to God like Jesus on the cross was sweetly pleasing > "a sweet-smelling aroma" a this is in Ephesians 5:2 which commands us to follow this example of Jesus on the cross :)

So, if our sacrifices are in stress and burn-out and guilt, these do not justify us. But we need to submit to Jesus and His yoke >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, the works and sacrifices which justify are those done in His "rest for your souls."

As we exercise in submitting to Him in His love, and doing only what He personally guides us to do in His rest, our exercising in this love makes us stronger in love . . . which is what I mean by being justified . . . becoming more and more right the way His love makes us right in real loving, maturing in His rest.

It is like how a little child needs to have wholesome activities to do in sharing with mature people who know how to be and relate in love. As the child does things with a loving person, the child feeds on the example of the person's character and manner of relating interpersonally.

But if you babysit a child with TV and a pile of toys and video games, the child is not learning how to love. And the child can bond with those things instead of with you, and then the child won't listen to you, "later", since he or she never bonded with you and your voice and example.

Like this, we need to do things with Jesus . . . including so we do not listen to what is not coming in His "rest for your souls." :) This is included in being "justified": how we become right with God, in learning to listen only to Him :)

And this comes only with doing works with Him, not with toying around with religious copy-catting and arguing for beliefs and practices.

Prayer in the Holy Spirit helps with this >

"praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God" (in Jude 20-21)

If we pray in the Holy Spirit, this means we are submitting to how and what the Holy Spirit has us praying. And this is exercising us in God's own love, while we are exposed to how the Holy Spirit is in us as our example of how to be and pray and love. So, works in union with God's Holy Spirit are crucial, in His love >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

In Jesus, we all are
"one spirit with" Jesus in our hearts. And He in us shares with us how He is, more and more, as we keep doing works in obedience and intimate sharing with Him . . . so intimate that we are "one spirit with Him." So, this being "justified by works" includes becoming more and more intimate with our Groom Jesus while we do His works in sharing with Him.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You're using spurious logic and a single Biblical quote to try to support a "Once Saved Always Saved" theology that the Bible just doesn't support, especially outside of a Calvinist context.
I'm not a Calvinist, so my view is strictly found within Scripture. Second, I've never used just 1 verse to support eternal security. There are many that state eternal security very clearly, unlike the conditional security view, in which there are absolutely no verses that tell us or warn us that we can lose our salvation.

btw, please take me through the process of showing how my logic is "spurious". That is just a claim, or actually, just an opinion. If your claim is valid, it should be easy to show me how my logic is "spurious". Much more likely is the fact that when a point can't be refuted, all that's left is to attack the point (calling it spurious).

John 6:51 tells us that those who are given eternal life will live forever. A promise by Jesus Himself.
John 10:28 tells us those given eternal life will never perish, same as John 3:16.
Romans 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 define justification as a gift of God. Rom 6:23 defines eternal life as a gift of God.
Romans 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Paul didn't define anything else as a gift of God prior to 11:29, so we have to look at what he defined as a gift to understand what he was referring to in 11:29.

Revivalism is the belief that salvation is about your choice to believe in Jesus.
If it isn't a choice, then it's just pre-determined who will believe or not? That seems to be the only alternative. So, where does the Bible teach that idea?

Some even teach that once you make that choice, you are "once saved always saved".
Because of all the verses that say so.

It makes salvation into a single event, rather than a process.
I think you've conflated spiritual growth, or sanctification, with salvation. It is our sanctification that is a process, and a lifelong one at that.

But, please show me the verse that says that our salvation is a process rather than a single event.
 
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Wordkeeper

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I used to be a free grace supporter, and know that fg accuses Calvinist doctrine of backloading salvation by works:


http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/freegrace.html


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Some charge that, by stating all Christians will inevitably show fruit in their lives, we are requiring works as a condition for salvation. The free grace teachers call this "backloading the gospel".



They claim that fruit, good works, ARE required, but only for rewards, over and above salvation.


However, the text clearly shows that good works, putting to death the deeds of the body, is required for the REDEMPTION of the body. Nobody wants to enter the afterlife with a bodi-less spirit, which has been saved, but as through fire.



Romans 8:12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I used to be a free grace supporter, and know that fg accuses Calvinist doctrine of backloading salvation by works:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/freegrace.html

Quote

Some charge that, by stating all Christians will inevitably show fruit in their lives, we are requiring works as a condition for salvation. The free grace teachers call this "backloading the gospel".

They claim that fruit, good works, ARE required, but only for rewards, over and above salvation.

However, the text clearly shows that good works, putting to death the deeds of the body, is required for the REDEMPTION of the body.
If good works are required for salvation (redemption of the body), then Rom 8:23 directly contradicts what else Paul wrote:
Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Eph 2;8,9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Nobody wants to enter the afterlife with a bodi-less spirit, which has been saved, but as through fire.
Where is any warning of entering eternity with "a body-less spirit"?
 
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com7fy8

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I think the Bible is saying that if a person trusts in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12), God's works are guaranteed to happen . . . not required but guaranteed.

Because Isaiah 55:11 says God's word "shall accomplish" what He pleases. His word will work, then > all that God Himself desires, for salvation and the works included . . . all that God Himself means.

And Paul is clear that what we need is "faith working through love." (in Galatians 5:6) So, the faith of true salvation works, through God's own love which has us working, whatever God produces that He knows His word means.

And so, this means works of God's love which is gentle and humble and with "rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:29)

So we rest in Him (Psalm 37:7) and how He has us laboring in His love > Colossians 1:28-29.
 
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Wordkeeper

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If good works are required for salvation (redemption of the body), then Rom 8:23 directly contradicts what else Paul wrote:Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,Eph 2;8,9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Paul is not setting off good works against faith, but human effort against loyalty.

Good works or a good outcome is a result of loyalty, not independent action. God promised that Abraham would father a son. Now Sarah tries to independently bring this outcome to fruition, but the results are disastrous. However, the son born to Abraham as a result of belief, being loyal to God, taking His promise to be true, that son was a blessing.


You see the same situation at Sinai. The works of the law was what Israel asked God for, when He had already promised that He would bring to fruition the promise that the world would be redeemed through Abraham's Seed . What was the righteousness of their own? Works of the law. What was the righteousness of God? Believing God would save. The Gentiles who did not have the law possessed this righteousness, BECAUSE they did NOT have the law! They tried to be good failed and turned to God. The Jews possessed the law and spent 2000 years trying to figure out how it tied with the promise to Abraham.



Paul rebukes the believers in Galatia for pursuing sanctification through works of the law, noting that the works of the law despised and persecuted grace, just as Ishmael did Isaac. He instructs them to drive away the son of slavery, works of the law, since it would always works against grace, the son of promise.


Now is belief towards sanctification , waiting on God passively for the putting to death of the deeds of the body, now in force as a result of the Cross, a gift, just as Abraham was required to wait passively for Isaac to be born, again a gift, is that belief "work". It it is, then Abraham's faith, belief, passive expectation, was also "work".


The point is, the redemption of the body is THE gift. This gift was what ADAM was destined to receive, being only a living soul, This gift now available to believers, because Christ was a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT WANT THE WHOLE PACKAGE?

Where is any warning of entering eternity with "a body-less spirit"?


It's more than just entering the afterlife without a body.


The spirit is seated with Christ in high places, upon believing in Him, demonstrated in requesting baptism, just as you decide to take sides, by wearing the uniform of a side, confederate or yankee, communist or freemarket, royalist or roundhead. A gift, through the power of the Holy Spirit.


The body waits to be redeemed, upon believing in Christ's promise, that whoever mixes with Him, eats of His flesh and drinks of His blood, waits upon Him, abides in Him, will have a share of Him, He being the first fruit.


However, however, if we live according to the flesh, we will DIE. Paul teaches that the person who continues to grieve the Spirit is in danger of losing the redemption of his spirit too. His solution is to neutralise the body, which has become a liability, by handing it over to Satan.


1 Corinthians 5:5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 
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