Faith in Lutheran understanding

[dms1972]

Could someone explain Luther's understanding faith with maybe a few quotes?

As I far as I can gather from some books on the subject he saw faith as God's work. Did he then believe that a person's shift from confidence in his own righteousness, to confidence only in Christ's righteousness comes about by God's work in their soul?

 

[JohnB445]

Its all about the faith.

Faith comes first. Then the Holy Spirit does the rest from there.

And some straw mans a lot of people bring up. No Lutherans are not claiming we can abuse the grace.

 

[dms1972]

You say its all about the faith, but how does Luther understand faith. What way is the Gospel presented? I am not looking to find fault, just want to understand how these things are understood in Lutheranism.

What sort of things would I hear in a Lutheran sermon? Is it always Gospel preaching?

 

[Babe Ruth]

What sort of things would I hear in a Lutheran sermon? Is it always Gospel preaching?

72, hi..
I'm only speaking for my (ELCA)Lutheran Church.. we have a couple Biblical readings that precede the sermon. The last is always from the Gospel. Then the sermon elaborates on that Gospel scripture ~

 

[tampasteve]

Could someone explain Luther's understanding faith with maybe a few quotes?

I think these help, let me know if you need more or a better explainaition:
""Night and day I pondered until I saw the connection between the justice of God and the statement that 'the just shall live by his faith.' Then I grasped that the justice of God is that righteousness by which through grace and sheer mercy God justifies us through faith. Thereupon I felt myself to be reborn and to have gone through open doors into paradise."

This one is long, but probably helps: (from HERE)
"Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith.........Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words."

What sort of things would I hear in a Lutheran sermon? Is it always Gospel preaching?

In general, a good "Lutheran" sermon will include instruction on the Law and the Gospel. The Law convicts and shows us the way, the Gospel saves - both are necessary for without the conviction of the Law we know not what the Gospel is. On any given Sunday one will hear a sermon based on the readings for the week, current events, etc. It just depends.

 

[FireDragon76]

Could someone explain Luther's understanding faith with maybe a few quotes?

As I far as I can gather from some books on the subject he saw faith as God's work. Did he then believe that a person's shift from confidence in his own righteousness, to confidence only in Christ's righteousness comes about by God's work in their soul?

It comes about through preaching the Word and administering the sacraments. Those are God's work.

You say its all about the faith, but how does Luther understand faith. What way is the Gospel presented? I am not looking to find fault, just want to understand how these things are understood in Lutheranism.

What sort of things would I hear in a Lutheran sermon? Is it always Gospel preaching?

The Gospel is presented less as a choice or offer, and more a fact of reality apprehended through faith.

Preaching is generally evangelical. It's not as focused on "Christian living" as in many American evangelical churches. Sermons are typically shorter.

 

[tampasteve]

Preaching is generally evangelical. It's not as focused on "Christian living" as in many American evangelical churches. Sermons are typically shorter.

Great point! In the LCMS and ELCA churches I have been to the service is about an hour -rarely more. That includes the standard liturgy with communion, so sermons are maybe 8-10 minutes long. At the LCMS church the service can be as short as 40-45 minutes when they do not have communion, but the sermon remains about the same length.

 

[FireDragon76]

Our services are about an hour and fifteen minutes. If we have a baptism sometimes it will be a little more.

 

[dms1972]

Ok thanks for that help!

Just interested.

So the law is preached to convict of sin? Then the gospel is preached and faith is belief in God's promise of forgiveness?

I find it difficult to have a pure theology of one sort or the other I have read so many, I seem to always be amalgamating my theologies a bit - probably not a good thing - I think I need a theological re-boot.

Re the liturgy, do Lutheran's have a prayer book?

 

[tampasteve]

The Lutheran Divine Service/Mass is descended of the pre-Trent Roman Mass in the vernacular, so it is superficially very similar to a Catholic Mass. In fact, as a former Catholic I can say that it is almost identical in practice to a Nuvos Ordo Mass, but the theology of parts is different (such as the understanding of the Eucharist). There is not a "Lutheran" book of prayer similar to the Book of Common Prayer in Anglican churches. There is the Book of Concord, which contains most all of the basic Lutheran positions on the Faith. However, some of the synods of Lutheranism have produced their own service book. The LCMS produces the Lutheran Service Book, the ELCA produces the Lutheran Book of Worship, I think WELS uses the LCMS book. But the services themselves will be similar between synods, in general the ELCA is more "high church" than the LCMS or WELS, but you will find both high and low churches in the different synods.

 

[dms1972]

I have to say on Luther's understanding of faith and what is its fruit I am not sure that I have faith.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have to say on Luther's understanding of faith and what is its fruit I am not sure that I have faith.

In Lutheranism, faith is directed towards Christ and the means of grace he has ordained, not our works.

 

[dms1972]

That's just it I have tried to focus on Christ and it just has to be continual but it seems like a monumental effort to keep it up (and when I talk to others they seem to me blase about their periods of unbelief) - but am I enough in touch with reality of it all? I am coming at this out of a hard postmodernism - practically being in state of denying there is any reality ! I was so far out in my philosophy I was taken to psychiatrists.

Whats the use of Luther's description of doing good works continually etc. - if I look at myself or my works, they'll always fall short of what I think are required as what faith should produce.

I have read accounts of christians like Oswald Chambers who nearly went insane in the course of coming fully to faith, yet I seem to go through this time and again - making massive efforts (yet still never quite feel I am genuine or authentic enough) then giving up from exhaustion.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's just it I have tried to focus on Christ and it just has to be continual but it seems like a monumental effort to keep it up (and when I talk to others they seem to me blase about their periods of unbelief) - but am I enough in touch with reality of it all? I am coming at this out of a hard postmodernism - practically being in state of denying there is any reality ! I was so far out in my philosophy I was taken to psychiatrists.

Whats the use of Luther's description of doing good works continually etc. - if I look at myself or my works, they'll always fall short of what I think are required as what faith should produce.

I have read accounts of christians like Oswald Chambers who nearly went insane in the course of coming fully to faith, yet I seem to go through this time and again - making massive efforts (yet still never quite feel I am genuine or authentic enough) then giving up from exhaustion.

The Lutheran conceptualization of faith does not necessarily involve dramatic conversion experiences or the kind of smug certainty you see out of some American evangelicals.

Keep in mind Lutherans aren't fully Protestant. In terms of the shape of our faith we have alot in common with Catholics or Orthodox. We are a sacramental tradition. Faith is personal, but its also more than merely individual, because we all receive the same grace through the same means. God does not mysteriously zap us with grace, it is mediated through means, applied to us in Baptism and the Lord's Supper, and also in the words of forgiveness spoken by our pastor.

I would recommend checking out some actual Lutheran churches near you, if possible. Maybe visit both an ELCA and LCMS church, since they tend to be a bit different in tone. Lutheranism is meant to be experienced and lived dynamically, it's not just a fact of reality you merely intellectualize, but it should personally involve you. Many of the Lutheran answers are going to be admittedly self-contradictory or vague, without the liturgical context.

In our salvation before God, good works are of no use for us at all. However, true good works benefit our neighbor, and part of living out a Christian life, as we understand it, is daily becoming more and more like Christ, a person for others. We have our ups and downs and we don't do so perfectly, but nontheless, that's that's what we are called to do.

 

[dms1972]

I am not really looking to join the lutheran denom, just asking a question about faith in luther's theology, but thanks for explaining, I can sort of understand what you say regarding it need to be experienced in a fellowship rather than intellectualised - good point.

I have a difficulty with getting back into any church, being at were I am at, I have tried (and not by church hopping) for well over ten years. I want to get things sorted before going back, if thats possible.

 

[Solomon Smith]

What sort of things would I hear in a Lutheran sermon?

Here ya go: Sermons | Zion Lutheran Church