Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

redleghunter

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The wordy twists escape no one, we simply learn no to encourage those who use them.

Jesus said simply, those who are good go the heaven, and those who are not, go to hell...no more so-called truths need be added
Why did Jesus have to die a horrible death if being a good person is enough?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Adding scripture from a completely different subect, and completely different book if the Bible, to another book/subject, is like adding 1 plus 1 to equal 2, you get a whole different and completely made up result to the equation.

But I will take from that scripture, a few verses:

3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh,

"Formerly" there means we no longer do bad, we do good. that's exactly what it takes, get saved and act right. Precisely what Christ said in the Verse.

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one here says any different, no one is boasting, and no one ever said salvation can be earned so I really do wish that unless some of you can show us where any of that has taken place, please stop the accusations. And I do realize that just happened to be in the scripture you posted so that doesn't really count, however others do keep saying we think those things and it's just not true.

But,

We can lose salvation if we do not act right from the start, or if we acted right once, but stopped. It's all right there in the parable of the sower. Some acted right for awhile, and this that or the other thing happened and they fizzled out.

Here is scripture I believe you yourself quoted recently:

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Those people stopped acting right, and it states right there, that getting them back on track will save them from death, and that can mean nothing other than
Hell, Just as Christ said...we do bad, we get Hell.

Now if you all want to keep repeating if they have faith, they will do good, all you are saying is they aren't saved (don't have faith) because they aren't doing good. Doing good shows we have faith, otherwise the faith is dead, as in faith without works is dead, and if faith is dead it is non existent, and we go to Hell.

If it doesn't mean that, what do you think "Faith without works is dead" does mean?

I completely agree brother Kenny I would also add that just 3 chapters later in Ephesians 5 Paul warns these same children of God referred to in Ephesians 2 of acts of sin and immortality that leads to once again becoming sons of disobedience resulting in receiving God’s wrath upon them. Romans 11 Paul also makes it clear that branches that have been grafted in can be cut off and grafted back in again. In order to receive salvation we must abide and endure.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Why did Jesus have to die a horrible death if being a good person is enough?

Because being a good person doesn’t pay for sins. The wage of sin is death. Good works are not to earn salvation but are necessary to abiding in Christ. The root of works is love for God and love for others. If you love God and you love others you are pleased to do good works. If you don’t do good works then you don’t have love for others. That’s why the goats were condemned.
 
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redleghunter

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I completely agree brother Kenny I would also add that just 3 chapters later in Ephesians 5 Paul warns these same children of God referred to in Ephesians 2 of acts of sin and immortality that leads to once again becoming sons of disobedience resulting in receiving God’s wrath upon them. Romans 11 Paul also makes it clear that branches that have been grafted in can be cut off and grafted back in again. In order to receive salvation we must abide and endure.
Just read Ephesians 5 twice over again did not see where sons of God turn back to sons of disobedience. Can you point that out for me?

On Romans 11 we have to make up our minds. Is Paul speaking of Israel and Gentiles with the metaphor of the branches? I forget because people argue that it’s all about Israel and Gentiles and not individuals.

What I’m getting at if this is about individuals then you must also embrace predestination and election.

If not, it’s about Israel as a people. And Gentiles as a people and there will be a time where the Gentiles may be cut off and the natural branches Israel grafted back in.

If you are showing this to be individual salvation then explain this one:

Romans 11: NASB

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”

27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS
.”
 
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redleghunter

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Good works are not to earn salvation but are necessary to abiding in Christ.
Last I checked the fruit came from the Vine and not the branches themselves.

The root of works is love for God and love for others. If you love God and you love others you are pleased to do good works.
Who is the root?

If you don’t do good works then you don’t have love for others. That’s why the goats were condemned.

Obviously a bad root.

What does this tell us?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Just read Ephesians 5 twice over again did not see where sons of God turn back to sons of disobedience. Can you point that out for me?

On Romans 11 we have to make up our minds. Is Paul speaking of Israel and Gentiles with the metaphor of the branches? I forget because people argue that it’s all about Israel and Gentiles and not individuals.

What I’m getting at if this is about individuals then you must also embrace predestination and election.

If not, it’s about Israel as a people. And Gentiles as a people and there will be a time where the Gentiles may be cut off and the natural branches Israel grafted back in.

If you are showing this to be individual salvation then explain this one:

Romans 11: NASB

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”

27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS
.”

Sure no problem

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

And I’ll explain Romans 11:26-27 also.

Not everyone born in Israel is considered an Israelite. Jacob is also called Israel and God’s covenant was to Abraham’s defendants thru Sarah not Rebekah.

“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: " THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: " AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON." And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, " THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, " JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:1-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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Last I checked the fruit came from the Vine and not the branches themselves.


Who is the root?



Obviously a bad root.

What does this tell us?

Then perhaps you should read verse 2 again.

“He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬

Producing fruit is synergetic in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
 
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redleghunter

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Sure no problem

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Not seeing it. Can you bold the portion where a loss of salvation is discussed?

For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: " THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: " AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON." And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, " THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, " JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:1-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Ok so your a Calvinist now. What does this have to do with losing salvation?
 
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redleghunter

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Then perhaps you should read verse 2 again.

“He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬

Producing fruit is synergetic in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
The fruit comes from the vine right?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not seeing it. Can you bold the portion where a loss of salvation is discussed?

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Ok so your a Calvinist now. What does this have to do with losing salvation?

You have no intention of speaking truth. I’m glad you said that. It just shows everyone your true intention to twist what people say in order to discredit them. You do realize that is deceptive right?
 
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BNR32FAN

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The fruit comes from the vine right?

Yes in a sense but we must cooperate with the vine. Branches are cut off of the vine that don’t produce fruit. So just because someone is grafted into the vine fruit is not guaranteed unless they cooperate with the vine.
 
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redleghunter

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Producing fruit is synergetic in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
Of course Sanctification is synergistic. Faith is not comatose. But that verse had to do with no fruit produced and not abiding.

I’m still looking for the verse where fruit is produced then stopped and cut off. Where’s that verse?

Also Ephesians 5 is not preaching loss of salvation. I’m still not seeing that. Paul is contrasting what it looks like to be a child of God and contrasts that with sons of disobedience.
 
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redleghunter

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You have no intention of speaking truth. I’m glad you said that. It just shows everyone your true intention to twist what people say in order to discredit them. You do realize that is deceptive right?
Considering you added words to my quote, you are still not making the case for loss of salvation. Paul is making a concrete dichotomy here between how we as Christians are to be filled with the Spirit and not the flesh.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes in a sense but we must cooperate with the vine. Branches are cut off of the vine that don’t produce fruit. So just because someone is grafted into the vine fruit is not guaranteed unless they cooperate with the vine.
Why do you assume we would not cooperate? Of course unless one believes we no longer sin at all after conversion what is the threshold to be cut off. The Scriptures say no fruit at all. Which would mean such a branch never abided.

Question.

What makes a fruitful branch different than one which does not produce fruit?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Of course Sanctification is synergistic. Faith is not comatose. But that verse had to do with no fruit produced and not abiding.

I’m still looking for the verse where fruit is produced then stopped and cut off. Where’s that verse?

Also Ephesians 5 is not preaching loss of salvation. I’m still not seeing that. Paul is contrasting what it looks like to be a child of God and contrasts that with sons of disobedience.

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
 
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BNR32FAN

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Considering you added words to my quote, you are still not making the case for loss of salvation. Paul is making a concrete dichotomy here between how we as Christians are to be filled with the Spirit and not the flesh.

Where did I add words to your quote? I hit the reply button. I didn’t add anything to your quote.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Considering you added words to my quote, you are still not making the case for loss of salvation. Paul is making a concrete dichotomy here between how we as Christians are to be filled with the Spirit and not the flesh.

Ok I’m sorry that was my mistake I pasted the Bible quote in the wrong place. So the answer to your first question ended up in the middle portion of your quote. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Why do you assume we would not cooperate? Of course unless one believes we no longer sin at all after conversion what is the threshold to be cut off. The Scriptures say no fruit at all. Which would mean such a branch never abided.

Question.

What makes a fruitful branch different than one which does not produce fruit?

I think a few things actually. Devotion to serving God, respect for Him and love for others. I believe the scriptures give these examples as a source of works.
 
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ladodgers6

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Sola Fieta was a doctrine mostly invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. Because Luther only had a limited knowledge of scripture, he was initially unaware of scripture’s contradictions on the matter.

James 2 (context: St. James is settling disputes here between his fellow Christians who claim superiority and overassume salvation) states:
“My brothers, what benefit is there if someone claims to have faith, but he does not have works? How would faith be able to save him? and if anyone of you were to say to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and nourished," and yet not give them the things that are necessary for the body, of what benefit is this? Thus even faith, if it does not have works, is dead, in and of itself. Now someone may say: "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works! But I will show you my faith by means of works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. But the demons also believe, and they tremble greatly. So then, are you willing to understand, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfillment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? Similarly also, Rahab, the harlot, was she not justified by works, by receiving the messengers and sending them out through another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14, 16-26‬

When Luther was shown this passage by a local bishop, his response was to remove James from the Bible entirely (along with Revelation and others for different reasons).

Other passages are also very clear: While all salvation indeed comes from the grace of God through all-sufficient act of Christ, (see Ephesians 2:8-9 for this) faith alone will not save.

In Matthew 25 (“The Judgement of the Nations”), Christ is very clear that judgment is based on works.

Matthew 7:21-23 is very haunting for most Christians. In it, Christ says:
“Not all who say to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does the will of my Father, who is in heaven, the same shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and perform many powerful deeds in your name?' And then will I disclose to them: 'I have never known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬

Philippians 2:12 commands us to “work out [our] salvation in fear and trembling.”

Luther tried justifying his argument with passages like Romans 3:27, which at first seems to say faith alone. However, in context, it’s saying that works of the Law don’t justify the Jews, that they must also have faith. The gentiles can also have faith and be saved. In fact, verse 31 goes on to say not to replace works with faith. Another tactic Luther used was actually writing “alone” several places in his personal bible, which temporarily worked because the printing press was not in every home at the time and not everyone at a bible until a little later.

In conclusion, while God’s Grace is what saves us through Christ’s Sacrifice, and while some passages seem to even support Sola Fieta at first glance, good works are still needed to “earn” God’s free gift of salvation. Recall Christ’s parable in Matthew 22, of the Kings’s Banquet. The king sent out many invitations for his son’s wedding feast. Although many had the invitations, and acknowledged the king’s feast, they denied his offer through their lack of action. Remember that Jesus said to strive to enter through the narrow gate. If we die, and everything I just said is somehow wrong, but you also did works, and loved your neighbor through your actions, what harm was done?

I beg to differ. It went viral for Luther because of the invention of the printing press. You mean Sola Fide, correct? Anyway, Sola Fide was taught way earlier than Luther! It was even at one glorious time taught the Catholic Church, until Authority of the Church became more important than God's Word. The major mistake and correction of this Doctrine of Sola Fide both came from the Catholic Church.

The Latin Vulgate, Jerome's 4th century translation, had been the official translation throughout the middle ages. But then came the Renaissance, a recovery of classical learning that included a return to the original Greek text of Scripture. They found concerns of its translation of the Greek word 'dikaiosune,' which means 'to declare righteous' (It is a legal term, a verdict), but the Latin Vulgate had translated 'dikaiosune' with the Latin word 'iustificare,' which means 'to make righteous.'

Here comes the important pieces of history in regards to 'Sola Fide'. It was not Luther who corrected the mistranslation, but a Roman Catholic Priest named. Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus; aka Erasmus. So Erasmus and a host of classical scholars recognized that the Greek text required an understanding of justification that referred to change in status rather than to a change in behavior or mode of being. Again, Erasmus had no doctrinal stake in this matter. He was not only a loyal son of the Roman Church; he had engaged in heated polemics with Luther over free-will. Nevertheless, he was Europe's leading authority on the classical languages and could not overlook the glaring mistranslations. For this reason it has been said that Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched.

I'll conclude with the following:

Bearing the nihil obstat and imprimatur of the Roman Church, Sacramentum Mundi is a modern encyclopedia of Roman doctrine. In its article on Justification we read that Justification 'implies a relation with a judgement rather than a mode of being.'

'always has a certain forensic flavor which prevents its becoming a mere synonym of regeneration or re-creation. In later theology, however, this sense is often lost, and justification comes to mean nothing more than the infusion of grace (D 799). Now when St. Paul applies the juridical terminology to the new Christian reality, it acquires an entirely new meaning. It refers now not to the future but to the past (Rom. 5:9), not to the just man but the sinner (Rom. 4:5). And so the basis of justification must also be different. It can no longer be observance of the Law. It must be Christ, whom God has made our righteousness and sanctification and redemption (1 Cor. 1:30), which is the same thing as saying that we are justified by faith in Christ (Rom. 3:28).' [by Ricardo Franco, pp. 239-240]

What??? Rome wrote that!!!

Furthermore, arguably the two most widely respected Roman Catholic biblical scholars, J.A. Fitzmyer and Raymond Brown, have recognized that Justification is understood in the biblical text to mean legal acquittal and not a process of growth in inherent righteousness of the individual. 'Justification in the OT,' writes Fitzmyer, 'denotes one who stood acquitted or vindicated before a judge's tribunal...This uprightness (righteousness) does not belong to human beings (Rom. 10:3), and is not something that they produced or merited; it is an alien uprightness, one belonging to another (Christ) and attributed to them because of what that other had done for them...This justification comes about by grace and through faith' (Romans, AB 33, pp. 116-19).

What??? Roman Catholic scholars wrote that!!!

Hope that helps???​
 
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redleghunter

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“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Indeed the Shepherd protecting His sheep.

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
Indeed the sons of disobedience are not in Christ.
 
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