Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
So ignore the context and pick what you want. Yes it's simple alright. If you want to know what I believe scripture teaches it is this: a person is saved by Grace through faith alone. It is an unmerited gift that can never be earned. But once you are saved you do good works because you are a new creation. It's part of your new nature. Good works demonstrate faith but do not save. To put it another way if you have to do anything to be saved then it isn't a gift it's a wage and how is that good news?
You seemed to manage in a paragraph what the thread can't agree to in 24 pages. I don't know why not, it doesn't take that much knowledge of the New Testament to come to that conclusion. Just reading Ephesians could get you there in 6 chapters. If it were just the doctrinal issue, you could do it in three.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So ignore the context and pick what you want.

I didn't ignore it, it just wasn't relative to a good solid answer.

If you want to know what I believe scripture teaches it is this: a person is saved by Grace through faith alone. It is an unmerited gift that can never be earned.

I see, in your opinion, doing good is not necessary for salvation.

Thank you for being forthright.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So ignore the context and pick what you want. Yes it's simple alright. If you want to know what I believe scripture teaches it is this: a person is saved by Grace through faith alone. It is an unmerited gift that can never be earned. But once you are saved you do good works because you are a new creation. It's part of your new nature. Good works demonstrate faith but do not save. To put it another way if you have to do anything to be saved then it isn't a gift it's a wage and how is that good news?
These Biblical truths usually escape the decisional regeneration revivalism.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see, in your opinion, doing good is not necessary for salvation.

Thank you for being forthright.
He did not say that. He said doing good is part of the new creation and goes back to the OP:

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Verse 10 tells the story of works.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The scripture made no mention of separation.
It’s quite clear. Ephesians 2 makes the distinction between children of wrath and children of God.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
 
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Yes, God works wonderfully and wisely to preserve His Word. God left us with excellent church leaders that continued the work of Christ, and then the Apostles, to proclaim the Gospel, defend the Rule of Faith against heresy, and to preserve those founding inspired documents - the Gospels and the Epistles.

While God uses the Church (universal) as an instrument to preserve His word, it does not follow that Church leaders should also be given unchecked authority to interpret Scripture that we should blindly accept. Even in the 1st century Church under the Apostles, church leaders were already beginning to corrupt the message, of which the Apostles had to correct a number of times.

Even among 2nd century Church Fathers, we see some discrepancy in interpretation of the Scriptures, although the core doctrines (the Rule of Faith) remained universal. But the fight against heretics remained strong against many apposing "christian" groups.

And in later centuries we see Leaders within the Church overstepping Scripture, giving interpretations that constitute a corruption of the actual doctrine clearly explained in writing by Christ and the Apostles.

Therefore, we must be careful, and do as the Bareans did - to test what any so called leader states against Scripture itself.

Thank you for that excellent response. You are right in fact that we can not blindly trust all Church ministers to correctly interpret sacred scripture. There have been countless heretics throughout the age. The Council of Jerusalem in AD 50 (recorded by St. Luke in Acts) is a great example of the Apostles having to fight Heresies.
While the Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp were not infalible by the Holy Spirit, But they did strictly follow and express the teachings of the Apostles and defended the Church’s teachings against pagans and heretics.
When Arias began spreading his infamous heresy, it took the Church a very difficult effort to combat and a very long time to correct and end the heresy, finally officiating her statement at Nicaea.
While all of this is true, we must remember that the Church herself, and especially her pope and magisterium are guided by the Holy Spirit and are thus infalible. We believe this sino,y because we trust Jesus when He told the Apostles “I will give you the Spirit of Truth, Who will guide you in all truth,” and when He told St. Peter, “Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven.”
So yes, while many heretics have hurt the Church’s message throughout the age, we must remember that she herself is not a church of men, but rather the Church of God.
 
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Hello brother Thomas I enjoyed reading your post and I would like to share my thoughts on James 2 to get your opinion on the subject. Personally I think many people don’t realize that James is talking about two different types of faith in James 2:14-26. He mentions a saving faith that produces or results in works and a dead and useless or barren faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. I ask myself what is the root cause of good works? I think so many people who are reading James are not contemplating this question. Good works are the result of love for others. The Holy Spirit puts this kind of love and compassion in our new heart. Oh praise God for lighting our way!! Those who are not doing good works are not loving others. They are not abiding in Christ’s love. I believe this is exactly what separated the sheep from the goats. Jesus said they were condemned because they didn’t do good works but I believe the root cause was they didn’t do good works because they didn’t love others. When we love others we are pleased to show it in our actions as well as our words. In John 15 right after the parable of the vinedresser He continues His message saying this

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The parable of the vinedresser is all about abiding in Christ’s love and producing fruit. We see a parallel message in 1 John 3

“We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16-24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What are your thoughts?

Hi, and thank you very much for that, I thoroughly enjoyed that thought. If I could add one thing, I’d like to say that oftentimes, love is a work. By feeding the hungry, and helping the sick, we are loving them. Again, thank you, that was great.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I believe Simony is an ecclesiastical crime not a secular crime. The point was that it was irony that Luther's bishop who was trying to "correct" him was the same bishop buying of a bishopric inadvertently sparked the Reformation.

I have read Eusebius, can provide the exact quote and source? I do not remember coming across this in my studies.

Ah, thank you very much for clarifying your point, and you’re absolutely right: It was hypocritical of the bishop to attempt to correct Luther, when he, himself, was at fault.

As for Bishop Eusebius, while he was eventually excommunicated for Arianism, he prayed the Apostles’ Creed every Mass, and by his actions as Bishop, led in communion with Rome. I’m terribly sorry if you misunderstood my previous statement, as there are no records os him plainly and specifically saying that he pledged his allegiance to the Church; I didn’t mean to imply that in any way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Thank you for your response. I'm afraid I still see issues with what you have written in response. First, I would point out that unlike most of his contemporaries Luther actually possessed a Bible. As in it was his. Bibles were not something one possessed rather a school or a library owned it. Second, Luther graduated with a degree in biblical studies in 1508 and taught scripture for a decade and more. Thirdly, being part of a monastic order if nothing else one would be surrounded by scripture from performing the daily office (breviary) read and chanted in a language he really could understand. (Actually I have an old monastic breviary on my shelf, pre VII and pre Pious X reform). Lastly, and most important the man translated the NT by 1522 and the OT by 1534 so if he wasn't familiar with text from all his experience before he certainly would have been familiar with scripture by the time he was finished. And if it was his ignorance that caused him to "invent" is doctrine surley by the time his OT came out (with the apocrypha I might add) he would have seen one of these "contradictions". But alas he did not nor did the Lutheran theologians of the Lutheran Orthodoxy period. So whatever issue one has with Luther's doctrine it was not a result of any ignorance of scripture.


This statement is problematic because virtually everything stated is anachronistic. First, Clement is not referred to as "pope" this early (or any bishop of Rome for that matter). Second, there were no dioceses in existence at this time since Clement lived approximately 150 years before the Roman empire was reorganized into dioceses. In other words I am not sure why this is even mentioned since the even I believe you are referring to doesn't occur for another 300 plus years ( the politicking between Constantinople and Ephesus ca 431 AD).

I noticed you inserted your definition of "Grace" into the text. You will also notice that it isn't present in the text. So lets put it in a greater context.

Acts 15:8-11 The council of Jerusalem (ESV)
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

John Chrysostom writes:
Observe how he shows that it was God speaking by him, and no human utterance. “And God, that knoweth the hearts, gave testimony unto them:” he refers them to the spiritual testimony: “by giving them the Holy Ghost even as unto us.” (v. 8.) Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. “And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.” (v. 9.) From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision. For indeed they do not say all this only by way of apology for the Gentiles, but to teach (the Jewish believers) also to abandon the Law. However, at present this is not said. “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples?” (v. 10.) What means, “Tempt ye God?” As if He had not power to save by faith. Consequently, it proceeds from a want of faith, this bringing in the Law. Then he shows that they themselves were nothing benefited by it, and he turns the whole (stress of his speech) against the Law, not against them, and (so) cuts short the accusation of them: “which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus we shall be saved, even as they.” (v. 11.) How full of power these words! The same that Paul says at large in the Epistle to the Romans, the same says Peter here. “For if Abraham,” says (Paul), “was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.” (Rom. 4:2.) Do you perceive that all this is more a lesson for them than apology for the Gentiles? However, if he had spoken this without a plea for speaking, he would have been suspected: an occasion having offered, he lays hold of it, and speaks out fearlessly. See on all occasions how the designs of their foes are made to work with them. If those had not stirred the question, these things would not have been spoken, nor what follows.

John Chrysostom. (1889). Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, on the Acts of the Apostles. In P. Schaff (Ed.), J. Walker, J. Sheppard, H. Browne, & G. B. Stevens (Trans.), Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans (Vol. 11, pp. 201–202). New York: Christian Literature Company.

As you can see I didn't misunderstand anything Chrysostom in the least bit. The fuller context actually affirms my position (Sola Fide). The problem you are having is that as a modern Roman Catholic you have to make the early church fathers sound like modern Roman Catholics when they are not. I can literally fill page upon page of early church fathers that agree with the doctrine of Sola Fide. Of course they say things that I do not agree with and neither would you but what I can do that you cannot is allow the ECF to speak for themselves without an artificial interpretive lens.


Again you are inserting things into the text that simply are not present. I do apologize, I did not mean to use the above quote rather the one I will include below because it it clearly from I Clement chapter 32 and is not a commentary:
Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”15 All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Clement of Rome. (1885). The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 13). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

Thank you for such a plethora of information and such a large and wonderful response.
I must admit, you seem to know more than I do about Luther; I completely forgot he translated the Bible to German, and that does hurt my argument for his ignorance of scripture. I’d like to say though, and this argument might be better placed in another thread, but it was Luther’s duty as a monk to read scripture in accordance with the Church’s teachings, and many things are easy to understand (as seen by all sides in this lengthy discussion :)

As for St. Pope Clement. You are right in two aspects here, of which I should definitely have been smarter with my words. The term “pope” was not used at this point. Neither was the term “diocese,” and that was an error by me to claim Ephesus was a diocese. I simply meant the Church in Ephesus, but wrongly called it a diocese because I didn’t want to seemingly separate it from the rest of the Church.

I noticed you cited Clement’s letter to Corinth, which is confidential because that’s an example I was going to use anyway. In the letter, Clement actually asserts himself as head of the Church. This was around AD 88, I believe, when the Corinthians were disposing of good and lawful leaders. While St. John the Apostle was actually closer (in Ephesus) St. Clement (the head of the Church) was the one who settled the matter. In fact, by this St. John recognized Clement as head of the Church as well as Linus and Cletus.

As for St. Chrysostom, I’ve read the quotation you’ve supplied many times by now, and still cannot see the point you are trying to make. To me it seems clearly that he’s referring to the Jews’ works of the ancient Law, not good works of love.

Now I’d like to defend myself from your (very understandable) attack on my reasoning. I have no reason to twist facts, or to line up the Church Fathers with the Church. I’m not issuing propaganda here, nor trying to make facts fit any narrative. St. Chrysostom was a wonderful saint who wrote on many important issues such as the Eucharist (which is for another time). I admire him, and would never insult him by trying to manipulate his words.

Finally, I’d like to actually present my position (and the Church’s), as I’m not sure if I’ve done it clearly: Salvation is not black and white for the knowledge of men, and is known but to God. Notice how we recognize saints in Heaven, but never the opposite. Because God knows the heart and actions of every man, only God can accurately, mercifully, and justly determine Salvation. Grace saves. Neither faith nor works would be of any merit if Christ did not die for us, and if God did not offer us salvation. Faith does save. Faith alone can save (take the repented thief crucified next to Jesus for example). Works save. Works alone can save (take Cornelius for example). But for the one who has faith in God and in Christ, and knows the full extent of Christ’s commandment “love your neighbor as yourself,” and “whatever you did for the least of these, you did for Me,” but abandons his neighbor, (the Levite had faith but walked right past the mugged man on the road), and forsakes his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, for what point is his faith? For some will cry “Lord, Lord!” But Christ will reply “I never knew you.” So strive for the narrow gate, and do not cover your light but shine for all the world.
 
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
A couple of issue here. First, it is not evidenced that faith those whom James is writing against have any saving faith. Consider, the second question in v 14 expects a negative answer due to the particle (μὴ) present in the Greek. So right out of the gate another question must be answered. Namely, are there two kinds of faith or is there something else going on. I would argue the latter. Faith cannot be seen rather one can only see the fruits of faith in works of mercy. Compare with Matt 7:15–20 (ESV)
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

The way someone is shown to have faith is by their works. Keep in mind those with said faith normally do not realize they are doing works of mercy. Compare with Matt 25:34-40 (ESV)

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Once again I noticed that you have inserted something into the text. Infused is never used in with faith in relation to works. In fact, the proper relation to good works as the OP states is this:
Eph 2 (ESV)
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So to put a bow on the discussion, the Faith that James is critical is the faith of a dead man. How dead is dead? Dead men don't do works of mercy because they are dead. So in the spiritual sense one is dead and so is his faith without works.

What an excellent addition! I think you’ll find after this that agree with me more than you think.
As Ephesians says, grace is what saves us. Without God’s free gift there would be no salvation. And you’re absolutely correct that the fruits of a living faith are works. Thus, if one’s faith produces no works, it is, as St. James says, dead. This is the living, active faith that St. Paul constantly wrote about. Have faith in Christ’s saving Passion, and accept God’s free gift. The Church teaches that we ought to be co-redeemers with Christ (co- as in “with”, not “equal to”). Display your faith through good deeds and “work out your salvation in fear and trembling”. Don’t over presume your salvation, but strive to enter through the narrow gate.
 
Upvote 0

Athanasius377

Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord
Supporter
Apr 22, 2017
1,370
1,515
Cincinnati
✟702,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Thank you for that excellent response. You are right in fact that we can not blindly trust all Church ministers to correctly interpret sacred scripture. There have been countless heretics throughout the age. The Council of Jerusalem in AD 50 (recorded by St. Luke in Acts) is a great example of the Apostles having to fight Heresies.
While the Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp were not infalible by the Holy Spirit, But they did strictly follow and express the teachings of the Apostles and defended the Church’s teachings against pagans and heretics.
When Arias began spreading his infamous heresy, it took the Church a very difficult effort to combat and a very long time to correct and end the heresy, finally officiating her statement at Nicaea.

This is your best post yet. I agree with everything you said above and would take it one step further and state it was the catholic church that taught the rule of faith and fought against the arians. We confess the same ecumenical creeds as you (Apostles', Nicene-Constantinopolitan and Athanasian Creeds). Remember the fight wasn't over after Nicaea, Athanasius the Great (my homie) had to fight against all the mechanisms of the empire that as he put it, "Woke up one day and found itself Arian" (my paraphrase). This included a number of bishops (in not the vast majority) that were compromising on the faith once delivered to the saints. It is for that reason I reject the idea of an infallible magisterium. I chose Athanasius as my screen name and avatar because I believe that we like him will need to stand against the world in the face of certain death and/or exile and confess Christ without compromise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thomas Cooper
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
These Biblical truths usually escape the decisional regeneration revivalism.

The wordy twists escape no one, we simply learn no to encourage those who use them.

Jesus said simply, those who are good go the heaven, and those who are not, go to hell...no more so-called truths need be added
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It’s quite clear. Ephesians 2 makes the distinction between children of wrath and children of God.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Adding scripture from a completely different subect, and completely different book if the Bible, to another book/subject, is like adding 1 plus 1 to equal 2, you get a whole different and completely made up result to the equation.

But I will take from that scripture, a few verses:

3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh,

"Formerly" there means we no longer do bad, we do good. that's exactly what it takes, get saved and act right. Precisely what Christ said in the Verse.

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one here says any different, no one is boasting, and no one ever said salvation can be earned so I really do wish that unless some of you can show us where any of that has taken place, please stop the accusations. And I do realize that just happened to be in the scripture you posted so that doesn't really count, however others do keep saying we think those things and it's just not true.

But,

We can lose salvation if we do not act right from the start, or if we acted right once, but stopped. It's all right there in the parable of the sower. Some acted right for awhile, and this that or the other thing happened and they fizzled out.

Here is scripture I believe you yourself quoted recently:

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Those people stopped acting right, and it states right there, that getting them back on track will save them from death, and that can mean nothing other than
Hell, Just as Christ said...we do bad, we get Hell.

Now if you all want to keep repeating if they have faith, they will do good, all you are saying is they aren't saved (don't have faith) because they aren't doing good. Doing good shows we have faith, otherwise the faith is dead, as in faith without works is dead, and if faith is dead it is non existent, and we go to Hell.

If it doesn't mean that, what do you think "Faith without works is dead" does mean?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Adding scripture from a completely different subect, and completely different book if the Bible, to another book/subject, is like adding 1 plus 1 to equal 2, you get a whole different and completely made up result to the equation.
It’s the same chapter and verses from the OP. ???
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We can lose salvation if we do not act right from the start, or if we acted right once, but stopped. It's all right there in the parable of the sower. Some acted right for awhile, and this that or the other thing happened and they fizzled out.
This is out of context of the text. Where does it say we lose our salvation in the text you quoted?
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Now if you all want to keep repeating if they have faith, they will do good, all you are saying is they aren't saved (don't have faith) because they aren't doing good. Doing good shows we have faith, otherwise the faith is dead, as in faith without works is dead, and if faith is dead it is non existent, and we go to Hell.
We truly do what or Who we believe in.

Unless as you quoted James, you believe each time we sin we lose our Justification before God?

How does one gain assurance of their seal of the Holy Spirit?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
This is your best post yet. I agree with everything you said above and would take it one step further and state it was the catholic church that taught the rule of faith and fought against the arians. We confess the same ecumenical creeds as you (Apostles', Nicene-Constantinopolitan and Athanasian Creeds). Remember the fight wasn't over after Nicaea, Athanasius the Great (my homie) had to fight against all the mechanisms of the empire that as he put it, "Woke up one day and found itself Arian" (my paraphrase). This included a number of bishops (in not the vast majority) that were compromising on the faith once delivered to the saints. It is for that reason I reject the idea of an infallible magisterium. I chose Athanasius as my screen name and avatar because I believe that we like him will need to stand against the world in the face of certain death and/or exile and confess Christ without compromise.

Thank you very much, and I like what you said here. And while I still disagree with your view of the magisterium, I completely understand it now. I’m not too familiar with Athanasius, but he seemed like a neat guy, and I’ll have to look into him more. I respect and admire that uncompromising pride you have for your beliefs and for Christ. Thank you.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0