Faith and Works

brightlights

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Why would I read somebody who says words that are the polar opposite of what I believe? It makes no sense. I prefer reading and studying the pure Word of God.

You would read them if you wanted to comment on their teaching with any integrity. Since you've not read him, you've not really taken the time to understand what he's trying to say. This is why your critique of him demonstrates that you're not really hearing what he's saying. You think you understand Luther, but you clearly do not.
 
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def

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@Bible Highlighter you should read Martin Luther's introduction to Romans. You might find it helpful.

Preface to Romans by Martin Luther

In the very first paragraph of the preface, the translator has noted Luther's assumptions: just is synonymous with righteous and faith is synonymous with belief. One can arrive at any gospel by making appropriate assumptions at the beginning.

Assumption #1: All justified men are righteous. {Luther's assumption}.
Assumption #2: Sinners are justified.
Deduction: Therefore, all justified sinners are righteous.
 
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jacks

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I think a lot of what Luther is trying to say is summed up with this passage from his preface. In essence the root of both good works and sin stems from our level of faith.

" In particular, the Scriptures see into the heart, to the root and main source of all sin: unbelief in the depth of the heart. Thus, even as faith alone makes just and brings the Spirit and the desire to do good external works, so it is only unbelief which sins and exalts the flesh and brings desire to do evil external works.
That is why only unbelief is called sin by Christ, as he says in John, chapter 16, "The Spirit will punish the world because of sin, because it does not believe in me." Furthermore, before good or bad works happen, which are the good or bad fruits of the heart, there has to be present in the heart either faith or unbelief, the root, sap and chief power of all sin."

 
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Dave L

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Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else.
 
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iLearn

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I think the work God wants us to do is to love. One must practice love - humble, caring, patience, selfless, forgiving, etc. Faith alone is just not enough without love. Too many people emphasising on faith, but where is love? It is greater than faith. So it is correct and we can be a complete christian if we just practice faith + love. Love is the work required. It's that simple, at least for me.
 
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Dave L

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I think the work God wants us to do is to love. One must practice love - humble, caring, patience, selfless, forgiving, etc. Faith alone is just not enough without love. Too many people emphasising on faith, but where is love? It is greater than faith. So it is correct and we can be a complete christian if we just practice faith + love. Love is the work required. It's that simple, at least for me.
Faith works by love. If love is not your driving force, your faith is only intellectual ascent originating in the flesh.
 
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We actually have his written words! You should read his preface to Romans. It would clear a lot of things up for you if you read it with an open mind.

A person who defends the obedience to God's Word after being saved by God's grace would not say "sin boldly." It's as simple as that. He is not promoting holiness but anti-holiness by that statement. Context is not going to help him in this case.

Besides, I am not really interested in reading old theologians who are in the Sola Fide camp. I am interested in what God's Word says and in discussing that. Many times people tend to look at theologians to get their Theology. While they can be helpful to an extent for some, I have found that the real learning comes by studying God's Word on your own with the Lord (and by comparing Scripture with Scripture).

In other words, my encouragement to you is to read the Bible alone and believe it, and leave Luther alone. For I know his words will fade away like the dust and God's Word will remain forever.
 
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brightlights

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A person who defends the obedience to God's Word after being saved by God's grace would not say "sin boldly." It's as simple as that. He is not promoting holiness but anti-holiness by that statement. Context is not going to help him in this case.

Would it surprise you to learn that you're misunderstanding Luther? Do you treat your wife like this? It must be hard to live with you!

Besides, I am not really interested in reading old theologians who are in the Sola Fide camp. I am interested in what God's Word says and in discussing that. Many times people tend to look at theologians to get their Theology. While they can be helpful to an extent for some, I have found that the real learning comes by studying God's Word on your own with the Lord (and by comparing Scripture with Scripture).

Then I would respectfully request that you no longer quote Luther or comment on him since you have not read him and are not willing to read him. Otherwise you're simply displaying your ignorance and promoting ignorance. You may earn the right to quote and comment on him if you're willing to actually read him. It's not hard to do and it's not a big request.
 
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Faith works by love. If love is not your driving force, your faith is only intellectual ascent originating in the flesh.

This is true. I believe there are two key things we need in addition to us saying this, as well. We need to be in agreement with basic morality or God's goodness (Which is learned by God talking to our heart via the Spirit, and by His Word). People can say they are loving when they do sinful things (even some professing Christians), so the determination on loving by faith is via His Spirit and His Word. For some Christian groups think Even certain beliefs that Christians can hold to are unloving and they can spread like cancers to destroy people's lives. They may be loving to an extent, but they are not loving on God's terms.
 
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Grip Docility

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Would it surprise you to learn that you're misunderstanding Luther? Do you treat your wife like this? It must be hard to live with you!



Then I would respectfully request that you no longer quote Luther or comment on him since you have not read him and are not willing to read him. Otherwise you're simply displaying your ignorance and promoting ignorance. You may earn the right to quote and comment on him if you're willing to actually read him. It's not hard to do and it's not a big request.

I’ve grown somewhat okay referring to Luther. But, the truth of the matter is that what Luther is saying can be bypassed entirely... as Luther is simply parroting Paul, who was parroting Jesus Christ.

This is why I’m comfortable with Luther’s writings.

Luther’s work with the Jews, not his bright spot... but that was what it was. Luther’s Gospel work? I believe Luther preached it straight from scripture as it should have been preached! People water down Luther, but Luther never watered down Luther... and He especially never watered down the Gospel Of Grace that we find in Jesus Christ. :D
 
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Would it surprise you to learn that you're misunderstanding Luther? Do you treat your wife like this? It must be hard to live with you!

Again, I do not see how the words "sin boldly" can be undone by any other words that Luther has said. To say "sin boldly" means exactly that. When a Christian happens to stumble into sin, they should never think to themselves to "sin boldly," but they are to be ashamed over their sin and be convicted by it. People try to defend Luther's words here but they will fail every time. No man of God will ever say such a thing. Jesus taught the opposite. Jesus said "sin no more" to two people (See John 5:14, John 8:11).

According to Wikipedia:

"Luther taught that salvation and, consequently, eternal life are not earned by good deeds but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin."​

Wikipedia:
Martin Luther - Wikipedia

I believe this view leads to a person think they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which explains his statement as to why he said "sin boldly."). For Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is saying good deeds do not save you (after you are saved by God's grace) so thus, as a result: sin cannot separate you from God because a lack of good deeds cannot be sin (even though the Parable of the Talents shows us that the servant who was faithful was told to enter the joy of His Lord - Matthew 25:21, and the servant who was unprofitable was sent to outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth - Matthew 25:30).

For while I disagree with the Catholic's beliefs on praying to Mary, the saints, and other odd traditions they have, the Catholic church was correct that we need both "God's grace through faith + Works of Faith" as a part of salvation. Unfortunately, they do not believe in Sola Scriptura but traditions that cannot be found in the Bible. Anyways, Luther broke away from the Catholic church on the basis that works (or holy living) did not play a part in man's salvation (after one is saved by God's grace). Luther thought we should teach God's laws and we ought to obey them, but he did not think God's laws could condemn us.

According to Wikipedia:

"...Luther... points out that the Ten Commandments—when considered not as God's condemning judgment but as an expression of his eternal will, that is, of the natural law—also positively teach how the Christian ought to live."​

Source:
Martin Luther - Wikipedia

Antinomianism was not what some folks think it is today. Back then it was merely a dispute against teaching the 10 commandments. Today others think it means something else. So I try not to use this word because it has a wide variety of meanings to different people. Anyways, Luther is saying here (according to Wikipedia) that the Moral Law does not condemn (Please take note I do not believe the Sabbath Command is binding for Christians today because it is a ceremonial law). For Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is saying that you are saved by having a belief alone and not by any good deeds and that sin cannot separate you from God. Again, this is why he says "sin boldly." You can sin and still be saved according to Luther. This is why he was implicated in sinful things like the following:

"From December 1539, Luther became implicated in the bigamy of Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse, who wanted to marry one of his wife's ladies-in-waiting. Philip solicited the approval of Luther, Melanchthon, and Bucer, citing as a precedent the polygamy of the patriarchs. The theologians were not prepared to make a general ruling, and they reluctantly advised the landgrave that if he was determined, he should marry secretly and keep quiet about the matter because divorce was worse than bigamy. As a result, on 4 March 1540, Philip married a second wife, Margarethe von der Saale, with Melanchthon and Bucer among the witnesses. However, Philip's sister Elisabeth quickly made the scandal public and Phillip threatened to expose Luther's advice. Luther told him to "tell a good, strong lie" and deny the marriage completely, which Philip did.[207] Margarethe gave birth to nine children over a span of 17 years, giving Philip a total of 19 children. In the view of Luther's biographer Martin Brecht, "giving confessional advice for Philip of Hesse was one of the worst mistakes Luther made, and, next to the landgrave himself, who was directly responsible for it, history chiefly holds Luther accountable".[208] Brecht argues that Luther's mistake was not that he gave private pastoral advice, but that he miscalculated the political implications. The affair caused lasting damage to Luther's reputation."​

Martin Luther - Wikipedia

Then I would respectfully request that you no longer quote Luther or comment on him since you have not read him and are not willing to read him.

I don't need to read the Satanic bible to know that it is bad. A person exposes themselves by their own words or their own bad reputation. There is nothing Luther could ever say that could undo "sin boldly." He is teaching you can sin and still be saved. That is what Sola Fide is all about. Granted, there are different degrees of those who think they can sin and still be saved, but that is the heart of what Sola Fide teaches. No sin can separate you from God. Some believe you can sin as much as you want and still be saved by having a belief on Jesus, and others teach that you will always sin on occasion and still be saved by having a belief on Jesus.

Otherwise you're simply displaying your ignorance and promoting ignorance. You may earn the right to quote and comment on him if you're willing to actually read him. It's not hard to do and it's not a big request.

But you are not explaining or defending what he really meant by "sin boldly." I am not going to read the words of such a man because of his bad reputation, his belief in Sola Fide, and by his saying "sin boldly" (Which is contrary to Jesus saying "to sin no more" - John 5:14, and John 8:11). I do not read junk and put junk into my head. Sorry. A person reaps what they sow.
 
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Grip Docility

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Again, I do not see how the words "sin boldly" can be undone by any other words that Luther has said. To say "sin boldly" means exactly that. When a Christian happens to stumble into sin, they should never think to themselves to "sin boldly," but they are to be ashamed over their sin and be convicted by it. People try to defend Luther's words here but they will fail every time. No man of God will ever say such a thing. Jesus taught the opposite. Jesus said "sin no more" to two people (See John 5:14, John 8:11).

According to Wikipedia:

"Luther taught that salvation and, consequently, eternal life are not earned by good deeds but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin."​

Wikipedia:
Martin Luther - Wikipedia

I believe this view leads to a person think they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which explains his statement as to why he said "sin boldly."). For Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is saying good deeds do not save you so thus, as a result: sin cannot separate you from God because a lack of good deeds cannot be sin (even though the Parable of the Talents shows us that the servant who was faithful was told to enter the joy of His Lord - Matthew 25:21, and the servant who was unprofitable was sent to outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth - Matthew 25:30).

According to Wikipedia:

"On the other hand, Luther also points out that the Ten Commandments—when considered not as God's condemning judgment but as an expression of his eternal will, that is, of the natural law—also positively teach how the Christian ought to live."​

Source:
Martin Luther - Wikipedia

Antinomianism was not what some folks think it is today. Back then it was merely a dispute against teaching the 10 commandments. Today others think it means something else. So I try not to use this word because it has a wide variety of meanings to different people. Anyways, Luther is saying here (according to Wikipedia) that the Moral Law does not condemn (Please take note I do not believe the Sabbath Command is binding for Christians today because it is a ceremonial law). For Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is saying that you are saved by having a belief alone and not by any good deeds and that sin cannot separate you from God. Again, this is why he says "sin boldly." You can sin and still be saved according to Luther. This is why he was implicated in sinful things like the following:

"From December 1539, Luther became implicated in the bigamy of Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse, who wanted to marry one of his wife's ladies-in-waiting. Philip solicited the approval of Luther, Melanchthon, and Bucer, citing as a precedent the polygamy of the patriarchs. The theologians were not prepared to make a general ruling, and they reluctantly advised the landgrave that if he was determined, he should marry secretly and keep quiet about the matter because divorce was worse than bigamy. As a result, on 4 March 1540, Philip married a second wife, Margarethe von der Saale, with Melanchthon and Bucer among the witnesses. However, Philip's sister Elisabeth quickly made the scandal public and Phillip threatened to expose Luther's advice. Luther told him to "tell a good, strong lie" and deny the marriage completely, which Philip did.[207] Margarethe gave birth to nine children over a span of 17 years, giving Philip a total of 19 children. In the view of Luther's biographer Martin Brecht, "giving confessional advice for Philip of Hesse was one of the worst mistakes Luther made, and, next to the landgrave himself, who was directly responsible for it, history chiefly holds Luther accountable".[208] Brecht argues that Luther's mistake was not that he gave private pastoral advice, but that he miscalculated the political implications. The affair caused lasting damage to Luther's reputation."​

Martin Luther - Wikipedia



I don't need to read the Satanic bible to know that it is bad. A person exposes themselves by their own words or their own bad reputation. There is nothing Luther could ever say that could undo "sin boldly." He is teaching you can sin and still be saved. That is what Sola Fide is all about. Granted, there are different degrees of those who think they can sin and still be saved, but that is the heart of what Sola Fide teaches. No sin can separate you from God. Some believe you can sin as much as you want and still be saved by having a belief on Jesus, and others teach that you will always sin on occasion and still be saved by having a belief on Jesus.



But you are not explaining or defending what he really meant by "sin boldly." I am not going to read the words of such a man because of his bad reputation, his belief in Sola Fide, and by saying "sin boldly" (Which is contrary to Jesus saying "to sin no more" - John 5:14, and John 8:11). I do not read junk and put junk into my head. Sorry. A person reaps what they sow.

Luther was mocking the artificial Grace that had been dispensed by an indulgence selling business. He was also referring to the following passage in scripture... Hebrews 4:16

Any man that doesn’t know his woes and carry them boldly before God’s good character of Love and forgiveness is hiding in shadow.

We mess up! Luther was saying 1 John 1:8-10!

Luther was saying that we shouldn’t preach fake grace that is for the self righteous... but real Grace that is for the Sinner!

We are only counted perfect by the work of Jesus Christ! Our Righteousness is as filthy rags!

There are two kinds of men... those that know they sin, saved or not... and those that lie to themselves and God. How a man could be under the perfect conviction of the Holy Spirit Of Jesus Christ and not realize that he fails God second to second will always be beyond me.

When I compare an amateur artist to an artistic genius... I instantly see the difference! How can any man stand next to God and not see the difference!!!!!
 
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No Scripture says "sin boldly." Sorry. Jesus says to "sin no more." (John 5:14, John 8:11). A person's future sins are not forgiven them. A believer is never to be proud about sinning or courageous about sinning which is what "sin boldly" means.

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren not to think that sin is not an illusion (or does not exist) like Christian Scientists believe and others.
 
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Grip Docility

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I think the work God wants us to do is to love. One must practice love - humble, caring, patience, selfless, forgiving, etc. Faith alone is just not enough without love. Too many people emphasising on faith, but where is love? It is greater than faith. So it is correct and we can be a complete christian if we just practice faith + love. Love is the work required. It's that simple, at least for me.

Love flows so abundantly from the gratitude of Salvation by Faith in Jesus Christ, Who saves.

Love is the cause of God’s work... as God is Love. For us, Love is the Result Of God’s Grace.

You could say Faith working through God... which is to say Faith working through Love.
 
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Faith does not work through love in Sola Fide because you can sin and still be saved on some level; And we know Jesus does not accept the believer who did wonderful works and yet they also worked sin or iniquity (See Matthew 7:23). A believer cannot justify grievous sin like lying, hating, lusting, (on some level, i.e. "sin boldly"), etc. and still be saved. It doesn't work like that.
 
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Grip Docility

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Faith does not work through love in Sola Fide because you can sin and still be saved on some level; And we know Jesus does not accept the believer who did wonderful works and yet they also worked sin or iniquity (See Matthew 7:23). A believer cannot justify grievous sin like lying, hating, lusting, etc. and still be saved. It doesn't work like that.

Could you please explain 1 John 1:8-10 to me. :)

What are you calling sin?

Are you claiming to be without sin?
 
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Grip Docility

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Refresh the page and see Post #33.

Post 33 is commentary that in no way states what 1 John 1:8-10 states.

It is a reinterpretation of the text that, IMO, Holds zero water.

Grace isn’t a license to sin, but sin Forgiven!

Grace wasn’t provided by Jesus to permit sin, but to forgive all humanities life debt of sin!
 
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Grip Docility

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1 John 2:1 is super important! It neither condones sin, nor condemns sinners.

Luther said... “If you sin”...

And... he bound it to Hebrews 4:16 by his very verbiage. I think doctrine that assumes “Extra Carnal effort” will make individuals, MORE Saved... actually stands in contention of the truth that Jesus paid our debt in full, in such a manner that we have peace that passes understanding.
 
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"Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, 'Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven.'

Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God...It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn't ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn't do such works is without faith...

Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God's grace...Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace. It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire."

- Martin Luther
Paul did not recommend sloth, laziness or sluggishness.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 (WEB) Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother who walks in rebellion, and not after the tradition which they received from us. 7 For you know how you ought to imitate us. For we didn’t behave ourselves rebelliously among you, 8 neither did we eat bread from anyone’s hand without paying for it, but in labor and travail worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you; 9 not because we don’t have the right, but to make ourselves an example to you, that you should imitate us. 10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: “If anyone will not work, don’t let him eat.” 11 For we hear of some who walk among you in rebellion, who don’t work at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now those who are that way, we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
 
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