Fait - where does it come from?

[heterodoxical]

Why would you deliberately be so insulting?

what was the insult?

 

[His]

Well anyway................Shall we return to the subject at hand?

That's probably a good idea

 

[dannybias46]

Faith....

Assent - Acceptance of objective testimony; a judgment of the mind regarding the truth of a statement. it is believing THAT something is true..Matt. 16:16..Romans 10:9,10.
Trust - Confidence in the conclusions drawn from intellectual assent to truth; a decision of the will. it is believing IN someone or something. it is the commitment of self to a person or an idea. Trust involves us existentially Hebrews 11:7

Faith is THE basic condition for the reception of the benefits of the works of Christ, and it is the source from which all other Christian attitudes and works spring..Hebrews 11:6
A biblical illustration of faith; Abraham Hebrews 11:17-19...Romans 4:17-25
Abraham's faith is the pattern for ours.

 

[heterodoxical]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected (NASB)


If you "believe" and don't act, it's not faith.

 

[oworm]

If I have offended you heterodoxical I am truly sorry. It was never my intent to offend nor did I conspire to insult even if it looked that way from your perspective. Just another example that confirms the adage that internet debates usually generate more heat than light.

 

[oworm]

And abe's faith was defined by his works. Without the work, no one would proclaim he had the faith.

I would say that works are an evidence of faith but do not define it. Hebrews 11:1 provides a definition of faith as assurance and conviction which are attitudes of the mind and not works. The chapter goes on to talk of various works which were an evidence of faith.

I think that's James' point

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works

 

[heterodoxical]

If I have offended you heterodoxical I am truly sorry. It was never my intent to offend nor did I conspire to insult even if it looked that way from your perspective. Just another example that confirms the adage that internet debates usually generate more heat than light.

You can offend someone and it not be personal on your part. (these are the ones that slap you in the face, usually.)

You can set out and "name call" just to offend.

I don't think/believe/have faith (rofl) that you meant to.

I tried to point it out so we could roll it over and be gone with it. You delivered an appeal to authority to me. A cheap example of appeal to authority, " I know you just made some arguments, that may or may not make sense, but I have education/title/position/degree/etc.. that you don't have, and what I say is the truth.

Now, I know you didn't say it that way, I'm breaking it down with a bit of hyperbole. But that is the essential outline of what happened to me.

I hope you can see where that can be offensive? I blow those things off mostly. I think matt 18 demands I point it out, for both sides benefits. If I'm wrong I learn, if you were wrong you learn. Seems you can't lose.

I have no beef with you. See my name??? I know I'm going to be on the other side of the chat in several conversations. I just try to find a group to discuss with, that will deal with the arguments and not take potshots that I don't think like they do. That is hard to do.

peace.

 

[heterodoxical]

We agree on the point of James. The Church today is so cliche with the scream, "you can't be saved by works", that they forget they are saved to do good works. So anytime it pops up, I push it way the works way to get some balance. At least it makes people think.

Let me ask you, could you have faith without works?

Until that belief is acted on, it's not works.

Just like until the feelings are acted on, it's not agapao.

Now from your explanations I know you get it. But most reading this, let me tell you, will see works and scream. So .....

I would say that works are an evidence of faith but do not define it. Hebrews 11:1 provides a definition of faith as assurance and conviction which are attitudes of the mind and not works. The chapter goes on to talk of various works which were an evidence of faith.

I think that's James' point

 

[oworm]

You delivered an appeal to authority to me. A cheap example of appeal to authority, " I know you just made some arguments, that may or may not make sense, but I have education/title/position/degree/etc.. that you don't have, and what I say is the truth.

I wasn't implying that you were uneducated by comparison nor was I being elitist. I was responding to your statement that I had used a online lexicon with no knowledge of how to use one. I reacted to that and shouldn't have.

like I said. I apologize for offending you. That was never my intent nor did I mean to belittle you.

 

[oworm]

Let me ask you, could you have faith without works?

No.

Until that belief is acted on, it's not works.

you mean until belief is acted on its not faith right?

Now from your explanations I know you get it. But most reading this, let me tell you, will see works and scream. So .....

works are imperative in scripture. But the imperatives are always grounded in the indicatives. Something has happened to me (indicative) therefore something has been changed in me and the evidence of that is worked out (imperative).

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out (imperative) your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you , both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[heymikey80]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected (NASB)

If you "believe" and don't act, it's not faith.

Faith shows in works, but in practical terms only given time, growth, and the Spirit doing as He decides to do.

4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5

It's not their actions that save people, it's through faith.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10

Good works are a goal prepared for us. Works don't save.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. We look to Christ, the author, and finisher of our faith, being confident that He who began this good work in us, will complete it until His coming.

 

[heterodoxical]

I wasn't implying that you were uneducated by comparison nor was I being elitist. I was responding to your statement that I had used a online lexicon with no knowledge of how to use one. I reacted to that and shouldn't have.

like I said. I apologize for offending you. That was never my intent nor did I mean to belittle you.

sheesh. the whole thing would have been handled in person and been funny probably.

I never felt you intended.

My comment was a bit smart a$$, but the thought behind it was honest, I didn't feel it addressed the other arguments. I was just pushing to forward the chat.

But, I still have silver scholar logos. neener neener.

 

[heterodoxical]

Faith shows in works, but in practical terms only given time, growth, and the Spirit doing as He decides to do.

Agreed mostly, but that doesn't change my position. If you didn't have any works, could you have faith? I'm not arguing works salvation, although they are tied too, but differently.

It's not their actions that save people, it's through faith.

We weren't talking salvation we were talking works and faith. James showed Abe's work justified his faith. Thus if abe didn't walk up the mountain, he wouldn't have faith. Salvation isn't there.

However now that it's inserted,
If salvation is by grace through faith, not works so no man can boast, and faith without works is dead, then if you don't have the works, (see sheep goats matt 25) you can't have the faith, without faith you can not obtain grace, thus you should check your claim to salvation and your walk.
This does not say works will save you.

Good works are a goal prepared for us. Works don't save.

Again, this isn't a chat about saving you. Works won't save you. If you don't have the works you may not be saved though.

You were saved for works.
We are his instruments of righteousness to do his works.
Theology isn't important but faith expressing/working itself through love.

You can't claim to AGAPAO your neighbor if there are no works, that would be oxymoronic.

 

[heterodoxical]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. We look to Christ, the author, and finisher of our faith, being confident that He who began this good work in us, will complete it until His coming.

what does this mean?

faith is hope you heard about from Christ? Scripture isn't consistent on that for it to be the total of the word.

And your last sentence, I dare you to put that verse with eph 4:10-17 on what is to be finished.

 

[oworm]

sheesh. the whole thing would have been handled in person and been funny probably.

If we had been face to face none of this would have happened. There's something about sitting in front of a keyboard and sitting behind the wheel of a vehicle that changes human character into something it would never be in normal interpersonal interaction. Unless of course you happen to be a soldier!

But, I still have silver scholar logos. neener neener.

I have Bibleworks 7 which is better for original languages.

 

[heterodoxical]

If we had been face to face none of this would have happened. There's something about sitting in front of a keyboard and sitting behind the wheel of a vehicle that changes human character into something it would never be in normal interpersonal interaction. Unless of course you happen to be a soldier!


I have Bibleworks 7 which is better for original languages.

well, I would have said the same things, but they would have been taken as intended, avoiding most of this.

and, aren't you special.

 

[heymikey80]

Agreed mostly, but that doesn't change my position. If you didn't have any works, could you have faith? I'm not arguing works salvation, although they are tied too, but differently.

mkay. This is in Soteriology.

We weren't talking salvation we were talking works and faith. James showed Abe's work justified his faith. Thus if abe didn't walk up the mountain, he wouldn't have faith. Salvation isn't there.

As far as what's stated, James said Abe's work showed he was justified by faith.

What's he justified for?

From Paul, Abe was justified long before his walk up the mountain.

However now that it's inserted,
If salvation is by grace through faith, not works so no man can boast, and faith without works is dead, then if you don't have the works, (see sheep goats matt 25) you can't have the faith, without faith you can not obtain grace, thus you should check your claim to salvation and your walk.
This does not say works will save you.

In Mt 25 both groups had works, and faith isn't mentioned.

Again, this isn't a chat about saving you. Works won't save you. If you don't have the works you may not be saved though.

You were saved for works.
We are his instruments of righteousness to do his works.

Agreed, mostly, but that doesn't change my position.

Theology isn't important but faith expressing/working itself through love.

You can't claim to AGAPAO your neighbor if there are no works, that would be oxymoronic.

Agreed, mostly, but that doesn't change my position.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

what does this mean?

Exactly what it says.

faith is hope you heard about from Christ?

Not what it says.

Scripture isn't consistent on that for it to be the total of the word.

Therein is the root of the problem, you have this idea in your head that Scripture isn't consistent. Why do you hold that belief? Where did you learn such a notion? What is it based on? "Total of the word"? Sounds like a loaded phrase to me, especially since no such claim was made.

And your last sentence, I dare you to put that verse with eph 4:10-17 on what is to be finished.

Works without faith are dead. There is a world of difference between regeneration and sanctification. I double dare you to disagree.

 

[Mr Dave]

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