Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[redleghunter]

Which text in Ephesians 2, 2:10?..

180 posts and 9 pages. Good.

Your doctrine.. are we now just going to go bible vs bible, and have you practice your creative writing or will you now allow reason and logic to enter the debate?

Handle the text. Provide some exegesis.

 

[redleghunter]

I have addressed it. Now respond with an actual argument. I am sorry to inform you, Bible passages do not argue for themselves.

You provided an eisegesis on Grace ignoring the relationship of Grace and works in the text. One is birthed from the other.

Of course you know by cherrypicking one passage of Scripture what Paul's doctrine was and not, you know, the Apostles and their successors who knew Paul and taught faith+works. /s

It’s not cherry picking. It’s (1) taking the text as presented by the writer in the proper context. (2) drawing out the truth of the text based on (1).

For some reason most here think James 2:24 is interpretive of the entire NT. I have exposed that fallacy by appealing to Biblical exegesis. If the actual text cannot be handled based on sunk theological presumption then we will get nowhere.

 

[Cis.jd]

180 posts and 9 pages. Good.

I understand you guys love quoting Ep 2:8-9 a lot but I would like you to finish the message by quoting Ep 2:10... just one more time...

Handle the text. Provide some exegesis.

But that has been done already, by others here and you just ignore it so why not show that your doctrine makes any sense. If this Faith alone doctrine was true, then you shouldn't have a problem rationalizing it if the whole exegesis is getting repetitive. By the entire nature of your post past the 4 page, it's like you've lost your mind and just showing stubbornness and unwillingness to be reasoned with because you have too much pride to convince yourself that you have no defense on it.

 

[Cis.jd]

Spoiler: I had to do it, lol

I forgot he wanted to remove James from the canon.

 

[Halbhh]

So mostly good? Let’s test that with the high bar Jesus set at the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5: NASB
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect (NASB)

The standard for entry into the Kingdom of God is perfection as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Only Jesus Christ meets this standard. Right back to Romans chapter 5.

Let's look at the fully (together) --

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

See? The only perfect response to an enemy -- someone who has wronged us in some way -- is to love them.

No response is better. It is the perfect response.

We are to do it Christ commands -- just as God loved us when we were enemies (ref : 6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. --- For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son ... "

See -- God did this for us even when we were enemies!

That's "perfect".

We are also to be perfect the same way -- to love those we come into conflict with, instead of striking them, or ignoring them, or brushing them off, etc.

'If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.'

We are not perfect in the full way, but we are to do the perfect action, just as our Father in Heaven has done, of loving our enemies.

He asks, no...commands us to do this, and it's something we can do if we are looking to Him, keeping our eyes on Him, remaining in Him, relying on Him, praying as He said, then we very much definitely can do as He said here. But prayer -- this is very helpful quite often!

 

[Varangian Christian]

You provided an eisegesis on Grace ignoring the relationship of Grace and works in the text. One is birthed from the other.

I'm surprised you know the word eisegesis, though you should probably learn to use it correctly, in this case it being applicable to you.

The passage you provided shows one thing, that Grace is given by God alone. My analogy i gave you perfectly explains the meaning of grace in this passage and shows it does not contradict the necessity of works. Address my argument in proper debate and stop dodging like a snake.

It’s not cherry picking. It’s (1) taking the text as presented by the writer in the proper context. (2) drawing out the truth of the text based on (1).

The proper context of Scripture is within the Church, or at least in the whole of Scripture if you are a Protestant. What you have done, taking one verse by itself and reading into it your own confused preconceived ideas, is the definition of eisegesis.

For some reason most here think James 2:24 is interpretive of the entire NT. I have exposed that fallacy by appealing to Biblical exegesis. If the actual text cannot be handled based on sunk theological presumption then we will get nowhere.

You have not "exposed" anything. You and your argument are not special or new. I have also already "handled" the text you provided and others have as well. If you cannot wrap your mind around the difference between grace (the gift of God by which we are saved) and salvation (the lifelong process in which we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling") then you would do best to stop relying on your mind.

And please, at least address the analogy I gave you in a previous post. At least do that if you are going to ignore everything else.

 

[Varangian Christian]

I forgot he wanted to remove James from the canon.

Yea, good thing he was stopped. Sadly the deuterocanon was cut and now most Christians, including myself, don't know much about them.

 

[ripple the car]

Yea, good thing he was stopped. Sadly the deuterocanon was cut and now most Christians, including myself, don't know much about them.

One can always re-learn. I'm re-learning alot, too! Give yourself time.

 

[Varangian Christian]

Let's look at the fully (together) --

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

See? The only perfect response to an enemy -- someone who has wronged us in some way -- is to love them.

No response is better. It is the perfect response.

We are to do it Christ commands -- just as God loved us when we were enemies (ref : 6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. --- For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son ... "

See -- God did this for us even when we were enemies!

That's "perfect".

We are also to be perfect the same way -- to love those we come into conflict with, instead of striking them, or ignoring them, or brushing them off, etc.

'If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.'

We are not perfect in the full way, but we are to do the perfect action, just as our Father in Heaven has done, of loving our enemies.

He asks, no...commands us to do this, and it's something we can do if we are looking to Him, keeping our eyes on Him, remaining in Him, relying on Him, praying as He said, then we very much definitely can do as He said here. But prayer -- this is very helpful quite often!

I don't know which side of the argument you are on but I like your explanation.

How it was always explained to me was that perfect in those verses actually means mature, so when Jesus says we are to be perfect that means we are to be mature in our faith. And being mature in your faith would include loving ones enemies.

One can always re-learn. I'm re-learning alot, too! Give yourself time.

Thanks! May God bless us both in studying the Scriptures.

 

[Cis.jd]

Yea, good thing he was stopped. Sadly the deuterocanon was cut and now most Christians, including myself, don't know much about them.

what is your denomination?

 

[redleghunter]

The passage you provided shows one thing, that Grace is given by God alone. My analogy i gave you perfectly explains the meaning of grace in this passage and shows it does not contradict the necessity of works. Address my argument in proper debate and stop dodging like a snake.

Oh my making it personal.

The text does not support the necessity of works. It does say we are newly created for such to serve God.

To bring abiding in Christ as a necessity truly is making a statement. It makes it a requirement for God’s Grace which makes it no longer Grace. Why can’t you just believe the text taught by the apostle Paul. We are sinners God loves us in that while we were still sinners God made us alive in Jesus Christ by Grace through faith and not works. That He made us into new creations for His work and that we will walk in them.

Paul is actually not teaching something new. He is explaining the New Covenant promised in the OT. Notice the “I will” statements. Notice what God says He will do and why He is doing it. Look at the result of His actions is to evoke godly sorrow leading to repentance. It’s all there and Paul alludes to this in Ephesians 2.


Ezekiel 36: NASB
22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

 

[Varangian Christian]

what is your denomination?

Right now I am trying to become Orthodox. Otherwise, Ive never really been in a denomination. My parents were Pentecostals but quickly left and ever since we have lived as a house church.

 

[redleghunter]

Let's look at the fully (together) --

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

See? The only perfect response to an enemy -- someone who has wronged us in some way -- is to love them.

No response is better. It is the perfect response.

We are to do it Christ commands -- just as God loved us when we were enemies (ref : 6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. --- For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son ... "

See -- God did this for us even when we were enemies!

That's "perfect".

We are also to be perfect the same way -- to love those we come into conflict with, instead of striking them, or ignoring them, or brushing them off, etc.

'If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.'

We are not perfect in the full way, but we are to do the perfect action, just as our Father in Heaven has done, of loving our enemies.

He asks, no...commands us to do this, and it's something we can do if we are looking to Him, keeping our eyes on Him, remaining in Him, relying on Him, praying as He said, then we very much definitely can do as He said here. But prayer -- this is very helpful quite often!

The standard is still the perfection of the Father.

I don’t think you would advocate that while we are in these perishable bodies we will attain the perfection of the Father. Only One was perfectly obedient in life and death and that is Christ Jesus.

Frankly what you wrote and quoted is exactly what Ephesians 2:10 speaks of to include the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

What Ephesians 2:10 clearly states is we are equipped by God to walk in His ways.

Ezekiel 36:22-32 we see this Promise.

I already stated the saving faith of Ephesians 2 is not a “comatose” dead faith. Faith does indeed imply faithfulness. The text of the OP affirms this.

Why I am surprised we are getting the straw men of “what if” and “what about” when we need to stick with the text.

 

[Cis.jd]

Right now I am trying to become Orthodox. Otherwise, Ive never really been in a denomination. My parents were Pentecostals but quickly left and ever since we have lived as a house church.

I almost converted to Orthodox. Their theological views have always attracted me, and it still does. Where you are comfortable with is matters at the end.

 

[redleghunter]

Right now I am trying to become Orthodox.

Then you should enjoy St John Chrysostom’s Homily 4 on Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:8-10

Ver. 8. For by grace, says he have you been saved.

In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: by grace you have been saved, says he,

Through faith;

Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,

And that not of ourselves.

Neither is faith, he means, of ourselves.Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For how,says he, shall they believe, unless they hear?Romans 10:14 So that the work of faith itself is not our own.

It is the gift, said he, of God, it is not of works.

Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.

Ver. 9. That no man should glory.

That he may excite in us proper feeling touching this gift of grace. What then? says a man, Hath He Himself hindered our being justified by works? By no means. But no one, he says, is justified by works, in order that the grace and loving-kindness of God may be shown. He did not reject us as having works, but as abandoned of works He has saved us by grace; so that no man henceforth may have whereof to boast. And then, lest when you hear that the whole work is accomplished not of works but by faith, you should become idle, observe how he continues,

Ver. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Observe the words he uses. He here alludes to the regeneration, which is in reality a second creation. We have been brought from non-existence into being. As to what we were before, that is, the old man, we are dead. What we are now become, before, we were not. Truly then is this work a creation, yea, and more noble than the first; for from that one, we have our being; but from this last, we have, over and above, our well being.

For good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Not merely that we should begin, but that we should walk in them, for we need a virtue which shall last throughout, and be extended on to our dying day. If we had to travel a road leading to a royal city, and then when we had passed over the greater part of it, were to flag and sit down near the very close, it were of no use to us. This is the hope of our calling; for for good works he says. Otherwise it would profit us nothing.

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

 

[ripple the car]

@redleghunter , check out the last paragraph of Saint John Chrysostom's homily. It is, essentially, what we have been saying.

That to end well, to end the journey of salvation well, merits, good works, virtue, and love are needed. We begin in faith, which no work we do can merit our receiving, and by faith and works of our own will, as we walk along, as we follow Christ, God saves us. And continues to save us, until the end of the journey.

It really is a journey, friend. I hope you can see that.

 

[redleghunter]

@redleghunter , check out the last paragraph of Saint John Chrysostom's homily. It is, essentially, what we have been saying.

That to end well, to end the journey of salvation well, merits, good works, virtue, and love are needed. We begin in faith, which no work we do can merit our receiving, and by faith and works of our own will, as we walk along, as we follow Christ, God saves us. And continues to save us, until the end of the journey.

It really is a journey, friend. I hope you can see that.

It is a journey. My point all along is, and Chrysostom confirmed, we must be a new creation to walk in them. I agree with him. The saints will persevere and what he lists as traits of the new creation should be evident. Which evokes James, the remainder of Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians and the the remainder of the NT. Saving faith is not comatose. If we are in Christ we will imitate Him (Ephesians 5:1-2).

 

[UnprofitableServant]

What are people's thoughts on Luke 12:33. Should we take this scripture literally, or is there an easier interpretation we can make it say?
In peace

 

[redleghunter]

What are people's thoughts on Luke 12:33. Should we take this scripture literally, or is there an easier interpretation we can make it say?
In peace

Absolutely. Prior to this and after Jesus is telling His disciples not to be conformed to the world. This of course applies to us as well.
Luke 12: NASB
33“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[Varangian Christian]

The text does not support the necessity of works. It does say we are newly created for such to serve God.

It may come as a shock to you, but not all doctrines are explicitly outlined in one single passage of Scripture. Furthermore, if we are created for good works then it is necessary for us to do them.

To bring abiding in Christ as a necessity truly is making a statement. It makes it a requirement for God’s Grace which makes it no longer Grace.

Are you saying it is not a necessity to abide in Christ? Hmmm...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:13

Saint Matthew disagrees, as does James, as does every one of the Apostles and Church Fathers. I wonder who is right, lol.

And no, it does not make a requirement for God's grace. God's grace is given freely but we abide in that grace by works. It sounds like you are arguing for once saved always saved, if so then admit it and debate honestly.

Why can’t you just believe the text taught by the apostle Paul.

I do. As did all the early Church fathers and as the Church does today. You are not an authority.

We are sinners God loves us in that while we were still sinners God made us alive in Jesus Christ by Grace through faith and not works.

Yes, God made us alive by grace through faith. I do not disagree with that. You have confused the initial giving and receiving of grace with the lifelong process of salvation where we must, according to Paul:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Philippians 2:12

Salvation by grace and the necessity of works are NOT mutually exclusive. Get that through your head and you will be on your way to the truth.

That He made us into new creations for His work and that we will walk in them.

Are you saying that if we are "saved" that we will do good works as in we cannot sin after being saved? Speak clearly, man.

Paul is actually not teaching something new. He is explaining the New Covenant promised in the OT. Notice the “I will” statements. Notice what God says He will do and why He is doing it. Look at the result of His actions is to evoke godly sorrow leading to repentance. It’s all there and Paul alludes to this in Ephesians 2.

Nothing in those passages you provided, Ezekiel or Ephesians, contradicts our stance. You are making up a mutual exclusion between grace and works where there is none. Notice verse 27:

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:27

You already said this passage refers to the new Covenant, therefore in the new covenant we must do good works that God requires. Now your only argument would be to say that humans don't have free will and we are puppets. Is that your argument? Let us know so we can crush that heresy debate you honestly.

Then you should enjoy St John Chrysostom’s Homily 4 on Ephesians:

A person who is not part of an Apostolic Church cherrypicking and twisting the words of Chrurch Fathers who would condemn him as an heretic... wonderful.

As Gracia said above, his words support, not contradict, our beliefs.

Now before this goes any further you must make your beliefs absolutely clear. You have engaged in fundamentally dishonest behavior, purposely not making your stance clear and ignoring most of the arguments against you, and this farce must stop now
Do you believe in:

• Once saved always saved.
  
• Calvinism.
  
• That humans are puppets.
  
• etc.