Faith and Atheism

[brightlights]

^ short title. Long title: "The tendency of faith and the phenomenon of atheism."

Here is my contention:

Humans tend to believe in God*. Atheists are those who have come to reject this belief that they (at one time) tended to have.

If we can agree on this I will share the purpose of this contention.

* or gods or supernatural persons

 

[Hawisher]

I really doubt that you'll get any agreement on that from atheists, and as a theist I wouldn't agree with it strongly enough to affirm it.

 

[brightlights]

I really doubt that you'll get any agreement on that from atheists, and as a theist I wouldn't agree with it strongly enough to affirm it.

I should better define my terms. When I say "believe in God" what I mean is "have a feeling that God exists" and possibly that we owe him something. I do not mean belief in a sense of saving faith -- meaning radical trust and dependance.

If belief is taken to mean the latter I would say that humans have a tendency to doubt God. But I'm using the former definition for this discussion.

 

[Davian]

^ short title. Long title: "The tendency of faith and the phenomenon of atheism."

Here is my contention:

Humans tend to believe in God*. Atheists are those who have come to reject this belief that they (at one time) tended to have.

If we can agree on this I will share the purpose of this contention.

* or gods or supernatural persons

I have never had a belief in deities or the supernatural, other than finding ghost stories to be creepy-scary as a kid, and Santa Claus.

As for the 'tendency of faith', on that I would agree:

Why We Believe in Gods - Dr. Andy Thomson (American Atheists 2009) - YouTube

 

[Sectio Aureo]

I am an atheist yet my desire to believe in a deity is stronger than many christians I know, if I could believe, I would believe, its not simply a case of rejecting belief or denying a belief. I believe my position is more honest than some christians who do not believe, yet they deny their atheism. They find their apparent christianity more advantageous than being truthful.

There are many atheists who have never believed in their entire lifetime so your assertion they once believed is unfounded.

I personally look forward to the day when a deity is discovered and proven, I just think its unlikely to ever happen.

 

[Elioenai26]

I personally look forward to the day when a deity is discovered and proven, I just think its unlikely to ever happen.

You will never see that day then. For the divine is not something that is "discovered and proven" as you put it. You seem to think God would be akin to a novel object that one finds and proves to the world by saying: "Look, here, in this test-tube, or look here, under the microscope, or look here, through the telescope...I have found the divine, I have proven God..."

It does not work that way.

 

[tonybeer]

You will never see that day then. For the divine is not something that is "discovered and proven" as you put it. You seem to think God would be akin to a novel object that one finds and proves to the world by saying: "Look, here, in this test-tube, or look here, under the microscope, or look here, through the telescope...I have found the divine, I have proven God..."

It does not work that way.

Everything else does, so God should not be an exception to the rules. You can't claim that something exists, yet you cannot prove it with the methods you would use to prove anything else exists.

If a scientific method did prove God to exist however, I'm sure you wouldn't say it was flawed because the methodolgy was wrong.

 

[tansy]

Everything else does, so God should not be an exception to the rules. You can't claim that something exists, yet you cannot prove it with the methods you would use to prove anything else exists.

If a scientific method did prove God to exist however, I'm sure you wouldn't say it was flawed because the methodolgy was wrong.

It doesn't seem to me and, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think most scientists would think that one could prove God's existence by the scientific method. He's kind of more elusive than that.
He is 'spirit'..have we found a way of scientifically proving the existence of 'spirit' or the spiritual realm? I'm not sure that we could invent any instruments or suchlike that could actually prove or quantify that.

 

[Davian]

You will never see that day then. For the divine is not something that is "discovered and proven" as you put it. You seem to think God would be akin to a novel object that one finds and proves to the world by saying: "Look, here, in this test-tube, or look here, under the microscope, or look here, through the telescope...I have found the divine, I have proven God..."

It does not work that way.

Special pleading. Again.

 

[tonybeer]

He is 'spirit'..have we found a way of scientifically proving the existence of 'spirit' or the spiritual realm? I'm not sure that we could invent any instruments or suchlike that could actually prove or quantify that.

If they existed and interacted with the world be most definitely could.

 

[Davian]

It doesn't seem to me and, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think most scientists would think that one could prove God's existence by the scientific method. He's kind of more elusive than that.
He is 'spirit'..have we found a way of scientifically proving the existence of 'spirit' or the spiritual realm? I'm not sure that we could invent any instruments or suchlike that could actually prove or quantify that.

Is this "God" of any significance?

 

[Elioenai26]

Everything else does, so God should not be an exception to the rules. You can't claim that something exists, yet you cannot prove it with the methods you would use to prove anything else exists.

If a scientific method did prove God to exist however, I'm sure you wouldn't say it was flawed because the methodolgy was wrong.

I believe the great French Mathematician, Blaise Pascal's words will be of some benefit to you:

Pascal on God's Hiddenness

​

"God has willed to redeem men and to open salvation to those who seek it. But men render themselves so unworthy of it that it is right that God should refuse to some, because of their obduracy, what He grants others from a compassion which is not due to them. If He had willed to overcome the obstinacy of the most hardened, He could have done so by revealing Himself so manifestly to them that they could not have doubted of the truth of His essence; as it will appear at the last day, with such thunders and such a convulsion of nature that the dead will rise again, and the blindest will see Him.” It is not in this manner that He has willed to appear in His advent of mercy, because, as so many make themselves unworthy of His mercy, He has willed to leave them in the loss of the good which they do not want.

It was not, then, right that He should appear in a manner manifestly divine, and completely capable of convincing all men; but it was also not right that He should come in so hidden a manner that He could not be known by those who should sincerely seek Him.

He has willed to make himself quite recognizable by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their heart. He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not. There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition."

- Blaise Pascal, Pensées

(430)
Pascal on God's Hiddenness - Apologetics 315

 

[Elioenai26]

Special pleading. Again.

How?

 

[Elioenai26]

Is this "God" of any significance?

For some He is the most significant.

 

[tansy]

If they existed and interacted with the world be most definitely could.

Tell me how, then.

 

[tansy]

Is this "God" of any significance?

Of course!

I might as well ask if quarks have any significance...I've never seen any, or how they work in the universe.

 

[Davian]

How?

You just used that fallacy, here.

 

[Elioenai26]

You just used that fallacy, here.

I do not want to be a part of derailing this thread. I am done here for the time being. I hope you understand.

 

[brightlights]

I have never had a belief in deities or the supernatural, other than finding ghost stories to be creepy-scary as a kid, and Santa Claus.

Really? Never? Have you ever said a prayer in your life? Maybe when you were a kid? Thrown up a prayer of desperation? Were you connected to a church in any way growing up?

As for the 'tendency of faith', on that I would agree:

Why We Believe in Gods - Dr. Andy Thomson (American Atheists 2009) - YouTube

Currently don't have the time, but I look forward to watching this video in the next few days.

 

[yasic]

I have no issue with the statement that humans tend to believe in gods, I agree with it.

Not all atheists have at some point believed in gods, but I would venture that most probably have at some point, myself included.