Faith or Predestination

Si_monfaith · Sep 18, 2017

Jennifer Rothnie said:
Faith is not a gift. Salvation, by grace and through faith, is a gift. All the evidence we need for faith is a gift. The very opportunity for us to respond to the gospel in faith is a gift.

Faith itself, however, is what God requires of us (Jn 6:28-29) - not a dead work we could never achieve, but a receptive response to the work of Christ.

"For by your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…" Rom 10:9

Sheep is not another word for 'elect,' by the way. The symbology of sheep is used throughout the Old Testament for the people of Israel. Even within the sheep, there were bad sheep (Ezek 34:20-21,) and being a sheep did not guarantee salvation in all cases (Zech 11, Rom 11:7.)

Jesus makes a number of parables in Jn 10, each with different focuses and points.

When a symbol is commonly found in scripture (trees, eagles, sheep, leaven, seas, etc.) it might not always have the same exact meaning (context will generally give what is being compared, however) - nor is every prophecy or parable using a similar symbol giving the same point. That is why it is very difficult (and not recommended) to insist that a symbol means a particular concept and then build a doctrine off of that self-proclaimed interpretation.

Jesus is clear in Jn 10 that the only way to be saved is to come through the gate - Himself. Sheep outside the gate do not hold salvation - though they may once they follow the Shepherd through the gate. Gaining access to the fold another way (like hopping a fence) doesn't make one part of Jesus' sheep.

Jesus' prophecy of the two flocks becoming one is described further in Rom 11:17-24

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

"and being a sheep did not guarantee salvation in all cases (Zech 11, Rom 11:7.)".

Israel refers to the elect not the biological descendents of Abraham. Sheep doesn't refer to the biological descendents of Abraham.

" the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"
The natural branches that were cut off in the past 2000 years are already in hell along with the rich man who pleaded for Lazarus to be sent to his brothers. Will they be brought out of hell to be grafted again?
You have misunderstood the passage.

InterestedApologist · Sep 18, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
"you just refuse to address my response".

Nonsense. All have been addressed. You have to state how consistent your view is to God's nature.

I asked 5 direct questions and in return received only questions, redirections or assumptions on what I believe. Not a single yes or no response or direct answer. Saying you have answered does not make it so. Furthermore, I see no reason to respond to your question when you refuse to address my points, and since this thread centers around the Calvinist view of salvation, my doctrine isn't under the microscope.

Si_monfaith said:
John 6:
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Nothing can be more clear than the above.

Interesting. These disciples were lost but following Jesus up to that point. Does this not violate TULIP's total depravity? How is this a clarion call of your position? It seems to directly conflict with your view....

SBC · Sep 18, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
"For many are called, but few are chosen."

So you agree that only those whom God chooses will have the gift of faith among all who hear.

To say "only those whom God chooses" WITHOUT, "why", is deceptive, imo.

God made the first move - man has choices.
Thereafter, so does God make choices; whom He will call, choose, impart particular gifts, etc.

1 John 4
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.

God Bless,
SBC

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

SBC said:
To say "only those whom God chooses" WITHOUT, "why", is deceptive, imo.

God made the first move - man has choices.
Thereafter, so does God make choices; whom He will call, choose, impart particular gifts, etc.

1 John 4
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.

God Bless,
SBC

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Is God obligated to say to you as to why He chose some and didn't choose others?

Are you accusing His will as deception?

You said: "God made the first move - man has choices".
Reply: He made the first move to choose but not all.
What choice man has? Without knowledge and assurance can man make any choice? He cannot.

SBC · Sep 19, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
You agree that faith is a gift. God is the giver of the gift. But all do not have the gift. So God hasn't given the gift to some.

Correct.

[/QUOTE]That is why some don't believe in His Son Jesus.[/QUOTE]

No.

Some people, FOR THEIR OWN REASONS, "choose" to not believe Jesus is True.

Some people, FOR THEIR OWN REASONS, "choose" to believe Jesus IS TRUE.

Belief is the acceptance Jesus is True. <--- mans choice.
Faith is Trusting the Belief of True. <--- gift from God for mans choice.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC · Sep 19, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Is God obligated to say to you as to why He chose some and didn't choose others?

Obligated? That would be something you are wondering, not me.

I already KNOW, I was given the OPTION to choose, for whatever reason as MY own basis, to BELIEVE or NOT.

It is that simple.

God does NOT MAKE ME BELIEVE.
God DOES give me the OPTION to Believe or to Not Believe.
It is the SAME OPTION, everyone is given.

You have the ability to PICK your own standing.

yea or nay
yes or no
in or out
up or down
with or without

Are you accusing His will as deception?

No.
That would be you wondering deception and you implying an accusation of deception.

You said: "God made the first move - man has choices".

Correct. God loves all men. God loved all men BEFORE any man loved Him.
Correct. All men can choose, to Love God, or not.

Reply: He made the first move to choose but not all.

False.
God loves ALL men. God chose to love ALL men.

It's simple.
Choose God, He will Choose you.
Choose you, not God. God will ALSO, not Choose you.

What choice man has? Without knowledge and assurance can man make any choice? He cannot.

Who is "He" who is "without knowledge"? (that you seem to be advocating FOR).

Mark 16
[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Who is "He" who is "without knowledge"? (that you seem to be advocating FOR).

God Bless,
SBC

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

SBC said:
Correct.

That is why some don't believe in His Son Jesus.[/QUOTE]

No.

Some people, FOR THEIR OWN REASONS, "choose" to not believe Jesus is True.

Some people, FOR THEIR OWN REASONS, "choose" to believe Jesus IS TRUE.

Belief is the acceptance Jesus is True. <--- mans choice.
Faith is Trusting the Belief of True. <--- gift from God for mans choice.

God Bless,
SBC[/QUOTE]

In conditional election you claim that God knows beforehand who will accept His Son.

Do you believe that God's elect will certainly accept Jesus Christ?

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

SBC said:
Obligated? That would be something you are wondering, not me.

I already KNOW, I was given the OPTION to choose, for whatever reason as MY own basis, to BELIEVE or NOT.

It is that simple.

God does NOT MAKE ME BELIEVE.
God DOES give me the OPTION to Believe or to Not Believe.
It is the SAME OPTION, everyone is given.

You have the ability to PICK your own standing.

yea or nay
yes or no
in or out
up or down
with or without

No.
That would be you wondering deception and you implying an accusation of deception.

Correct. God loves all men. God loved all men BEFORE any man loved Him.
Correct. All men can choose, to Love God, or not.

False.
God loves ALL men. God chose to love ALL men.

It's simple.
Choose God, He will Choose you.
Choose you, not God. God will ALSO, not Choose you.

Who is "He" who is "without knowledge"? (that you seem to be advocating FOR).

Mark 16
[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Who is "He" who is "without knowledge"? (that you seem to be advocating FOR).

God Bless,
SBC

John 6:45: Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Father has already given knowledge of His Son to the elect. Only such people can come to Jesus. Example: Centurion in Mathew chapter 8.

Preaching the gospel justifies none. God has already justified the elect through the blood of His Son. Preaching only communicates the good news.

When the elect hear the good news, God gives them the assurance (faith - Romans 10:17). Then they come to Jesus and start meditating (believing), confessing and proclaiming Jesus in turn (Acts 9:20: And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God).

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

John 6:45: Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Father has already given knowledge of His Son to the elect. Only such people can come to Jesus. Example: Centurion in Mathew chapter 8.

Preaching the gospel justifies none. God has already justified the elect through the blood of His Son. Preaching only communicates the good news.

When the elect hear the good news, God gives them the assurance (faith - Romans 10:17). Then they come to Jesus and start meditating (believing), confessing and proclaiming Jesus in turn (Acts 9:20: And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God).

2tim_215 · Sep 19, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
So who produces faith in man? God or man?

Reference 1Timothy 1:14

Romans 12:3(KJV) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The answer is, of course God. But if you think that this proves "predestination" according to Calvin, I believe you'd be wrong. God gives each of us a certain "measure" of faith (how He determines the amount He give each of us I don't know) but I do know it's at least enough to get us started.

We also know that Jesus told us that if we had the faith the size of a mustard seed, we could move mountains (I know this is figurative but we can still take it in a literal sense as it conveys to us the power of faith) but how many here have been able to make mountains move (I know I haven't) the point being that no matter how much faith the Lord bestows us with, it's enough to bring us towards Him.
measure - G3358 μέτρον metron met'-ron
An apparently primary word; a measure (“metre”), literally or figuratively; by implication a limited portion (degree):—measure.

Now does our faith stop there or is it supposed to grow. Even the disciples asked for their faith to increase (see Luke 17:5). So yes, God is the one who gives us faith to start with (he tells us that it is by grace we are saved, through faith), but even that too is a gift from God and not of our own should anyone boast. But even so, it is then up to us to allow our faith to grow (this is part of our perfection by God throughout our entire lives) and one way to insure that it does grow is to stay in the Word and to pray to God for this to take place and He is faithful to perform it.

One of the biggest problems with predestination is that it would not allow free choice and if that were the case, there'd be no point to this at all. God might as well choose His select few and forget about the rest of it but that's not what He wants and not what He intended. He wants people who choose to be with Him, not someone who is forced to. Hope this helps. Be blessed.

SBC · Sep 19, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
John 6:45: Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:45
[45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

With the FULL text - you can see, precisely what I spoke of. KNOWLEDGE - heard - taught - learned IS who comeths to the Father.

Father has already given knowledge of His Son to the elect.

No kidding. It is called the WORD OF GOD.

Only such people can come to Jesus. Example: Centurion in Mathew chapter 8.

No kidding. Example - "never heard of God, but guess, I'll go to Him".... duh!

Preaching the gospel justifies none.

Who said it does? Preaching is one way of HOW people HEAR about God.

God has already justified the elect through the blood of His Son.

Christ's BLOOD "OFFERS" forgiveness TO ANYONE WHO "CHOOSES" to believe and accept "his OFFERING'.

Preaching only communicates the good news.

Already established. Gods WORD is absolutely given by God, though methods He has determined, that it be distributed.

When the elect hear the good news,

When ANYONE hears AND BELIEVES AND submits "then" they KNOW they are Gods elect.

God gives them the assurance (faith - Romans 10:17).

Yep, already established.

Then they come to Jesus

Jesus IS the WORD of God.
IF they heard, learned, believed the Word of God - received faith - THEY already came to Jesus.

God Bless,
SBC

2tim_215 · Sep 19, 2017

Romans 10:12-21(KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Doesn't sound like predestination to me. Sounds like we need to call on Him and I don't see any restrictions on who can call.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
I don't think that one will call unless they believe to a certain degree. And how can you believe on something or someone that you haven't heard anything about. No one I believe comes out of the womb as a believer. They will either be taught by their parents or someone else somewhere along the line. And who will that someone be? A preacher.
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

As an interesting side note to this. Look at what God said about preaching:
1 Corinthians 1:17-31(KJV)
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Paul's mission (he says) was to preach the gospel not just the elect, but to the entire world (as was the disciples Great Commission, not to just the elect. Jesus said that He came to this earth to minister to the lost, not those who were already saved.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
After telling us how He despises those men who believe themselves to be so wise, that He chose the foolish method of "preaching" to be the way to bring men salvation.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
I believe that the Greeks represent science.
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Called - an invitation
called -G2822 κλητός klētos klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint:—called.
I believe this is something we choose, whether or not we choose to accept the invitation and is not something that we are predestined to do.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

2tim_215 said:
Romans 12:3(KJV) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The answer is, of course God. But if you think that this proves "predestination" according to Calvin, I believe you'd be wrong. God gives each of us a certain "measure" of faith (how He determines the amount He give each of us I don't know) but I do know it's at least enough to get us started.

We also know that Jesus told us that if we had the faith the size of a mustard seed, we could move mountains (I know this is figurative but we can still take it in a literal sense as it conveys to us the power of faith) but how many here have been able to make mountains move (I know I haven't) the point being that no matter how much faith the Lord bestows us with, it's enough to bring us towards Him.
measure - G3358 μέτρον metron met'-ron
An apparently primary word; a measure (“metre”), literally or figuratively; by implication a limited portion (degree):—measure.

Now does our faith stop there or is it supposed to grow. Even the disciples asked for their faith to increase (see Luke 17:5). So yes, God is the one who gives us faith to start with (he tells us that it is by grace we are saved, through faith), but even that too is a gift from God and not of our own should anyone boast. But even so, it is then up to us to allow our faith to grow (this is part of our perfection by God throughout our entire lives) and one way to insure that it does grow is to stay in the Word and to pray to God for this to take place and He is faithful to perform it.

One of the biggest problems with predestination is that it would not allow free choice and if that were the case, there'd be no point to this at all. God might as well choose His select few and forget about the rest of it but that's not what He wants and not what He intended. He wants people who choose to be with Him, not someone who is forced to. Hope this helps. Be blessed.

Romans 9

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

SBC said:
John 6:45
[45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

With the FULL text - you can see, precisely what I spoke of. KNOWLEDGE - heard - taught - learned IS who comeths to the Father.

No kidding. It is called the WORD OF GOD.

No kidding. Example - "never heard of God, but guess, I'll go to Him".... duh!

Who said it does? Preaching is one way of HOW people HEAR about God.

Christ's BLOOD "OFFERS" forgiveness TO ANYONE WHO "CHOOSES" to believe and accept "his OFFERING'.

Preaching only communicates the good news.[/QUOTE]

Already established. Gods WORD is absolutely given by God, though methods He has determined, that it be distributed.

When ANYONE hears AND BELIEVES AND submits "then" they KNOW they are Gods elect.

Yep, already established.

Jesus IS the WORD of God.
IF they heard, learned, believed the Word of God - received faith - THEY already came to Jesus.

God Bless,
SBC[/QUOTE]

You aren't still sure that the elect of God will certainly accept Jesus.

SBC · Sep 19, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
You aren't still sure that the elect of God will certainly accept Jesus.

You aren't qualified to speak FOR Me.

God Bless,
SBC

2tim_215 · Sep 19, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
Romans 9

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
We see that when God hardened Pharaoh's heart. He did that because He knew that Pharaoh's heart was hardened towards God's people (they Jews). Pharaoh had many opportunities to listen (and even turn) to to God but continuously turned Him down and God in His infinite knew that Pharaoh wouldn't and would not allows the Jews to escape so He sealed the matter. Even He was given the opportunity but refused to take it.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

I believe that what Paul is saying here is he's putting it to those who might question God and how they could have the audacity. The word "fault" here means "blame" in the Greek. So in the context here (he's referring to Moses, the Jews and Pharaoh, are you blaming God for Pharaoh's demise, did He cause him to turn against God (actually kind of relates to this discussion)? Did God already pre-determine that Pharaoh would respond the way he did? No. To add to that premise, Paul follows it up "Who can "resist" (stand against, oppose in the Greek) his will (or purpose, also in the Greek). And of course the answer is no one. But here Paul (as he did many times) was just being rhetorical . But look at how Paul replies:
Romans 9:20-24(KJV) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
He answers his own question. Nay (or no). And then asks who it is who has the nerve to contradict or dispute God. What's interesting is that we see a lot of this on this forum, those who are anti-God and anti-Bible and they attempt to use scriptures such as this to rail on God as being unfair and arbitrary. If anyone knows the type of person Pharaoh was and the way he treated the Jews and lack of respect for the almighty God, they could see why God did what He did. But regardless, who are we to question God's judgment. He is righteous, He is Holy, He is just and He must judge (which I believe is His strangest work).
repliest- G470 ἀνταποκρίνομαι antapokrinomai an-tap-ok-ree'-nom-ahee
From G473 and G611; to contradict or dispute:—answer again, reply against.
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
These next verses might give someone what they feel might be evidence for predestination but I think not. Paul is not presenting another form of argument that he frequently use, a hypothetical. A hypothetical is say what if . . . (God in this case) were to do this? It does not mean that He did it this way. What Paul is just saying that if He did so, He'd have a right to since He is God and He did create us.
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
He refers now to those who have rejected Him and do evil to those who accept Him.Even those evil people, who are on the path to damnation (as was Pharaoh) He were long suffering to (that is patient, not evoking his wrath when He'd be justified in doing so (since He already knows that they won't repent) even though He desires to destroy them, waits patiently before He punishes them? What about that?
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Do you know that in the Book of Revelation, the dead Saints who are in heaven, cry "how long, how long" before God turns His wrath on the wicked on this earth? Yet the Bible tells us in Peter how He is long suffering and not willing (desiring) that anyone should perish.
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Do you also realize that there was a time when no Gentile believe that they could be saved? Yet there were a few and God would open up the door to all men and women. That can't be a God has already predetermined whosoever would and whosoever won't although I believe that (in Pharaoh's case) it was pretty obvious that he'd never change. And even so, God still gives people a chance to hopefully someday figure it out.

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

SBC said:
You aren't qualified to speak FOR Me.

God Bless,
SBC

So what I said was true because only those who aren't sure that God's elect will certainly be saved, consider the act of believing a huge hurdle.

Only when one is unsure of God's elected people being certainly saved, he/she trusts in their will. That is the logical consequence.

Only God can deliver such people according to His will.

Si_monfaith · Sep 19, 2017

2tim_215 said:
I believe that what Paul is saying here is he's putting it to those who might question God and how they could have the audacity. The word "fault" here means "blame" in the Greek. So in the context here (he's referring to Moses, the Jews and Pharaoh, are you blaming God for Pharaoh's demise, did He cause him to turn against God (actually kind of relates to this discussion)? Did God already pre-determine that Pharaoh would respond the way he did? No. To add to that premise, Paul follows it up "Who can "resist" (stand against, oppose in the Greek) his will (or purpose, also in the Greek). And of course the answer is no one. But here Paul (as he did many times) was just being rhetorical . But look at how Paul replies:
Romans 9:20-24(KJV) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
He answers his own question. Nay (or no). And then asks who it is who has the nerve to contradict or dispute God. What's interesting is that we see a lot of this on this forum, those who are anti-God and anti-Bible and they attempt to use scriptures such as this to rail on God as being unfair and arbitrary. If anyone knows the type of person Pharaoh was and the way he treated the Jews and lack of respect for the almighty God, they could see why God did what He did. But regardless, who are we to question God's judgment. He is righteous, He is Holy, He is just and He must judge (which I believe is His strangest work).
repliest- G470 ἀνταποκρίνομαι antapokrinomai an-tap-ok-ree'-nom-ahee
From G473 and G611; to contradict or dispute:—answer again, reply against.
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
These next verses might give someone what they feel might be evidence for predestination but I think not. Paul is not presenting another form of argument that he frequently use, a hypothetical. A hypothetical is say what if . . . (God in this case) were to do this? It does not mean that He did it this way. What Paul is just saying that if He did so, He'd have a right to since He is God and He did create us.
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
He refers now to those who have rejected Him and do evil to those who accept Him.Even those evil people, who are on the path to damnation (as was Pharaoh) He were long suffering to (that is patient, not evoking his wrath when He'd be justified in doing so (since He already knows that they won't repent) even though He desires to destroy them, waits patiently before He punishes them? What about that?
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Do you know that in the Book of Revelation, the dead Saints who are in heaven, cry "how long, how long" before God turns His wrath on the wicked on this earth? Yet the Bible tells us in Peter how He is long suffering and not willing (desiring) that anyone should perish.
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Do you also realize that there was a time when no Gentile believe that they could be saved? Yet there were a few and God would open up the door to all men and women. That can't be a God has already predetermined whosoever would and whosoever won't although I believe that (in Pharaoh's case) it was pretty obvious that he'd never change. And even so, God still gives people a chance to hopefully someday figure it out.

Do you believe in conditional election?

Si_monfaith · Sep 20, 2017

InterestedApologist said:
I see. You need to have a label for what I believe so you can try to discredit me, or you can just try to slap one on me like you are doing now. I am not hiding what I believe, but this thread isn't about what I believe, it's about TULIP Calvinism and how it relates to salvation. To that end, I have asked very simple questions which you have hidden from. I can only assume that you hide from these questions because you are insecure in what you profess to believe, or you know that the answers to my questions will show TULIP in an unfavorable light. Interestingly, no other Calvinists have responded either, which seems to be the trend among them as a whole.

FWIW, I am a Biblical Christian. I believe what the Bible says stands on its own. I think that Calvinists and Armenians lock onto their systems of belief and then filter the Bible so it agrees with that system. Completely understandable, but if parts of that system conflict with the Word, I believe the honest Christian should be willing to examine themselves to see if they are holding onto something because it is truth, or because it is simply comforting.

I understand the appeal of TULIP. God orchestrates everything, actively and constantly controlling every little detail of life. No guilt to deal with since whatever you have done was controlled and ordained by him from the beginning of time, whether good or evil. No need to worry about real evangelism, as God has already decided who to save and guarantees they cannot refuse. The comfort of being hand picked by him. I know the Calvinists will now jump all over me for "misrepresenting" what they believe, but this is the logical effect of TULIP. I am open to hearing how I am misunderstanding it, but to date, no one has ever addressed it with me in a reasonable way.

No one identified as a Calvinist or those who know about unconditional election should or will answer a single question of yours unless you state your position on the meaning of the word "elect".

Apologetics means defense of a position. So I think you will clarify your position on the meaning of the word " elect".

Then we can know whether you are really not an arminian as you claim to be.

The trick of throwing stones at the ideas of others while holding on to ideas which are totally false and concealing them at the same time will not work any longer.

InterestedApologist · Sep 20, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
The trick of throwing stones at the ideas of others while holding on to ideas which are totally false and concealing them at the same time will not work any longer.

Then stop using it.

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