Faith or Predestination

[Tolworth John]

The unsaved, nonbeliever is not of his own power casting satan off nor is he enabling himself to receive the gift, but everyone has the ability to accept the invitation (just as they all could accept the King's invitation to the banquet) even while you are a child of satan.

If a slave of Satan cannot of his own power or ability cast of the hold Satan has on him/her.
What power enables them to look to Jesus?

 

[Tolworth John]

Clearly God has made it possible for me or anyone to receive the gift of salvation by offering it to whosoever will believe and receive it. I really don't understand your point or what you are trying to say.

What you have just written is that Jesus predestined you to be saved.
God made it possible for you and I to recieve the gift of salvation. You or I did not ask for it or deserve it.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

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So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

Does one drive a car by applying the brake or applying the accelerator? It can't be both. Pick one.

False dilemma. I believe you already got your answer:

As the bible says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. eph 2:8+9

By grace.

Through faith.

Not of yourself, but a gift from God.

Not by works.

I'll take the Biblical position; thank you.

Next thread on the Calvinism debate begins in twenty minutes, thirty seconds....

 

[bling]

If a slave of Satan cannot of his own power or ability cast of the hold Satan has on him/her.
What power enables them to look to Jesus?

It is not that they are turning to join Jesus, but they have the free will and power to just turn away from obeying briefly (in times they come to their senses) satan, they of their own free will choose in the simple form of giving up, wimping out as one of his soldiers and surrendering to their enemy God (at this point of surrendering God is still their enemy).
The nonbeliever is not a puppet or robot of satan but still has free will enough to briefly stop (come to his senses and make a choice to accept or reject God's charity, this is like the prodigal son).

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

As the bible says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. eph 2:8+9

By that verse it is both faith and predestination.

As the bible says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. eph 2:8+9

By that verse it is both faith and predestination.

It is a recent common mistranslation to make faith the "gift" in Eph 2:8 and thereby link it to the Calvinist theories on predestination. However, faith as the gift is unsupported by the grammar in the Greek (nor is it supported by the context.)

'Faith' and 'grace' are in the feminine gender, but the gift of God is in the neuter gender. In Greek, this then applies the 'gift' to the entire clause - that salvation is a gift by grace and through faith.

What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

The process is given in even more detail in Rom 3:22-26: Righteousness is given through faith to all who believe. We are justified by grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God displayed Christ publicly (grace) as a propitiation (atoning sacrifice) whose blood is applied to us through faith.

We only have the offer of salvation because of grace. Because we could not save ourselves, God the Father in his mercy and grace sent His only begotten Son to die for the ungodly as propitiation, an atoning sacrifice, on behalf of our sins. (Rom 3:25, Rom 5:6-8, Rom 5:15-17, John 12:32, John 3:14-17). Salvation is by grace (Rom 11:6), not works, so that man can never boast. (Rom 6:19-23, Eph 2:8-9, Is 63:4-5, Rom 8:1-4, Acts 13:39, Phil 3:7-9, etc.) How great a salvation is this! It does not come by our merit, but by God's grace. It does not come through our dead works, but through our belief in the Messiah (John 6:28-29, John 3:16). It is a salvation beyond the capacity of man to achieve or offer.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

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Does one drive a car by applying the brake or applying the accelerator? It can't be both. Pick one.

False dilemma. I believe you already got your answer:



By grace.

Through faith.

Not of yourself, but a gift from God.

Not by works.

I'll take the Biblical position; thank you.

Next thread on the Calvinism debate begins in twenty minutes, thirty seconds....

Faith is not the gift in Eph 2:8. Faith and grace are in the feminine gender, the 'gift of God' in the neuter gender. In Greek this applies the gift to the whole clause.

It is our salvation that is a gift by grace and through faith. What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

We only have the offer of salvation because of grace. Because we could not save ourselves, God the Father in his mercy and grace sent His only begotten Son to die for the ungodly as propitiation, an atoning sacrifice, on behalf of our sins. (Rom 3:25, Rom 5:6-8, Rom 5:15-17, John 12:32, John 3:14-17). Salvation is by grace (Rom 11:6), not works, so that man can never boast. (Rom 6:19-23, Eph 2:8-9, Is 63:4-5, Rom 8:1-4, Acts 13:39, Phil 3:7-9, etc.) How great a salvation is this! It does not come by our merit, but by God's grace. It does not come through our dead works, but through our belief in the Messiah (John 6:28-29, John 3:16). It is a salvation beyond the capacity of man to achieve or offer.

As for the car analogy, the difference between whether one needs to receive the message in faith or whether a select few are just given faith is not the difference between accelerator and brake, but the difference between needing to accept the gracious offer of car keys/title for a car one didn't pay for and enter the car to begin driving vs. being forcibly placed in the driver's seat and informed that one now owns a car that is already moving down the street.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

If a slave of Satan cannot of his own power or ability cast of the hold Satan has on him/her.
What power enables them to look to Jesus?

The gracious power of God given to all men allows all men to look to Jesus, even though they cannot break their own chains. For example:

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” - John 3:14-15

The Israelites could not cure their own poison, but they could look up and see the snake and receive healing for their affliction.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." Jn 3:16-18

This revelation of Christ was given to the world because God loved the world and sought to save the world through Christ.

"This is is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." - Jn 3:13-21

It wasn't that some couldn't see the light - they just loved living in evil more than seeking to live in truth.

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." Jn 1:9
"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men." Jn 1:4

"And He is the effulgence of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb 1:3

Etc.

Jesus is the effulgence of God's glory that allows mankind to see the Father and come into the light (much as the rays of the sun allow us to see the sun even though we have no way to reach it and are dependent on it for life.)

So it is the revelation of Christ which gives the slave the power to know of and trust in Christ's work on His behalf so that he might be saved.

"And now he has made all of this manifest to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior. He broke the power of death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the Good News." II Tim 2:10

"Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith." Rom 16:25-26



Another analogy might be that of a criminal unable to pay his sentence/debt, but who can accept the gracious pardon of the judge (which includes admitting his guilt) if one is offered. Nothing in his crime or continued crimes means he cannot see or accept a pardon if offered - though he might still refuse the pardon if he believes he has committed no crime.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

What you have just written is that Jesus predestined you to be saved.
God made it possible for you and I to recieve the gift of salvation. You or I did not ask for it or deserve it.

Jesus graciously offering salvation in His blood and the Father graciously creating a way for us to be saved (receiving the message and responding to the gospel in faith) is not the equivalent of the Calvinist teachings on irresistible grace or predestination; not the equivalent to the idea that Jesus simply gives some people faith and not others; not equivalent to the theory that some people are just unable, despite all the graces of God, to respond in faith without an extra regeneration by the Holy Spirit; etc.

One point of agreement or a single shared premise does not automatically extend to more particular view points or an equivalent conclusion. All Christians, Calvinist or not, would agree that we neither asked for nor deserved salvation and that Christ's coming to bring salvation was an act of grace.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

Part of the problem with terms like 'predestination' is that they can be defined very differently by different groups.

For example, most Calvinists teach the view that the term predestination refers to God selecting a few outside of any factor, including faith, to be part of His kingdom (the elect). They then vary on the particulars (some believing those elect will be granted faith outright by Jesus so they can be saved, others holding that the Spirit regenerates those few so they can have faith; still others holding that the elect are already saved so the Spirit just lets them know they are already saved and that is what faith really is; etc.

Yet this use of the term is not universal, and doesn't actually fit well with the Greek term itself, nor scripture as a whole.

In scripture, the term 'predestination' deals with God’s omnipotence and omniscience. The word itself means to “to mark out beforehand’; to pre-establish limits and boundaries. (It isn't actually related to the English connotations of the word ''destiny")

Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation. He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc), set the rules by which deliverance and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25), etc.

In the plan of salvation, God also predestined it to include the gentiles, not just the Jews (Eph 3:2-12, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, Rom 9:11-16, etc).

So to get back to your original question - salvation is through faith in Christ, as that is the method God in His sovereignty and grace willed. Predestination comes in as God predestined that all those with faith would become His true people. If you have faith, you are part of the elect. There is no other method, such as being specially chosen by God outside of faith, whereby one can just be chosen or 'destined' for salvation. However, God does have the foreknowledge of who will respond in faith and even of who will endure in faith until the end. As such, He treats future believers as part of His kingdom from the beginning of time - much as Jesus is treated as 'the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.' Much of the debate over particular verses can be traced back to a disagreement on whether the verse is from God's eternal perspective outside of time or man's perspective traveling through time.

Are we predestined to know Christ?
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
How does predestination work as described by scripture?
Does Rom 9 mean God predestined some to heaven while created others with no chance of escaping hell?

 

[disciple1]

The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

I believe love covers a great many sins, like it says in 1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8

And a person is only born of God through love, if faith doesn't express itself in love it's worthless.


Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Is it faith or predestination?

Like some people have said before me. It's a false dichotomy.

It's not either or. It's both.

Faith is always necessary for justification before God.

Election and or predestination in and of itself saves no one. They must exercise saving faith.

Whether a person has the ability to exercise such faith in and of themselves or needs a special hand up from God is a moot point.

It happens that fallen man does need that helping hand in the form of what Reformed theologians call "special calling". The Bible is crystal clear about that.

It happens that no sinner deserves that helping hand but only judgement for his sins. Any helping hand from God which is offered is purely of grace.

I happens that God decided before the foundation of the world just who He would give that undeserved helping hand to when the time came and who He would justly pass by and leave to the judgement they so richly deserved because of their sins.

The very nature of God and His omnipresent providential involvement in His creation at every conceivable level (as clearly taught in the scriptures) demands that any logically reasoning Bible believer acknowledge that God predestined all that happens in His creation.

The Bible is also clear that such predestination in no way negates the free choices of man and that man is rightly held responsible for those choices both good and bad.

Therefore the question posed in that last sentence of the OP is a false dichotomy.

It's faith made possible by grace just as it was predestined to occur in the lives of believers before the foundation of the world.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Like some people have said before me. It's a false dichotomy.

Whether a person has the ability to exercise such faith in and of themselves or needs a special hand up from God is a moot point.

It happens that fallen man does need that helping hand in the form of what Reformed theologians call "special calling". The Bible is crystal clear about that.

It happens that no sinner deserves that helping hand but only judgement for his sins. Any helping hand from God which is offered is purely of grace.

It is hard to support a claim that the Bible is 'crystal clear' on any issue where the church is divided about 50/50, and even harder to assert it without giving any scripture reference for it.

For topics like this, it is good to start from the point at which most Christians would agree.

For example, most Christians would agree that man cannot earn salvation or merit it via good works (Rom 3:20.) Most would agree that our flesh was corrupted by sin at the fall; that sin corrupts every aspect of our being, such as flesh, heart, mind, etc, (Mark 7:21-23). We'd agree that all men sin (Rom 3:10-23), and we'd agree that man cannot save himself (Psalm 60:10-12, Is 63:5-6).

We would also agree that man, of his own volition, would not have been able to achieve salvation nor come up with the idea of needing to have faith in Christ on His own.

Yet here is where many theories depart from each other.

Calvinism, for example, goes beyond these agreed upon points about the depravity of man to claim that man is so tainted by sin that he cannot even accept the offer of Christ’s salvation and receive Christ's deliverance from sin (contrary to scripture, which asks us to receive the message and believe: Rom 10:9-13, John 3:14-21, Luke 11:5-13, Heb 11:13-16, Gal 3:24, Deut 30:11-14, etc, and makes no claim that this is something man cannot do).

Because they take this philosophical stance, most Calvinists hold that something else needs to happen for a select few to have faith: Some believe it is spiritual regeneration that must occur *before* one believes to allow the person to believe (contrary to scripture which states we receive the Holy Spirit after we believe, not before: Gal 3:2-3, Gal 3:10-14, Eph 1:11-14, II Cor 5:17, etc). Others hold that Jesus just grants a select few faith (a misinterpretation of Eph 2:8 - see What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?). Still others take the view that the Holy Spirit overwhelms a select few, basically convincing them by sight so they can't possibly doubt.

The Bible is not 'crystal clear' that any of these variant theories are true. The term 'special calling' is not used in scripture.

What scripture does say is that Christ came into the world to 'enlighten every man,' that God revealing salvation through Christ is an act of grace, that Jesus draws all things (including all people) to Himself via His death, that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, etc. All these things are acts of grace that man might turn from his sin and to Jesus in faith, so that he might be saved.

Here are just a few of the many specific acts of grace that God has given to all men:

Grace is Christ; the gift of God; God revealed. (Heb 1:3, I Cor 1:4-5, John 4:10)
Grace is Jesus coming to enlighten every man (Jn 1:9)
Grace is salvation offered to all people in Christ: (Titus 2:11, John 12:3-33, Matt 4:12-17, Psalm 67:1-3)
Grace is salvation granted through faith (Eph 2:8-10, Rom 5:1-2, Joel 2:32), not by works of law.
Grace is Christ delivered to death that we might live: (Rom 4:25, Gal 2:20-21, Rom 5:6-8)
Grace is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in regards to sin and righteousness and judgement: (Jn 16:8)
Grace is the preaching of the gospel throughout the nations that some might hear and believe (Rom 10)
Grace is Jesus drawing all things to Himself by His death, that we might come to Him (Jn 12:32)
Grace is Jesus opening the door to any who seek Him
Etc.

And further graces are given to believers:

Grace is the gift of justification; being declared righteous; through Christ: (Rom 5:12-19)
Grace is pardon from God's wrath, and reconciliation with God: (Rom 5:6-11)
Grace is eternal life granted to those who believe: (John 3:16-17, Rom 6:23, John 1:1-3)
Grace is the Holy Spirit dwelling with us: (Acts 19:2, Eph 4:30, I Cor 6:19)
Grace is our transformation as a New Creation, growing up into the headship of Christ: (Gal 6:16, II Cor 5:17, Col 3:5-11)
Grace is our adoption as sons: (Gal 4:4-6, Rom 8:15))
Etc.

We merit none of those graces. The promises God gives to believers for later fulfillment are His guarantee out of grace that He will make good on His Word - not because we merit it, but because it is the covenant He made in His wisdom and righteousness.

Related topics:
What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?
What are the doctrines of grace?
Can natural, fallen man do anything that is spiritually good?

I happens that God decided before the foundation of the world just who He would give that undeserved helping hand to when the time came and who He would justly pass by and leave to the judgement they so richly deserved because of their sins.

As posted above, God gave many graces to man (not by our merit or works, but for His own glory by His own will and purpose) which all men may respond to in faith. Just as any of the plagued Israelites could look upon the snake, by the grace of God, so any man can look upon Christ and receive the message, responding in faith so that he might be justified. That there are men who refuse to do this because they love their own sin or refuse to come into the light doesn't mean they weren't given the grace to do so. Christ fulfilled and gave everything necessary for our salvation by His death.

The very nature of God and His omnipresent providential involvement in His creation at every conceivable level (as clearly taught in the scriptures) demands that any logically reasoning Bible believer acknowledge that God predestined all that happens in His creation.

It's a huge difference between believing, as scripture teaches, that God is sovereign over all Creation and believing that God specifically picks and chooses everything that happens. (An idea which God specifically rejects in passages such as Jer 19:5, Jer 32:35, James 1:13, etc.)

Nor does accepting what the Bible teaches on God's sovereignty and predestination mean that one must logically accept what Calvinism or other theories of man interpret those terms to mean.

Here are some topics that dive into predestination and God's sovereignty in depth:
How does God's sovereignty and mankind's free will work together in salvation?
Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
Are we predestined to know Christ?

To briefly summarize the crucial differences, however, 'predestination' in scripture is a Greek term that means to set limits or boundaries. It doesn't imply the connotations of the English term destiny. The laws of nature are a great example of this: God predestined that the sea could only move so far, that molecules are bound by His laws, etc. God's sovereignty is tied into this as the laws of nature are bound to His will, and He can supersede them if needed. Other tasks he might delegate to angels or men, who He created with the capacity (though not permission) to disobey, although they too are bounded by the limits of their nature and capabilities. While God often defers judgment when we disobey, that doesn't mean He allows our disobedience or caused it. [Does God allow moral evil?]

Just as someone disobeying a king will face judgement for breaking the law, so will humans unless we take the offered pardon (faith in Christ, where God applies Jesus' righteousness to us.)

The Bible is also clear that such predestination in no way negates the free choices of man and that man is rightly held responsible for those choices both good and bad.

I would agree with this.

Therefore the question posed in that last sentence of the OP is a false dichotomy.

The last sentence was "receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?" That's not a false dichotomy, since scripture gives the answer:

Scripture says we receive salvation through faith. (Rom 3:25, Jn 3:16, Gal 3:2-5, Eph 2:8, etc.) Even Eph 1:1-15 clarifies that salvation is through hearing the gospel and believing and never says we are saved through being predestined.

It's faith made possible by grace just as it was predestined to occur in the lives of believers before the foundation of the world.

Faith is made possible by grace as God predestined. Specifically, though, God predestined believers to be adopted as sons into His kingdom, and to be Holy and blameless, etc. since before time began. (Eph 1:1-15) He didn't predestine some to become believers and some not.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

View media item 55849
Forget it, Calvin. You're still going to get punished for breaking that Ming vase.

The Bible is also clear that such predestination in no way negates the free choices of man and that man is rightly held responsible for those choices both good and bad.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Ezekiel 33:1-9

Just as I said.

"Man is rightly held responsible for those choices both good and bad."

However, the passage does not address predestination.

 

[Tolworth John]

The gracious power of God given to all men allows all men to look to Jesus, even though they cannot break their own chains

When did God deside to give sinners this power?

Does the idea that God planned yours and my salvation from before he begain creation worry you.

Either God planned our salvation or everything is God making it up as he goes along.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Only on Christian Forums would so many words be written over a question-begging OP...

 

[bling]

When did God deside to give sinners this power?

God gave man an earthly objective and the ability to obtain the power (Love) which can allow man to fulfill the mission statement of: “Love God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy?

Does the idea that God planned yours and my salvation from before he begain creation worry you.

God planned away for all lost to be saved, but did not force salvation (charity/Love) on them, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun and Love would not be obtained by the lost individual and it would not be Loving on God’s part.

Either God planned our salvation or everything is God making it up as he goes along.

NO! Not at all! God is doing or allowing all He can to the greatest detail to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective. What God allows or causes includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death, and even man to sin.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

When did God deside to give sinners this power?

Does the idea that God planned yours and my salvation from before he begain creation worry you.

Either God planned our salvation or everything is God making it up as he goes along.

Those are philosophical questions and speculations, not scripture. It doesn't matter what Earthly philosophy comes up with, but what God states in scripture.

Scripture never states that man cannot hear the gospel and respond in faith, or that Christ's work on the cross was insufficient for man to have faith, or that there was lack of evidence to persuade humans that the gospel is true, etc.

Conversely, Scripture does say:

- Jesus draws all men to Himself by His death (Jn 12:32)
- Faith comes by hearing, and the message is heard through the word about Christ (Rom 10:17)
- That God's command to love Him and seek Him heart and soul and obey is not beyond our reach (Duet 30:10-18)
- that man is required to have faith if he wants to do 'the work that God requires' of us (Jn 6:27-29)
- The Bereans received the message with eagerness and tested it against scripture and as a result many of them believed
- Those with a noble and good heart hear the word and retain it and persevere (Lk 8:15)
- Some receive the word but are choked by the cares of the world and fall away (Lk 8:14)
Etc.

Nowhere is a claim made that man cannot have faith, while many cases of people responding in faith or God asking us to believe in Christ are given.

As to our salvation, God planned salvation from the beginning (Sending Christ to die, that salvation would be through faith in Christ's blood, etc.) Because He planned that salvation would be through faith, He also in His wisdom planned that all those of faith would be adopted as Sons, justified, etc. And because of His foreknowledge, He has known these individuals since before time began.
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

God isn't making it up as He goes along - He is outside of time and knows the end from the beginning. That's a far different concept than the deterministic theory that God isn't intelligent or powerful enough to deal with finite variables and so must pick every variable Himself before it happens or His plan will derail.

 

[lesliedellow]

The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

Your own post points to there being no contradiction between predestination and salvation through faith in Christ; unless you think faith is something different from "believe the Gospel."

 

[RisenInJesus]

Your own post points to there being no contradiction between predestination and salvation through faith in Christ; unless you think faith is something different from "believe the Gospel."

According to the scriptures: Faith is believing the gospel for salvation.
According to Calvinism: Predestination is one predetermined or chosen to be regenerated and enabled to believe for salvation.

The scriptures state that salvation is a gift from God available to whosoever believes or places faith in Christ. Salvation is received by faith.
Calvinism states that salvation is a gift of God available only to those who are predestined. Salvation received by predestination.