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Faith Alone?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jan 5, 2003.

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  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Are you saved by "faith alone?"

    Not according to the Bible:

    James - Chapter 2

    You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
    Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
    You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
    Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
    See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    Perhaps you think that "justified" doesnt equate to salvation? Then what did James mean by faith alone being useless?

    Is there something I am missing here?
     
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  2. Jephunneh

    Jephunneh Active Member

    703
    +0
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15


    Who is James writing to?
    James 1
    1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    All things in God’s word have spiritual application to you, but not all things have doctrinal application to you personally.

    Keep in mind that God spoke the words recorded in the Bible in "sundry times and diverse manners" (Heb. 1:1): to different people at different times. Thus the Scriptures were not written only for believers in the present Church Age, they were written for believers (and unbelievers) of all the ages.


    The Bible was written FOR everyone for their learning (Rom. 15:4) but not addressed TO everyone in every age for doctrine. True, every verse in the Bible applies doctrinally somewhere, but many verses found in it do not apply doctrinally today. Can you understand this?

    Of course, any Bible passage can be used inspirationally in any dispensation to help teach a present truth, but doctrine is another matter.

    For instance, most will agree the laws God gave to Israel through Moses do not apply doctrinally to Christians. The Israelites had strict religious, social, and dietary laws they had to comply with (Lev. ch. 1-15), but none of these laws, as laws, apply to believers today (Col. 2:14). A Jew at that time even had to have a human priest to work in his behalf towards God; today, every Christian is a priest himself (1 Peter 2:9). If one doesn't rightly divide the word of truth he can't help but wrest it, no matter how "sincere and devoted" he is.
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "Church Age," but instead says that the church is "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21), and that there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

    "I have not found thy works perfect before God" (Revelation 3:2).

    "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away" (John 15:2).
     
  4. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +171
    Protestant
    Single
    by Abraham's action:

    he was not declared to be righteous, but shown (demonstrate) to be righteous.

    the good works (good fruits) are what brought faith to maturity. Thus faith, is the root of a tree, and deeds are the produce (fruits).

    James 2:22 "You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did."

    Faith brings salvtion, and in turns produces good deeds, which are credited as righteousness.

    Salvation is totally given as a free gift because of God's grace. In the OT, the Israelites were God's people simply because of God's grace. The OT demonstrates how no one, no one, can reach God's given standard, emphasising that we're saved not because of how much we labour, but because we accept and believe in Him. Jesus too, supported this, for no one could come to God through work alone, but through faith.
     
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Please see that James was talking in the context of contrasting dead faith with real faith, which has works. If your faith is genuine, there will be works. This does not mean that we are saved by works, but for works.

    So when James says that we are not saved by faith alone but by works also, it is in the context of real faith that will have works to show for.

    If you believe that works is needed to add to salvation, then please list the things we need to do lest we all end up in hell becos of insufficient works. What have you done so far? :)
     
  6. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    So you are saying that something written in the New Testament applied to the early Christians but not to us? What basis do you have for that claim?
     
  7. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Why should I list them? Jesus already has, it is all in your Bible. "Feed the hungry, cloth the naked, care for the ill, etc"

    You can mock me with sarcasm, but you can't mock Jesus:

    "Why do you call me Lord but not do what I tell you to do?"

    "Not everyone that calls me Lord will enter Heaven, only those that do the will of my Father"

    Actually, we are saved by Grace which gives rise to the faith/works combo when we cooperate with it, and the faith/works can't be separated, which is why I question the rallying cry of "Faith Alone."

    Can you not see that it is unBiblical?
     
  8. Kirisutokyoo-shinja

    Kirisutokyoo-shinja Stage Ninja

    +87
    Christian
    Single
    What we "want" to see the bible say and what we manipulate it to say in our minds because how we inadvertently try to justify ourselves is not at all relevent.  If the bible says "do works" then for the glory of God do works without complaint or question.  Here we are speaking of "faith", we have faith in the word do we not?  Well then do what it says.  Also many inferences people make are of their own judgement and analysis and many times, because of fleshly interference, the truth is distorted and turned.  This is why we must strive to attain understanding of the word through the Holy Ghost.  The things that are said may reveal to us new revelations each time it is reviewed.  Ask the spirit, and God is not the authur of confusion.  If everyone recieved knowledge of the word through the spirit, the doctrinal views and understandings will only compliment one another, not clash with one another.
    Mah 1 1/2 cent.
    Glory to the king of Hope.  Be careful...we are the hope of Glory.
     
  9. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

    +76
    Non-Denom
    I'd like everyone to post in such a way as to remembering that there are unbelievers and new believers viewing these threads for consideration or condemnation.

    However you post is going to decide which of these two options they choose.

    This post is in no way referring to the above posters remarks. :) Thanks.
     
  10. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "Is there something I am missing here?"

    Yup, ya missed chapter one ;) Remember James is talking to christians who did nothing at all, he is telling them that a christian live is one lived out helping others, not something to sit back on. It is a pragmatic book. We are left with no question in the NT and OT that works cannot and will not help us before God, only faith in Christ will, for it is by his works we are saved, not our own.
     
  11. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

    +155
    Christian
    Single
    Andrew seems to be the one I agree with most on this. James is not saying that you must have both faith in God, and righteous works to get into heaven: as 2 separate things. HOWEVER, he is defining what faith is. This saving faith creates works: in other words "it changes your life." If your faith doesn't change you, what good is it?

    I believe that many people often use this verse to burden everyone down with a long list of rules of "do this... don't do that." We've been free from that. Read Acts 15.
     
  12. hugoguttman

    hugoguttman Member

    202
    +1
    Non-Denom
    Works is a result of our faith. Abraham had faith and so He demonstrated in an act that blessed us. Do you think that those who says Lord, Lord and dont make what is the will of God have faith?
    How could anybody say I have faith in God and continue living under the flesh?
    But, remember that FAITH is a gift of God. Nobody has faith so easily. It´s a work of Jesus Christ on our heart.
    Pax.
    Hugo.
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian


    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means that God did not give us the gift of faith based upon our prior works, for "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). But once we have received the gift of faith it must be accompanied by works, for "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17); "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24). 

     
     
  14. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    I agree with Andrew and SB.

    If you truely believed there would be changes in you. But if you try to keep your faith throught good works you are falling into that same trap of earning your way to heaven. Or lossing your salvation by a way in which you never earned it.

    If you didn't do good works when you got saved, and Jesus excepted you when you were a heathen sinner. Then how could you lose your salvation if you never earned it in the first place?Do you have a certian time to stop sinning entirely? If not, and the case is you have to try then how much do you have to try?

    I like this one scripture where it says something like "and this is the confidence that we have, that whatever we ask for in Jesus name, He gives to us according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus" Or something like that I could be wrong.
     
  15. geocajun

    geocajun Priest of the holy smackrament

    +1,610
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    We are saved by grace, through faith, working in Love.

    "By Grace, Through Faith..."
    "working in Love"
     
  16. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Luke 17:7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending
    sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field,
    'Come at once and sit down to eat'?
    8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for
    my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten
    and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'?
    9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that
    were commanded him? I think not.
    10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things
    which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable
    servants. We have done what was our duty to do.
    ' "

    2 Timothy 2:5 And also if anyone competes in athletics,
    he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

    Acts 10:35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.

    Hebrews 5:9 and having been made perfect, he became
    unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;

    Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the
    small, standing before the throne; and books were opened:
    and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and
    the dead were judged out of the things which were written in
    the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    souljah,

    I notice from your posts in other threads that you are firmly against eternal security. ie you dont believe in the assurance of salvation.

    Perhaps this explains your need to prove also that the Christian has to work for his salvation lest he end up in hell.

    perhaps also you have given up a lot and accomplished a lot for God to maintain or work for your salvation. hence, you get upset when others, who are not living up to your standards, say that they are saved forever.

    you have fallen from grace becos you are now trusting in works to save you. it is your own righteousness.

    rest from your works my friend. Jesus has done it all. enter into that rest and cease from your works to gain salvation.

    In heaven it is Worthy is the Lamb, not worthy is the Lamb and Souljah's accomplishments. :)
     
  18. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    You assume a lot about me and my self-righteousness. I hope you are right for your sake, because you will be judged by the measures that you make.

    Yes, you WILL be judged. Your actions DO matter.

    Faith alone is not biblical, sorry.

    I trust in Jesus alone, not myself. I am saved by grace through faith working in love.
     
  19. hugoguttman

    hugoguttman Member

    202
    +1
    Non-Denom
    Yes, you are completely right. You MUST backup your FAITH with works. But not you, Jesus Christ on you, will. That´s why somebody said that Faith without works is dead. Now, this question is very deep in meaning. Some guy asked Jesus: How can I get into the Kingdom? He said, DO THE LAW WORKS... Yes I have done them since my childhood. ONLY ONE THING IS MISSING... If you want to be PERFECT... sell everything you want, quit to yourself and FOLLOW ME. But that guy was very rich... And Jesus said to His disciples... It´s very hard rich people get into the Kingdom...even though that guy made works every day in his life... so? The works really matter?
    Pax.
    Hugo.
     
  20. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Yep, they do. Jesus also said if you fail to feed the hungry, care for the sick, visit the prisoners, etc, then you failed to love Him and would not enter Heaven.

    The works really matter?
     
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