Faith and Obedience

Guojing

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You have ZERO scriptural support for this and it shows you have NO IDEA what role the Torah was to play in the life of the believer. As I have repeatedly said ALL of mankind from Adam to the last ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Most of Yeshua's ministry was showing that the teachers of the law had PERVERTED IT...

Believers do the same thing today not understanding that YESHUA IS THE TORAH come to life. John makes this crystal clear in the 1st chapter of John when he says THE WORD BECAME FLESH. In a jews mind, Torah IS THE WORD. It is CLEAR this is what John is speaking of as the canonized new T did not yet exist

You don't think Acts 10 and 15 shows Peter's change of heart regarding Gentiles and the role that the Law now plays in salvation?

Acts 21 clearly stated James's continued insistence that the Jews must obey the Law even after they believed.

If you disagree with my interpretation of scripture, then state yours and I will examine it. But to say I have zero scripture when I actually presented scripture is rather silly don't you think?
 
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Guojing

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Jews in that day by merely being in the same dwelling as a Gentile were considered ritually UNCLEAN. The entire vision was about the fact that Gentiles were NOT unclean. The problem is that we gentiles are SO far removed from the Jewish foundation that we believe all sorts of things that are error and misunderstand that NONE of the apostles set aside the Torah INCLUDING PAUL James says this plainly and the very error that the church embraces today concerning the Torah was the very same that Paul and ALL the Apostles were fighting against. Acts 21 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

You mean you actually agreed that James was correct at Acts 21 to insist that obedience to the Law is still relevant to the Jews? Its not so clear from your above paragraph.
 
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Guojing

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The sad thing is you do not even understand what purpose the Torah has in the believer's life. Abraham was saved by FAITH, DAVID was saved by faith... if the Torah was set aside PLEASE tell me why did all the apostles observe Sabbath and the feast days until they died?

Every time there is a change in dispensation, there is a transition period. Acts is a book of transition,

James continue to insist in Acts 21 that the Torah is relevant for the Jews, and he is the head of the Jerusalem HQ so obviously his words carry a lot of weight. That explains why "all the apostles observe Sabbath and the feast days until they died", if that is indeed true.
 
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kcmonseysr

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Just curious as long as y'all are opining about keeping the Law:
  • Do any of you know if any of the Apostles ever participated in another Passover Seder - one of the three required Feasts - including partaking of a(nother) sacrificed lamb, during the forty years that the Temple remained between the Last Supper and the destruction of the Temple? I.e. did they follow the Law of Moses by partaking of a lamb sacrificed at the Temple on Pesach after the Lamb of God was offered once and for all?
  • If not, then did they then fail to follow Torah? If so, did they dishonor Messiah's sacrifice?
  • If the Law given at Sinai is still in charge of us (I'm not saying that the Law is done away with), how is it that Someone from the tribe of Judah is now our High Priest (Heb. 7:12-14).
  • Can anyone show me where it is forbidden for a believer, especially a believing Jew, to try to keep as much of the Law (keeping kosher, Shabbat, holidays, etc. comes to mind) as he is able to without a Temple available? After all did not Peter keep kosher (Acts 10:14) and did not Paul take four men whom he purified along with himself, giving notice in the Temple? (Acts 21:20-24) (I would hope that any believer doing this does not allow himself to become proud, puffed up in his own eyes, or condemning towards those who do not do the same; but may he be humbled as he realizes just how short of the Glory of God he falls as he attempts but fails to keep the Law.)
 
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Truth Lover

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Obedience is the flip side of the coin from faith. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant[a] of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God... 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;
 
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DeepWater

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I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.

A person has the true understanding, the literal revelation of Salvation, ....THIS begins at the very instant they stop trying to add any conditions to Grace, and understand why and can explain it.
The revelation of Salvation, is that Jesus is Salvation, Jesus is Grace.
The Grace of God, is Salvation, and Jesus is the Grace of God.

Legalism, the legalist, is the person who does not yet understand why God accepts and "saves" a person.
The Legalist is always found on forums like this one, trying to endlessly prove that the Grace of God, is a "2 part" invention.
The Cross + Works.
This of course is Galatians 1:8.
The Legalist has an issue with their self righteousness, and this is why the Legalist adds TO the Cross their effort, (some call it obedience... others call it enduring to the end).....all Legalists have their LIST of do's and don't do's they nail to the blood of Jesus as their religious self righteous method to try to (of themselves) STAY Saved. .. To keep themselves saved...........is their Theology.
But, the truly born again person, who has the understanding of Grace... "by Grace you are saved and this is NOT OF YOURSELF"..... is trusting in Christ alone= to keep them saved.
The Legalist, does not trust in Christ ALONE, to KEEP THEM SAVED.
And the reason they dont trust in Christ alone to Keep them Saved, is because they have "fallen from Grace".
 
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lsume

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I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.
Obedience is a measure of one’s faith. The more faith, the more obedient one becomes.

Matt.7
  1. [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Doing The Will of God The Father is obedience. Sin is being disobedient to The Will of God The Father.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Yes, but it was always that way. Paul’s whole point in Romans is that Jews and Gentiles are saved the same way, and always were.

When were Gentiles included? Was it always or when the eligibility criteria was removed?

Jesus and the rich young man only talk about part of it, presumably because the young man already understood what every Jew understood: Israel was God’s people solely through God’s grace; they certainly didn’t merit being chosen from the nations. Having been chosen (justified would be Paul’s term) without merit, they were then responsible for keeping the commandments. For Jesus that’s the 10 commandments, but we see elsewhere that he had a unique take on those commandments that turned them more into a statement of the need to love God and neighbor than legal requirements.

They were chosen without merit and were to manifest the ability to survive even living selflessly, thus showing what God desired could be performed, thereby turning humanity to God, a fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. However, their cowardice led them to ask for a contract that protected their lives.

Jeremiah 7
22“For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23“But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’

God did not want that contract, but gave it to them, since it served another purpose, it revealed sin. It showed what happened to defaulters, death, the body of the sacrifice was cut in half,and circumcision was the symbol of that penalty. This Covenant did not, could not, replace the original Covenant, the unconditional promise to Abraham that his descendants, identified by loyalty, would gather God's lost sheep. It was added on top of the original Covenant. Those who observed works of the law would be protected from wrath. Those who were loyal to God, feared Him and did what was right, they would become the means through which the world would be blessed.

Interestingly, Jesus told the rich young man to follow only those commands of loyalty to God, since death no longer was a penalty. He was going to end that contract, with the cross.

Paul tells us that this arrangement has now been expanded to include Gentiles. They are also justified by grace through faith, just as Israel was. And they are also expected to abide by the commandments — with Jesus’ understanding of them — and would be held accountable for doing so.

The difference is not that Gentiles were now included, since they always were, but without a Covenant. The difference is that Gentiles would now be allowed to manifest the Kingdom of God in a special Way, living selfless lives and not losing out, because the Finger of God sustained the believer, but also because the Sabbath Rest prefigured in Law was now a reality in Christ. He who was without sin had been made a sin offering, so that in Him, all believers, not just Jew, could become the righteousness of God, the fulfilment of His promise to Abraham that those in his Seed would become blessings to the world in the same way Christ was a blessing.

Of course Jesus adds a new element to the picture. We now have the new covenant, which writes the law into our hearts. But the fundamental scheme is the same: justified by grace and accountable for how we live in response.

The Old Covenant was written on a stone tablet, was a job description, circumcision of the male child, to reveal the penalty of sin, cutting in half, death, in return for escaping wrath, just like circumcision of Zephaniah's child, was compensated by turning away wrath from Moses. The New Covenant was written on the heart, requiring internalising the character of God, as befitting co-heirs with Christ, sons. The family member never works for a wage, but works to protect what already belongs to him, family.
 
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fhansen

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I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.
We need to question whether we're truly in a justified state if obedience is lacking. Either way faith does not remove our obligation to be righteous, so knowing that obligation continues to only be a good thing, even if it can only be authentically realized thru relationship with God, established by faith.
 
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Wordkeeper

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You need to follow Law, to gentiles which is our conscience. We will certainly fail. That's why we need faith in order to be qualified by the covenant as the righteous. Faith never implies you don't need to act in accordance to your conscience.


You need to always try your best to act by your conscience (which is based off God Law in our hearts). However you will for sure fail at some point, as even our conscience is a twisted version though based off God's Law. That's why some criminals don't feel bad to harm others. We don't have a standardized conscience because our conscience now at best is just a reflection of God's Law. Our heart (everyone's heart with no exception, that's why no one can be righteous in front of Law, not even one) with our conscience is said to be hardened.


An actual example. We have money in excess to enjoy our lives however children in Africa are dying of hunger. We are actually murderer in terms of God's Law. However our conscience may not tell us how serious it is to enjoy our lives while watching the children die. That's how we fail. That's where we need faith instead of the work of Law to be saved, simply because we can't be saved this way at all. However all this by no means says that we don't need to try our best to act by our conscience (a form of Law).


The covenant made with Abraham is that those who are his descendants, identified by faith, loyalty, will be blessings to the world. Loyalty means those who fear God and do what is right. These are found both among the Jews as well as the Gentiles, confirming that Abraham’s descendants are not identified by blood links, but by right thinking and acting. Now let’s be even more clear about what loyalty means.


If my servant is facing an enemy and fights him, he is loyal. However if the enemy is very strong, my servant will prefer to call for help, or retreat, to not lose his life unnecessarily. God knows that the servant has not been disloyal. This is what the text says: What is impossible for man is possible with God. So if a man does not do what is right when it is impossible to do what is right, it is not a failure. Who will save us from this body of death, which cannot obey the mind, the spirit of man?


Again, faith is translated as loyalty in the Ancient Near East. So a statement like “Faith never implies you don't need to act in accordance to your conscience” makes no sense. Loyalty includes both belief in a leader's thinking, in this case the need for righteousness, but also acting in character with that righteousness.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Here we go.... another Christian who confuses observing the Torah with trying to gain salvation by observing and practicing obedience.
Actually, he is saying loving God and being obedient is only being in character.

If we simplify the description of right wingers as those who believe in people receiving what they work for, that is fairness, justice (all good attributes), and left wingers as those who believe in helping those who can't help themselves, that is mercy (also a good attribute), then left winger, who are true to their ideology, actually enjoy doing social work.
 
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Wordkeeper

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The sad thing is you do not even understand what purpose the Torah has in the believer's life. Abraham was saved by FAITH, DAVID was saved by faith... if the Torah was set aside PLEASE tell me why did all the apostles observe Sabbath and the feast days until they died?
Colossians 2
16Thereforelet no one judge you by what you eat or drink, orwith regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Well, then you have a problem because at the end of acts James instructs Paul to take himself and 2 other men to go to the temple and take the vow of the Nazarene which included making sacrifices. CLEARLY, Paul did NOT agree with your view on the role the Torah plays. Paul >>>> than the confused gentiles that have set aside Scripture in for their traditions of man.
Acts records the events that occurred at the cusp of the two covenants, is a transitional period when the requirements of both covenants were being observed. It would eventually result in the requirements of only the new covenart being observed, so we should not take the instructions seen in Acts to be the norm, always be in force. Also, Paul was instructed to follow Old Covenant law because he was teaching Gentiles not to allow themselves to be circumcised, and was being accused of an offense: preaching that the cross eliminated the need for crucifixion. Paul refused to perpetuate the practice of circumcision, but because he continued to observe the law himself, the Judaisers claimed he was being obedient to them. Paul later clarifies this situation. If he was advocating law keeping for Gentiles, why was he being persecuted? He was teaching non observance of law, circumcision being unnecessary to be included in the Assembly of the People of God. He wasn't objecting to Jews being circumcised because they were already circumcised!
 
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Wordkeeper

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Show me 1 single scripture that PROVES conclusively that Yeshua set aside the Torah. Biblical exegesis Says that you need at least 2 scripture verses that CONCLUSIVELY establish a doctrine as having veracity. The Torah is so foundational to the relationship with the Father. Are you prepared to say that you believe the 10 commandments are now just the 10 Suggestions? If you believe this you are following a doctrine of devils. Yeshua himself said... Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself... FOR UPONE THESE 2 the ENTIRY of the Torah and prophets are ESTABLISHED. The Torah is 100% about HOW you love G-d and how you are to love your neighbor. God spells it out so that YOU and I are not left "doing what is right in our own eyes.." every time in scripture you see that phrase GOd calls that EVIL

God gave Torah to Israel because she wanted to be protected from God's wrath. SO God gave Israel a covenant of compensation: Israel would be the pre-publicist of Messiah (Torah pointed to Christ, in whom eternal life would be found), and in compensation, wages, would be given, Israel, the hired hand for prepublicising and preserving the identification marks of Christ, would evade God's wrath. Unfortunately, Israel only observed the minor points of the law, leaving out its weightier points, justice, mercy and faithfulness. So what was supposed to give life, only brought death. This covenant was added to the covenant made with Abraham, the grant, the gift, that all those who were descendants of Abraham, identified by faith, loyalty, would become blessings to the world. This covenant was never superseded by the Mosaic Covenant, and believers in Israel continued to become blessings to the world, by bringing people back to God, like Joshua and Caleb, whose manifestations of God's great works brought Rahab back to God.


Jeremiah 7
22For when I brought your fathers out of the land of Egypt, I did not merely command them about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23but this is what I commanded them: Obey Me, and I will be your God, and you will be My people. You must walk in all the ways I have commanded you, so that it may go well with you.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Nope you are clinging to error. If the Torah were done away with Messiah would have addressed this issue... you clearly have no concept how FOUDATIONAL it is... Then do explain why in the Milenial reign the Sabbath aand Feast day of Adonai will be observed BY ALL. And those nations that are not in obedience will have rain withheld from them
Circumcision is a cut, symbolising the death of the defaulter, also shown in the body of the animal cut in half, in the sacrifice Abraham made at the time of making his covenant with God. The defaulter is the People of God, and Christ paid the penalty: cursed is He who is hung from a tree. Closing the Covenant. Now that the penalty has been paid, why should believers continue to publicise a symbolic death? If circumcision is still practiced it means that the penalty has not been paid.

Similarly continuing to observe Sabbath means our Sabbath rest has not come, the day when Israel did not go out to collect manna, but was still enjoying its benefits of labour it had not done, just as we enjoy the benefits of salvation, while resting from our labours.
 
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..... If the Torah were done away with Messiah would have addressed this issue... you clearly have no concept how FOUDATIONAL it is... Then do explain why in the Milenial reign the Sabbath aand Feast day of Adonai will be observed BY ALL. And those nations that are not in obedience will have rain withheld from them

The Torah according to the Jews is the first five books of the Old Testament. The Torah contains the history of mankind during the time of the Law of Moses, but it also contains the history of mankind before the Old Covenant Law of Moses was implemented. The New Testament contains some history of mankind before the Old Covenant Law of Moses was implemented and also some history of mankind during the Law of Moses and also some history about the Old Covenant Law of Moses that was made obsolete by Jesus' New Covenant/Law of Christ. The Law of Moses passed away/vanished away completely when the temple in Jerusalem with its altar for animal sacrifice was destroyed in 70 A.D.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv

Christ's perfect sacrifice, His death on the cross, ended the Law of Moses. Keeping the Law of Moses no longer justifies a person under Christ's New Covenant. Circumcision of the flesh was a requirement under the Law of Moses but circumcision of the flesh is not a requirement under the Law of Christ. Acts 15:1-20


Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law (of Moses), that every one who has faith may be justified. rsv

Galatians 3:23-26
Now before faith (Law of Christ) came, we were confined under the law (of Moses with its circumcision of the flesh), kept under restraint until faith (the Law of Christ) should be revealed. 24 So that the law (of Moses) was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith (Law of Christ, circumcision of the heart). 25 But now that faith (Law of Christ) has come, we are no longer under a custodian (Law of Moses); 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. rsv

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law (of Moses' by the circumcision of your foreskin's flesh); you have fallen away from grace (law of Christ). rsv


The Old Testament's Ten Commandments), the ethical commandments of the Old Testament, were incorporated into the Law of Christ and they are summed up in the following:

Mark 12:28-33
"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he; 33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” rsv


Apocalyptic literature is not intended to be understood in a literal manner.

Actually, the millennial reign of a thousand years is the long time period between the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ and His Second Coming. "A thousand" is a symbolic number. It is not meant to be understood as an actual literal number.

Example:


Psalm 50:10
For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. rsv

In reality, God owns all the cattle on all the hills on earth, not just the cattle on a thousand hills.

There is no passage of time in eternity. There are no days, no nights, no weeks, no years, and so no literal weekly sabbaths or special feast days are celebrated in heaven. Eternity with God in heaven is the eternal sabbath rest for the righteous.

Hebrews 4:1-12
Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall never enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this place he said,
“They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. 9 So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; 10 for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. rsv
 
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Ratjaws

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I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.
You've come very close to the truth but in order to to get there fully one has to be in context of the whole bible. As St. Paul said we are '"saved by grace through faith." Also as St. Peter insisted "baptism now saves you." From your texts and what I've just quoted it is clear faith is the means to acquire salvation that is obtained when one's soul is immersed in sanctifying grace. A person in the state of grace is fit for heaven (Adam and Eve were created in a state of grace and lost it when they sinned). In short baptism enters us into the life of grace while disobedience to God's will can deprive us of that Grace. We can do good either outside a state of grace or in that state but only with grace do our works (of love) please God... that is in relation to our salvation (good works without grace pleases God but has no salvific value.) As you and others here correctly say works of the law cannot save us... the law is protective against those who refuse to live in charity (selfless love). The law is a guide or teacher to help everyone see what only charity can give... the minimum required of us before God. In short we are not saved by faith alone but by grace that comes via faith.
 
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hedrick

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Part of the problem with debates over salvation by faith is that no Biblical writer actually says such a thing. Paul says we are justified by faith. But justification isn't identical with salvation. Justification is how we are set right with God, and also what defines us as one of God's people.

"Save" and "salvation" is used in a variety of contexts, but at times Paul does clarify its relationship with justification:

“Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.e 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.” (Rom 5:9-10)

Dunn’s commentary on this passage notes that in Paul save is almost always in future tense. Justification establishes a new relationship with God through Christ; secure in that relationship we then have new life, not just in final judgement but (partially) now.

If salvation is eternal life, then it is conceptually distinct from justification but is built on it.

One of the distinctive properties of Jesus’ teaching is that he emphasizes motivation and intent. That’s clearest in Mat 5 but is present throughout his teaching. Good fruit comes from good trees. It’s hard to see how we can be justified and not also produce good fruit.

However that doesn’t mean that everyone who is justified will meet tests that various Christians set up. Sinlessness. Not being guilty of whatever you think is the most serious sin. Repenting from every sin they commit. One of the problems with being imperfect is that we don’t even recognize all of our sins. Furthermore, Christians don’t even agree on what is sin. You see discussions all the time in CF. I think anyone who votes for Trump has rejected the Gospel. I’ve seen claims that using instruments in worship is sin, that drinking alcohol is sin, that believing in evolution is apostasy. I’m sure we’ll find out who is right at the last judgement — I’m no relativist who claims that everyone is right — but there’s no sign in the NT that we’re damned because of such errors. Well, maybe not voting for Trump. :)
 
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kcmonseysr

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For what it’s worth, I have to agree with those on this forum that argue that the Law of Moses is still active, even as Scripture affirms:

17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven Matt 5:17-19​

And Paul by using the present tense - well after the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah - is clearly acknowledging that the Law still exists:

7 What shall we say then? IS the law sin? …12 So that the law IS holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. Rom. 7:7,12​

Hence, the “all things” spoken of by Yeshua were not yet accomplished as of Paul’s day. Nor do I believe that “all things” have yet been accomplished in our day…

So, it seems to me that the big question that should be being addressed is in regard to just what, if any, is the authority/power of the Law over us who are now living in Messiah - i.e. born of the Spirit of God? I.e. has THAT relationship with the Torah changed? And I would say that the Scripture says YES!

1 Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth?But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:1,6-7

4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom. 10:4

19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. 21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. Gal. 2:19-21​

So, as a nice Jewish lawyer once put it to me: As long as you are living/residing in the State of Pennsylvania you are subject to the laws of that State. But if you cross over the border to the State of New York, then at that time you are no longer subject to the laws of Pennsylvania. However, you do then become subject to the Laws of the State of New York. If we have been born again/born anew, we have crossed the border and are no longer subject to the Law of Moses. But we have not ended the Law of Moses, and those who still reside in that state of being (the natural man) are still under Torah - or Noahide Law. Yet we who have entered into a new state are certainly free, if we so choose, to obey (going back to the State analogy) all or some of the Laws of Pennsylvania (insofar as those laws do not contravene the laws of the State of New York where we are currently - hopefully - residing). But obeying the laws of the State of Pennsylvania does not make us better New Yorkers. And we are not at all free to insist that our current fellow residents of the State of New York MUST also follow the laws of Pennsylvania along with us.
 
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