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Faith Alone?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jan 5, 2003.

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  1. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note again that a work of faith, "remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thessalonians 1:3), "the work of faith with power" (2 Thessalonians 1:11), is not a work of the law (Romans 3:28) or a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). 

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

    "Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16).

    "They should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20).

    "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

    Again, we only sin because we want to. We are never tempted beyond our ability to bear it. There is always a way of escape if we are willing to receive it from God:

    "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    I believe when Paul said "what I hate, that do I" (Romans 7:15) and "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:25), that he could not have been referring to the situation of someone who is saved, but must have been referring to the situation of someone under the Mosaic law, without the Spirit of Christ:

    "The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2).

    "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit" (Romans 7:5-6).

    "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:12-13).

    We can avoid condemnation only if we "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1).

    "Make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:14).

    "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16).

    "That the man of God may be perfect" (2 Timothy 3:17).

    "Be ye therefore perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

    "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5).

    "Denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:12).

    "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Corinthians 9:27).

    "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

    "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8).

    "As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked" (1 Samuel 24:13).

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:22-23).

    "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" (2 Peter 2:20).

    "There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness" (Proverbs 30:12).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient" (Titus 1:16).

    "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah" (Jeremiah 23:14).

    "I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly" (Proverbs 5:14).

    "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12, 16:25).
     
  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe 1 act of sin is enough for us to lose our salvation, if we don't repent from it; and 1,000 are not enough, if we repent from them.

    I believe if we Christians continue in a sin until death without repentance, then we will be d*mned: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    But if we Christians repent from our sins we will not be lost: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Revelation 2:5).
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    If we are to be followers of Christ, we must work daily for him:

    "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?" (Luke 9:23-25).

    "For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work" (Mark 13:34).

    "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

    "That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:17).

    "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness" (Romans 12:6-8).

    "They which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them" (2 Corinthians 5:15).

    "Thou wicked and slothful servant... Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:26, 30).

    "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 7:19).

    "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away... He is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:2, 6).
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means that God did not give us the gift of faith based upon our prior works, for "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). But once we have received the gift of faith it must be accompanied by works, for "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17); "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

    Note that Paul said "we are labourers together with God" (1 Corinthians 3:9). I believe we have to hold onto both Philippians 2:12 and Philippians 2:13 at the same time. If we take one and not the other we can fall either into the wrong kind of fear (1 John 4:18) or into complacency (Titus 1:16).

    While "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), and "thou also hast wrought all our works in us" (Isaiah 26:12), and "without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5); note that at the same time it says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), and "I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8), and "let every man prove his own work" (Galatians 6:4), and "every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour" (1 Corinthians 3:8), and "I will give unto every one of you according to your works" (Revelation 2:23), and "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10-11).

    "I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (James 2:18-25).

    If we contribute nothing toward our good works getting done, what does it mean to "be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8), and to "consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works" (Hebrews 10:24), and why would Paul say "the labourer is worthy of his reward" (1 Timothy 5:18), and why would Jesus say "I know thy works, and thy labour" (Revelation 2:2) and "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:21), and why would the Spirit say "that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them" (Revelation 14:13), and what will we be rewarded for at the judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10-11)? "Every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour" (1 Corinthians 3:8); "let every man prove his own work" (Galatians 6:4).

    Though all our good works come from Christ, we must still make an effort, for a branch in Christ can fail to bear fruit: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away" (John 15:2); "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" (Luke 13:24); "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run" (1 Corinthians 9:24-26), "I press toward the mark" (Philippians 3:14).
     
  5. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

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    "If we are to be followers of Christ, we must work daily for him: "

    I agree, but none of that implies fruit, it implies God shaping you to PRODUCE fruit. Again, we can clearly see the christian isn't always producing 'fruit'.

    Its pretty easy to understand..a tree doesn't always produce fruit, nor do we. When training you don't always succeed, sometimes you fail, but that doesn't mean you're off the team.
     
  6. his-girl

    his-girl Saved by Grace

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    Earlier today I was posting on the forum 'One Bread, One Body -Discussion on Catholic Beliefs'...'Protestants, Sins and Salvation, Oh My!' thread and was told by 'chelcb' the following:

    I was wondering why Catholics are able to come into the Non-Demominational/Reformed/Protestant Discussions and debate Protestant beliefs..when we are shown the door in their section when we do the same? 

    In Christ,
     
  7. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

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    Postrib answer the questions.

    You who do not even practice what you preach, is going to sit there and tell me that I must beleive what you believe?!?

    You will condemn yourself with what you believe and say.

    1. Do you sin?

    2. How often?

    3.Lets say you recieve the Holy Spirit, and now  you commit adultery, are you now considered, unsaved, and must renew yourself back with God, or you will goto hell?

    So now answer these questions as well as the others. Because this going around in circles with scripture is getting nowhere. I say this verse means this, and you say it means that.
     
  8. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

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  9. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

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    Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any mans's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  1cor 3:12-15
     
  10. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

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    "I was wondering why Catholics are able to come into the Non-Demominational/Reformed/Protestant Discussions and debate Protestant beliefs..when we are shown the door in their section when we do the same? "

    Hmm..you can PM a mod or an admin for an "official" reason if you'd like. I'd personally encourage it because more information on something is usually a good thing :)
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    If we fail to produce fruit, we will be d*amned:

    "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 7:19).
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Again, if we Christians repent from our sins we will not be lost: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Revelation 2:5).

    But if we Christians continue in a sin until death without repentance, then we will be d*amned: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29).
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the context of Romans 4:5 shows that Paul is not referring to works of faith but is consistently referring to works of the law:

    "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28).

    "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith" (Romans 4:13).

    "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect" (Romans 4:14).

    "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Romans 4:15-16).

    Note that a work of faith, "remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thessalonians 1:3), "the work of faith with power" (2 Thessalonians 1:11), is not a work of the law (Romans 3:28).

    Note that this is why James explains the exact same verse in Genesis as Paul does, showing that Abraham was justified by a work of faith:

    "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6).

    "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Romans 4:3).

    "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (James 2:23).

    "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:21-24).
     
  14. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe the prior context of 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 shows that Paul is speaking of any man's work of church planting (1 Corinthians 3:5-11), not of all his good works. The wicked, slothful servant will be cast out:

    "Thou wicked and slothful servant... Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:26, 30).

    "Be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises" (Hebrews 6:12).

    "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away... He is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:2, 6).
     
  15. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

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    If this is true then why did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5:

    It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    This person was clearly unrepentant and Paul said his "spirit would be saved."
     
  16. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

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    postrib why do you insult me by not answering my questions?

    Why do you preach that what you do not practice?
     
  17. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

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    "If we fail to produce fruit, we will be d*amned: "

    You're taking my statemtents out of context. I said SPECIFICALLY that we do not produce fruit all the time, and this is what goes against the must produce fruit position.
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 does not refer to the killing of the person that sinned, but to his punishment and subsequent repentance (2 Corinthians 2:4-10).
     
  19. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that I have not insulted you, but have understood your various questions to be multiple variations of the basic question regarding our sinning subsequent to our salvation, which question I believe I have answered multiple times within this thread.

    Why do you assume that I do not practice what I preach?

    My hope is that we can avoid all ad hominem and discuss what the scriptures themselves say.
     
  20. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note again that it doesn't go against the must produce fruit position because "every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 7:19).
     
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