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Featured Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by redleghunter, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Good examples. These are indeed the traits and love of His sheep.

    As I’ve said before. What I present is more sobering and concrete. If there is no fruit there is no abiding and if no abiding one is not in Christ.

    The parable of the sower you mentioned is truly sobering. There is only one type of soil which produces. None of the others did.

    Matthew 13: NASB
    3And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5“Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6“But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7“Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8“And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9“He who has ears, let him hear.”
     
  2. setst777

    setst777 Active Member Supporter

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    Hi Thomas.
    Thank you for your reply.

    I agree with your good remarks of how the early Church defended The Faith against heretics.

    I have reservations regarding your view of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC).

    I do agree that Lord Jesus founded the Church through His 12 Apostles, with Peter as the leader, whom Christ sent forth.

    I also believe that the Spirit of Christ opened the doors, through Peter, to grant the Sameritans, and then to the Gentiles, salvation through the Gospel just as the Book of Acts records, and also giving Peter special leadership in the Church, as Christ promised to Peter.

    The Foundation for the Faith has now been laid. We have the Founding Documents in the New Testament, God's Revelation of the Gospel that fully reveals and explains that Faith that are now entrusted to the Church, and by which the Church stands. So any interpretation by the Church Magisterium must not go beyond the revelation of Holy Scripture of which the RCC agrees:

    CCC 85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."[47] This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

    CCC 86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."[48]

    And we know the the Holy Scripture completely revealed that Revelation by God's Command, to give us complete understanding.

    All the Fullness of Divine Revelation has now been plainly revealed in Writing by the Command of God:

    Romans 16:25 Now to HIM who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to revelation of the Mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the Prophetic Writings by the Command of the Eternal God, so that ALL nations might believe and obey HIM - 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Christ Jesus! Amen.

    Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit of God's holy Apostles and Prophets.

    Colossians 2:1-8
    1 I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally (so it has to be in writing). 2 My purpose is that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the Mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you with find sounding arguements.
    . . . 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

    The manifold wisdom of God is now fully revealed and entrusted with the Church. This manifold wisdom is the Founding Documents of our Faith which God gave to us through His Apostles in writing.

    Ephesians 3:8-14
    (NIV)
    8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

    IF a supposed organization claims to be the Church of Christ, but then directs us to believe a deeper revelation then what God has already entrusted to us through the Prophets and Apostles, then shouldn't this be a red flag?

    I addressed this issue regarding the RCC in an earlier post in response to another post in the following link...

    What saves a person?

    Please read and let me know if I am amiss in my understanding.
     
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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  4. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That changes nothing to what we were discussing.
     
  5. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Now your just going into denial. Let's go through the scripture as well as let others see exactly the verse we are speaking if.

    What does this mean to you?

    Wander from the truth,

    What do you think death means here?

    Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  6. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't. and don't see what that has to do with this? God chooses when we have gone to far. Surely you aren't going to ask me to go through all possible variables there?

    When you all depend on that "gotcha" what you are really saying is no one knows at what point God decides exactly when we have lost salvation so it must be that we cannot lose salvation.

    It's like asking us who is going to heaven and who not, just because we can't answer that, doesn't mean no one is going to hell. It's reasonable we can't answer what only God can know for certain.
     
  7. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There you go again, claiming we said works alone for salvation...and once again, who ever claimed that, please show us?
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It has everything to do with it. Ephesians 2:8-10 shows the relationship with being saved by Grace alone and being His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And I completely agree, seems many false twists od scripture are being presented while the truth is being ignored when it's right there in black and white.

    We've posted so many of those truths already, and easily refuted the twists, and I've seen some of the replies that are nonsensical, and other tyhings that clearly could not be refuted, just skipped altogether.

    There comes a point when we must realize they are refusing to see...and we can only do so much. Then, in a short while the subject will be posted again...always someone looking for agreement to help them believe something I think they already know is not true... If they were confident in the theology, why continually post, and keep questioning it their own selves?

    Sigh*
     
  10. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Doing good is the tree bearing the fruit, doing evil is the tree not bearing any fruit.

    The fruit itself is a gift of God, i.e., the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

    To be saved on must believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It means turning a wayward brother or sister in Christ to repentance.

    Not loss of salvation, a wandering.

    Same as it means here:

    1 Corinthians 5: NASB
    3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Which death?
     
  12. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then you are saying if we aren't bearing fruit, or as you put it, doing good, then we can't make it to heaven?

    While in the same exact post, you attempt to claim we don't have to be good, but only believe, as in:

    :swoon:
     
  13. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's right there if you pay attention to context, but surely you will continue not to, it's part of that denial stage.

    The death someone living in sin will encounter. The kind of death they will be saved from by having their damnable sin pointed out to them, just as the scripture describes.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Only asking for clarity of Biblical teachings. I know there are none that say "when you reach this level you are no longer saved and abandoned by God." I do know there is plenty to say about not loving Christ, His commands and obedience and that being linked to sons of disobedience and sons of wrath. Yet that is not spoken of His elect who are saved by Grace. In fact, they are to never perish. So the answer has to be something else entirely.

    We don't know the 'point of lost salvation' because the Bible is silent on the matter. One is either in Christ or not, one either has the Spirit testifying to their spirt they are a child of God or not. That is the concrete and sobering truth taught in the Scriptures.

    Then why try to make Scriptures conform to an idea and just let the Scriptures speak for themselves? Where the Scriptures are explicit on one being sealed in God for the Day of Redemption it explicitly says:
    Romans 8: NASB
    29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

    31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    Which is usually answered by another idea of "But what if the elect sin like Caligula and don't repent?"

    And then it goes in circles. The "What if" questions casting doubt on clear apostolic teachings.

    Or even worse. The proof texting to oppose a clear teaching thus creating a contradiction which does not exist. This is the most heinous of all approaches to nuke the Bible to 'prove' a theory. This scorched earth approach happens here in General Theology and other places too.

    I don't claim you believe you promote works alone for salvation. However, you are making a claim what we do keep our salvation. And if salvation is truly by Grace alone, that means all of it. The Justification (Grace), the conformed to the image of His Son--Sanctification (Grace) and Glorification (Grace). I agreed with you progressive sanctification is synergistic because we are actors and doers of God's workmanship as regenerated souls, new creations.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Here's Ephesians 5 and please tell me if Paul is speaking of a child of God turning back to a child of disobedience and wrath:

    Ephesians 5: NASB

    1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

    3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

    6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9(for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

    14For this reason it says,
    “Awake, sleeper,
    And arise from the dead,
    And Christ will shine on you.”


    15Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; 20always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; 21and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

    Please argue from the text above that Paul is teaching those he called "Light of the Lord" can become sons of disobedience again.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    He did not say that.

    He did not say that.
     
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  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    If we take the context you are promoting then the Christian who brought back a wayward or wandering person who lost their salvation is now the redeemer of their soul. Because that is the context here for what you are promoting. Meaning the one who pulls the sinner out of the fire is responsible for saving them and as such their own sins are covered by doing this act of mercy. Is this really what James is saying here? That we can save souls and have our sins atoned for by our actions?

    I guess this passage is a bit more difficult than it seems now.
     
  18. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    To be saved one must believe in Jesus and confess His name.

    Romans 10:9-10
    That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    That is the free gift available to everyone. As Paul states in the letter (1 Corinthians 15), that is the important and primary foundation; The primary creed of Christianity.

    The works or should I say the fruit, are derived from the reception of the Holy Spirit by the believer.

    Galatians 5:22-23
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

    Any tree or believer that does not bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit is cut down and burnt.

    Are we saved because we love others?

    Of course not.

    One has to trust in Jesus first and foremost in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Ultimately it is all the grace of God.
     
  19. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    They refute scriptures one way then we correct them by pointing out something they’ve missed or disregarded then they change their position and still refute our point another way and it just never ends. I’ve had about 4 or 5 different explanations about John 15:1-10 and every time I point out a mistake they try another way of refuting it and again I point out another mistake and again and again it just never ends. Then they start refuting without evidence at all. It does get frustrating sometimes. Lord please give us patience :crossrc:
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The cheerleading is quite uncharitable
     
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