Faith plus Works...how do you know if your doing enough works?

[yogosans14]

I was wondering those who believe Faith and works together saves us, how do they know if they are doing ENOUGH works?

And what works would all be included?

 

[agua]

Luk 17:5-10 KJV And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. (6) And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. (7) But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? (8) And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? (9) Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. (10) So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 

[football5680]

Obedience to God is your works and it is not something that needs to be or can be quantified. For a Christian there should be no separation between works and faith.

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:17)

Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. (John 14:23)

 

[Albion]

I was wondering those who believe Faith and works together saves us, how do they know if they are doing ENOUGH works?

And what works would all be included?

There's no reason to wonder what you'll get back after asking this question. It will be one of the following:

1. We don't know.

2. Everything is a work and God doesn't quantify these things.

3. Silence.

But the fact remains that those churches DO teach that each work earns grace towards salvation like a bank account. And you can lose it all if you commit a mortal sin, by the way. So it's strange that no one can locate a member who can tell you which works are worth more than others or how many are needed in order to earn salvation.

 

[sdowney717]

There's no reason to wonder what you'll get back after asking this question. It will be one of the following:

1. We don't know.

2. Everything is a work and God doesn't quantify these things.

3. Silence.

But the fact remains that those churches DO teach that each work earns grace towards salvation like a bank account. And you can lose it all if you commit a mortal sin, by the way. So it's strange that no one can locate a member who can tell you which works are worth more than others or how many are needed in order to earn salvation.

I suppose do they balance the good works against the bad works in a scale and whatever side wins out is your eternal destiny? With Jesus sitting at the fulcrum point I suppose.

Teeter-totter, swing one way, your saved, swing the other your damned, swing back again your saved, swing the other agan your damned.

 

[High Fidelity]

Just my personal opinion, but I think works should be synonymous with faith(Even if works aren't a prerequisite for salvation, my opinion).

 

[Albion]

I suppose do they balance the good works against the bad works in a scale and whatever side wins out is your eternal destiny? With Jesus sitting at the fulcrum point I suppose.

Well, no. It's more like a board game in which you accumulate chits or property but lose it all at the first stumble--in this case, Mortal Sin. Then you can start again. The key is to have enough stuff at the moment of death and to anticipate when that is. Otherwise, you go to hell. If you guess correctly, and have done enough "good" since the last Mortal Sin was forgiven, you to Purgatory to be punished, perhaps until the end of time, for having committed those sins in the first place, and of course for minor ("Venial Sins") that were not confessed and forgiven.

 

[sdowney717]

Well, no. It's more like a board game in which you accumulate chits or property but lose it all at the first stumble--in this case, Mortal Sin. Then you can start again. The key is to have enough stuff at the moment of death and to anticipate when that is. Otherwise, you go to hell. If you guess correctly, and have done enough "good" since the last Mortal Sin was forgiven, you to Purgatory to be punished, perhaps until the end of time, for having committed those sins in the first place, and of course for minor ("Venial Sins") that were not confessed and forgiven.

The ancient Egyptians said a god would weigh the human heart in a scale against a feather. I wonder how many ancient Egyptians went to their deaths with hearts feeling lighter than a feather instead of a rock.

All of these philosophies are what I consider pagan ideas of doing good works to earn yourself a place with God in heaven.

Even in the OT God said this
Hab 2
4 “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.

No works, God in the OT, Christ in the NT and all the apostles teach by works no one is justified which means saved. Many believe justification is a work we must do.

 

[Albion]

The ancient Egyptians said a god would weigh the human heart in a scale against a feather. I wonder how many ancient Egyptians went to their deaths with hearts feeling lighter than a feather instead of a rock.

All of these philosophies are what I consider pagan ideas of doing good works to earn yourself a place with God in heaven.

Yes, but I was saying that it's not an accurate way of representing the Roman Catholic view of the thing since the church doesn't teach that the bad that we do will be weighed against the good that we do...and the weightier side decides where we are sent in the afterlife.

My own stance is with Scripture, which as you know and have stated, holds that works do not "count towards" salvation at all.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I was wondering those who believe Faith and works together saves us, how do they know if they are doing ENOUGH works?

And what works would all be included?

Jesus, our Lord, summed it up in these words, "When you have done all you have been commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants; we have done what we were obliged to do.'" (Luke 17:10)

 

[Optimax]

The works James spoke of are the corresponding actions (works) that go with faith.

When works are a part of what is required to be saved.

No one would be saved.

Why?

Because no matter how much anyone does.

They always could have done just a little bit more.

 

[yogosans14]

The works James spoke of are the corresponding actions (works) that go with faith.

When works are a part of what is required to be saved.

No one would be saved.

Why?

Because no matter how much anyone does.

They always could have done just a little bit more.

 

[sdowney717]

Yes, but I was saying that it's not an accurate way of representing the Roman Catholic view of the thing since the church doesn't teach that the bad that we do will be weighed against the good that we do...and the weightier side decides where we are sent in the afterlife.

My own stance is with Scripture, which as you know and have stated, holds that works do not "count towards" salvation at all.

I know thank God for that!

Anyone that holds to our works as being what earns us heaven is believing in a false gospel, may God have mercy!
It is like dishonoring Christ and what He accomplished regarding salvation.

Plenty of people believe good works is the way to heaven but Christ said only He is the way to the Father in heaven, there is no other way to God.

 

[yogosans14]

I know thank God for that!

Anyone that holds to our works as being what earns us heaven is believing in a false gospel, may God have mercy!
It is like dishonoring Christ and what He accomplished regarding salvation.

Plenty of people believe good works is the way to heaven but Christ said only He is the way to the Father in heaven, there is no other way to God.

Amen. i love the reformers view on salvation

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus view is best.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. John 15:1-10

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus view is best.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. John 15:1-10

Abiding in Christ, you will naturally bear fruit, since your are made into the good tree and good tree's bear good fruit while bad trees bear bad fruit.

Unless you bear good fruit to God, you will be cut down, ripped out by the roots and thrown into the fire.

Hypocrites are not planted by God, they will be uprooted.

Matthew 13
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[e] honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”[f]
10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”


Every plant not planted by God, so that means everyone who is not a saved, chosen son of the kingdom whose Father is God Almighty, lord of heaven and earth, are blind, dead, will be uprooted and thrown into hell fire.

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

God makes the tree, but the tree by it's nature bears the fruit.

Matt 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart[g] brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

God makes the good tree and the bad tree, but the tree makes the fruit. Out of the treasure of the heart speaks the mouth. The good tree from the good treasure in the heart is regenerate, a planting of the LORD, the bad one is not regenerated, is a son of hell. So you see that men sin their own sins, God does not make them sin, they bear their own bad fruit by their nature. But those that do the good works prepared beforehand for them to do, they do so by the power of God working in their life.

 

[yogosans14]

Abiding in Christ, you will naturally bear fruit, since your are made into the good tree and good tree's bear good fruit while bad trees bear bad fruit.

Unless you bear good fruit to God, you will be cut down, ripped out by the roots and thrown into the fire.

Hypocrites are not planted by God, they will be uprooted.

Matthew 13
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[e] honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”[f]
10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”


Every plant not planted by God, so that means everyone who is not a saved, chosen son of the kingdom whose Father is God Almighty, lord of heaven and earth, are blind, dead, will be uprooted and thrown into hell fire.

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

God makes the tree, but the tree by it's nature bears the fruit.

Matt 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart[g] brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

God makes the good tree and the bad tree, but the tree makes the fruit. Out of the treasure of the heart speaks the mouth. The good tree from the good treasure in the heart is regenerate, a planting of the LORD, the bad one is not regenerated, is a son of hell. So you see that men sin their own sins, God does not make them sin, they bear their own bad fruit by their nature. But those that do the good works prepared beforehand for them to do, they do so by the power of God working in their life.

Amen. Sadly so many misinterpet this verse to mean if your not doing good works youll go to Hell.

 

[Wordkeeper]

We know that we have done enough good works when those who see us see Christ in us:

1 Peter4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

 

[Nanopants]

Typically we are talking about works of obedience, but I don't think that this is always the case biblically:

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” -John 6:28, 29

Ok. What sort of works is this talking about? Works of the law? Unlikely, if Paul was right about what he said in Rom 9:32. Because what is referred to here are the "works of God," I think the these people wanted to be doing the works of God, as in miracles, just like Christ.

I also remember the numerous accounts of works in the Gospels carried out by people seeking Christ. These were not works of obedience, law or even miracles, yet they were frequently praised and rewarded, and not for the work itself (which would be nonsensical) but for the faith behind them. I think it is simply a given that we do not stop doing things in general when we begin to believe.

At the very least, I think this shows a need to disambiguate works, and what scripture describes, in my opinion, is a change in works, wrought through faith, as outlined by the following points:

-Those who believe will perceive God's glory (John 11:40)

-We are transformed from glory to glory (2 Cor 3:18)

-He who believes is born of God (1 John 5:1)

-The Father shows all things He does to the Son (implying that the Son perceives the glory of the Father), the Son does what the Father does, and I presume in unison (John 5:19)

Although faith without works may be dead, considering that He is our righteousness, it's my position that neither "works" nor righteousness are contingent upon themselves.

 

[sdowney717]

Typically we are talking about works of obedience, but I don't think that this is always the case biblically:

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” -John 6:28, 29

Ok. What sort of works is this talking about? Works of the law? Unlikely, if Paul was right about what he said in Rom 9:32. Because what is referred to here are the "works of God," I think the these people wanted to be doing the works of God, as in miracles, just like Christ.

I also remember the numerous accounts of works in the Gospels carried out by people seeking Christ. These were not works of obedience, law or even miracles, yet they were frequently praised and rewarded, and not for the work itself (which would be nonsensical) but for the faith behind them. I think it is simply a given that we do not stop doing things in general when we begin to believe.

At the very least, I think this shows a need to disambiguate works, and what scripture describes, in my opinion, is a change in works, wrought through faith, as outlined by the following points:

-Those who believe will perceive God's glory (John 11:40)

-We are transformed from glory to glory (2 Cor 3:18)

-He who believes is born of God (1 John 5:1)

-The Father shows all things He does to the Son (implying that the Son perceives the glory of the Father), the Son does what the Father does, and I presume in unison (John 5:19)

Although faith without works may be dead, considering that He is our righteousness, it's my position that neither "works" nor righteousness are contingent upon themselves.

That verse is quite a play on words that reveals an amazing truth.

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” -John 6:28, 29

The work of God is that you become a believer!
John 6 also shows that all those God draws, come to Christ.

34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

V36 and 37 shows us the difference between those who do not believe and those that do. That is the work of God in the life of a person, why they become a believer, Christ tells us in v37.

Same thing Christ says in John 17.