Fairytale?

[Loudmouth]

Firstly I don't believe that God is nothing and secondly I don't think the word magic is appropriate when talking about an omniscient, omnipotent being.

Then demonstrate how it is different.

 

[TheOutsider]

Or you don't have any.Firstly I don't believe that God is nothing and secondly I don't think the word magic is appropriate when talking about an omniscient, omnipotent being.

FoeHammer.

If you don't believe in "something from nothing" then how did God create all of mass/energy in the universe? How did it go from God and nothing else to stars, planets, trees, animals, water, humans, etc?

 

[Inan3]

Well that doesn't define my faith as I have the universe as proof of Gods existence.I have made no error.
Faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
Confidence/trust, that’s what I have in God, I have faith in His ability; it is no more complicated than that. You have confidence/trust in scientists; you have faith in their abilities.

FoeHammer.

Right On!

 

[Baggins]

Right On!

I suppose you don't have faith in the abilities of scientists; despite the fact that you typed that into a computer so it could be read and ridiculed by people all over the world.

 

[Inan3]

If you don't believe in "something from nothing" then how did God create all of mass/energy in the universe? How did it go from God and nothing else to stars, planets, trees, animals, water, humans, etc?

By the power of His Word!

Nothing equals nothing! Nothing comes from nothing!

BUT...

We're not talking nothing.

In the beginning God.....

Something/Someone #1. God the Father - He exists - Before all else He was, is and will be! All things were created for and by Him.


Rom 11:36 For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Something/Someone #2. God the Holy Spirit - Power - Energy - The Spirit moved upon the face of the waters


Job 26:13 By His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens;

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


Something/Someone #3. God the Word - And God said...



Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Your question..."How did it go from God and nothing else to stars, planets, trees, animals, water, humans, etc?

The answer...God created the "things which are seen BY things which do not appear" in otherwords by invisible things.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Inan3]

I suppose you don't have faith in the abilities of scientists; despite the fact that you typed that into a computer so it could be read and ridiculed by people all over the world.

That's not what FH or I was saying. He was just saying that faith is just having "confidence in" someone of something. This is not a "dis" on scientists OR science. Let me repeat myself for all the people all over the world that may have ridiculed my post. You really didn't have a reason to ridicule my post because I am definitely NOT saying that I don't have confidence in the abilities of scientists.

BUT....

This is another example of one of my posts again being misread. Did you really think that is what we were saying?

 

[Inan3]

If we don't agree then it isn't common sense.

Interesting point.

 

[Inan3]

Odd -- I'd consider "magic" to be the only appropriate word when dealing with omniscient, omnipotent beings.

If you take 2 parts of Hydrogen (a gas) and 1 part oxygen (a gas) and put them together and get water (a liquid) is that magic? Visible from invisible. So are scientists magic when they perform experiments that go from one substance to another? Just because something comes from the invisible does not mean it is magic. God is invisible. So is the wind but both are totally real.

 

[Aron-Ra]

The very next line from the same source you cite defines faith in the religious context;
2. belief that is not based on proof:

Well that doesn't define my faith as I have the universe as proof of Gods existence.

We both have a universe to explain. Either it was created by magic, or there is a scientific explanation. Simply ignoring everything known to man and assuming your own conclusions just cuz you wanna -ain't good enough.

I have tried to explain the shortcomings of using erroneous common useage when another more accurate context specifically applies. But since that doesn't suit your deceptive purpose, you will never correct your error.

I have made no error.

You've only ever made one statement that wasn't in error.

Faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Yes, even if we ignore every other source as well as most of your own source, we still see that faith is confidence, trust, or belief - that is not based on proof.

Confidence/trust, that’s what I have in God, I have faith in His ability; it is no more complicated than that. You have confidence/trust in scientists; you have faith in their abilities.

No I don't. Because, unlike you, I question authority.

 

[Aron-Ra]

There is no way to determine that and demonstrate it for anyone else.

It being common sense means that I don’t have to demonstrate anything of the sort to anyone with any common sense and for those who have none it would be pointless to even try.

Of course I would argue that you don't have common sense either. But technically, if it isn't shared, then by definition it can't be "common" either.

You need something objective or your claims will be indefensible.

I think Common sense is probably the nearest anyone can get to objective. Other than that you have personal subjective perception and interpretation.

That's exactly why "common sense" doesn't work; it requires me to embrace the same fallacies you do. Instead, objectivity requires evidence. But you don't have any of that either.

Where have I admitted that I believe that everything came from nothing and that it happened by magic?

In your next sentence.

Where do you believe all matter in the universe came from then?

Goddidit.

And you've stated earlier that you believe he did exactly as the Bible says, and the Bible says he used golems and incantations; spell-casting.

If you don't believe God "spoke" the universe into existence, then how do you think it happened?

I believe God commanded it and it was so.

And how does that work?

Hey, you're the one who claims to believe in things which you also believe to be impossible.

Where have I made this claim?

In your opening statement in post #675.

Actually you yourself said that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that is what you've always said you believe actually happened. If you've changed your mind about that, please explain what it is you believe now.

Where have I said that I believe that something came from nothing?

I highlighted it for you in bold pink.

I didn't say 'abiogenesis'. And why would I, since that's not "something from nothing" in anyone's perspective? The example I was talking about was big bang cosmology. My prediction was accurate.

In which post did you make this prediction? I’ve looked but can’t find it.

You don't pay attention, do you? You included the entire reference in post # 675. Look for the link to BBC news. You rambled on about natural selection instead, as if you never even read what you were replying to. Now I know that you didn't bother to read it after all. That's probably why you can't find it now.

I do think it is impossible to live without science. It is possible to live without faith however.

What do you mean by science in this instance?

Scientific principles and rational methodology.

It means it wasn't "chance".

Then what was it?

"Chance" implies randomness. Natural selection is deterministic.

I don't have faith, and don't need it.

Yes you do and yes you do. As soon as you accept anything that you are unable to demonstrate to be true you have in fact demonstrated a need for, and that you have, faith. The un-proven and un-provable uniformitarian assumption, that the present is the key to the past, An arbitrary categorization of life, fossils in general and fossils which “look” intermediate in particular and variation within kinds that you believe produced different kinds.

None of this denotes faith because my "belief" in them is tentative and structured to be queried and scrutinized however can be. Faith is an unquestioned assumption which is embraced without reservation. I make very few assumptions, all of them with reservations, and I continually question them all objectively.

Science is an abundantly productive process with a long history of profound success

Incredible isn’t it when you stop to consider that you believe our thoughts are merely the result of random chemical reactions.

Yes isn't it? That realization has certainly been remarked upon. In fact, Dr. Francis Crick, who won the Nobel prize for Physiology and Medicine with his discovery of DNA, wrote in his final book,

"You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cell and their associated molecules."​

--The Astonishing Hypothesis; the Scientific Search for the Soul.​

-while religion tends to be absolutely wrong about absolutely everything all the time,

Absolutely, absolutely?

Yes definitely. Were it not so, then you would be able to provide for me at least one claim of posative evidence for creationism which was verifiably accurate and/or a single credible proponant of evangelical creationism who ever published anti-evolutionary rhetoric to any medium but who did not have a prior religious agenda, who didn't reveal inexcusable ignorance in the very fields where they claim expertise, and who's arguments didn't depend on erroneous assumptions, prejudicial bias, logical fallacies, ridiculous parody, misdefined terms, misquoted authorities, distorted data, fraudulent figures, or out-and-out lies. Otherwise, my initial estimate remains true; that there are only two types of arguments for creationism; those which can never be either vindicated or disproved, and those which have already been disproved many times over, both scientifically and in a court of law.

and even admit they will lie to promote what they "just gotta believe" no matter what.

References, examples?

Oh ye of little faith. How about when Lisa0315 said she would find some way to keep believing even if she had proof she was wrong? How about when the founder of Protestant Christianity wrote the following:

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."​

--Reverend Martin Luther​

So what choice do I have?

Jesus Christ or not.

Oh well that makes it easy then. The only choice I can make is "not".

Perhaps what you have is more "common" than it is "sense" because you do still believe that everything magically came from nothing, do you not?

No I do not. How many times have I got to tell you before it sinks in?

Just once should do -if you can back up your assertion somehow, and explain where you believe everything came from if not from "nothing".

Meaning that everything came from nothing as a result of a magic invisible man chanting an incantation spell.

Wrong! Again.

But earlier in this very post, you said "God commanded it and it was so", remember?

 

[Aron-Ra]

The universe created itself from nothing.

Show me a citation from someone who proposes that one.

Why do you need a citation?

Because you're making another strawman.

Once you have eliminated God as creator and the universe having always existed then what have you left?

Well, I never eliminated God as a creator. I only eliminated the anti-science claims of creationism. But if there is no God, nor any other potential catalysts or better versions of deities than the silly one you propose, then I still have The fourth option I already explained in the closing comments of post # 678.

I will go with a fourth option; all mass, energy, space itself, and even time -erupted into this dimension from a quantum singularity, which may have been caused by rift in the space/time continuum.

Your fourth choice doesn’t even begin to answer the fundamental question it just pushes it back. Where did the “quantum singularity” come from? If there was no space where did it exist

Another dimension, (according to string theory).

if there was no time when did it exist?

Imagine you're watching a movie. You can pause it wherever you like, or even rewind it. You reference of time doesn't even relate to that within the sequence of the film. That's sort of what we're talking about here.

If there was no energy what caused it to expand?

String theorists say it was a rupture caused by the collision of two dimensions. Taoists say it was a conflict between light and dark forces. They're so close, that I would just as easily go with either one for the moment. But I'd still like to see a better option presented.

If there was no mass what expanded?

It was energy first. Energy can be converted into matter and vice versa.

If the universe is all there is what is it expanding into.

Even the ancient Hindus believed in more than one universe. In fact, Lord Krishna claimed to have created a multiverse. String theorists hold to a similar notion.

Although I would happily entertain any other explanation which has both evidenciary support and explanatary power at least equivilent to current cosmology.

Yes you rely on the “expertise” and explanations of others yet insist that you have no faith in anything… LOL

Yeah, LOL. Because if I had faith in them, I obviously wouldn't be asking someone to come up with a better explanation, would I?

I didn't like being proven wrong. So I try to minimize the number of times that happens. You don't apparently don't mind it so much, because you still parrot the same nonsense even after you know its been disproved.

The only way you could avoid being wrong as far as I am concerned would be to stop replying to my posts because you are constantly wrong

Yet I keep proving my point, and you won't/can't. All your arguments can be reduced to you being right only cuz you say so -while I have to provide proof of my position, and you automatically reject that too, again, only because you say so.

but that isn’t going to happen is it? You ego won’t allow it.

That's the only thing you've ever said to me that was correct. Now what's your excuse? Because in post # 675, you said you had more important things to do, and all this time, I've been wiping the floor with you.

 

[TheOutsider]

If you take 2 parts of Hydrogen (a gas) and 1 part oxygen (a gas) and put them together and get water (a liquid) is that magic? Visible from invisible. So are scientists magic when they perform experiments that go from one substance to another?

That wouldn't be something from nothing. You started with 3 atoms and ended up with one molecule. All such reactions follow the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy. Mass and energy can never be created or destroyed (but can be converted from one to the other)

Just because something comes from the invisible does not mean it is magic. God is invisible. So is the wind but both are totally real.

The wind can be both seen and measured. God cannot.

 

[Aron-Ra]

If you take 2 parts of Hydrogen (a gas) and 1 part oxygen (a gas) and put them together and get water (a liquid) is that magic? Visible from invisible. So are scientists magic when they perform experiments that go from one substance to another? Just because something comes from the invisible does not mean it is magic. God is invisible. So is the wind but both are totally real.

Except that one can be demonstrated, and the other requires faith to believe it even exists.

Why don't you just look up what magic is?

1. the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b: magic rites or incantations
2 a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b: something that seems to cast a spell
--Merriam Webster

the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.
--Dictionary.com

3. supposed supernatural power: a supposed supernatural power that makes impossible things happen or gives somebody control over the forces of nature. 4. practice of magic: the use of supposed supernatural power to make impossible things happen
--Encarta

So if you're talking about supernatural agencies using miraculous power over nature to make impossible things happen, you're obviously talking about magic.

 

[thaumaturgy]

If you take 2 parts of Hydrogen (a gas) and 1 part oxygen (a gas) and put them together and get water (a liquid) is that magic? Visible from invisible. So are scientists magic when they perform experiments that go from one substance to another? Just because something comes from the invisible does not mean it is magic. God is invisible. So is the wind but both are totally real.

But gases are not "invisible". Pass the right wavelength of light through it and you "see" it.

Some wavelength of light see oxygen as a big blinding brick wall.

Just ask the folks who developed early radar and the problems they had with water vapor.

Now when we're talkin' God, well then, no one has so far found a single band of the electromagnetic spectrum that God is "opaque" to. So, yeah, God is invisible. So invisible many of us have no idea how you know he's there.

 

[Inan3]

Except that one can be demonstrated, and the other requires faith to believe it even exists.

Why don't you just look up what magic is?

1. the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b: magic rites or incantations
2 a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b: something that seems to cast a spell
--Merriam Webster

the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.
--Dictionary.com

3. supposed supernatural power: a supposed supernatural power that makes impossible things happen or gives somebody control over the forces of nature. 4. practice of magic: the use of supposed supernatural power to make impossible things happen
--Encarta

So if you're talking about supernatural agencies using miraculous power over nature to make impossible things happen, you're obviously talking about magic.

Well, I did look up "magic" and I saw a similar definition, except the #1 definition was more like your #3. I had thought of inserting that definition but I had a problem with some of the wording as I do with the above, also. Such as words like "supposed", "purported", "attempt", etc. So I felt it was best, for me anyway, to leave it out. I realize that for some, parts of the definition could fit, especially, because God surely is supernatural. But because the term "magic" in today's world mostly fits with "make believe" or "tricks" or "spells and incantations" I do not believe it is a fitting explanation for the manifestations of God. While there are some similar elements with the supernatural realm of God and paranormal happenings they are not to be seen as the same. God is a Spirit, as we are also, but all of the spiritual world is not necessarily in tune with God and His practices. And often, is contrary to Him an antithesis of the truth.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Well, I did look up "magic" and I saw a similar definition, except the #1 definition was more like your #3. I had thought of inserting that definition but I had a problem with some of the wording as I do with the above, also. Such as words like "supposed", "purported", "attempt", etc. So I felt it was best, for me anyway, to leave it out. I realize that for some, parts of the definition could fit, especially, because God surely is supernatural. But because the term "magic" in today's world mostly fits with "make believe" or "tricks" or "spells and incantations" I do not believe it is a fitting explanation for the manifestations of God. While there are some similar elements with the supernatural realm of God and paranormal happenings they are not to be seen as the same. God is a Spirit, as we are also, but all of the spiritual world is not necessarily in tune with God and His practices. And often, is contrary to Him an antithesis of the truth.

You speak so confidently of all these things, as if you actually know it to be true. But in fact no one even can know these things.

Faith is "make believe" quite literally. just as Lisa0315 said; you need to make yourself believe, to believe hard enough, and remove all doubt from your mind. For some it is an act of sheer will, of "mind over logic" as one pair of Christians explained. Another called it "eating the word", and clarified that it was a conscious act of forcing himself to believe everything the Bible said no matter how illogical reason would say that it is.

That is the greatest failing of faith, and that is why it is inherently dishonest, as dishonest as claiming to "know" anything about God. All we can know is that God is represented differently in each of the supposedly sacred scriptures, be they Muslim or Hindu or Sikh, etc. In your particular scriptures, God is described quite plainly using incantations, and casting a golem spell, and there are other spells in the Bible too, like an enchanted potion in Numbers and a magic wand in Leviticus which is used as part of an elemental spell. And of course, Moses turns his staff into a serpent, and Jesus turns water into wine. I've seen Vegas magicians do both on stage. So yes, the word "magic" very definitely applies in every sense of that word, but much more so when you expand your knowledge of ancient religions to include those written in the periphery of the Bible. So much more is revealed about the nature of evil spirits, demons, and djinni.

 

[Inan3]

But gases are not "invisible". Pass the right wavelength of light through it and you "see" it.

Some wavelength of light see oxygen as a big blinding brick wall.

Just ask the folks who developed early radar and the problems they had with water vapor.

Now when we're talkin' God, well then, no one has so far found a single band of the electromagnetic spectrum that God is "opaque" to. So, yeah, God is invisible. So invisible many of us have no idea how you know he's there.

Good evening (here), TMT.

I certainly was expecting to receive a more scientific explanation of these gases, and you didn't let me down. I found that very interesting.

And while, as you say, "no one has so far found a single band of the electromagnetic spectrum that God is "opaque" to", it doesn't rule out some undefined explanation. Perhaps, the answer is that spirit needs to slow down to be seen in the natural realm or speed up.

Jesus appeared to His disciples when they were assembled and the doors were shut. He didn't come in from the door or window. His new spirit/body just materialized there in their midst. They were able to touch Him and He even ate with them. He appeared in another form to others on the road to Emmaus and then later disappeared.

It's obvious that the spirit realm has been manifested in the natural even today by the witness of many people having actually "seen" angels, spirits, and other unexplained happenings. I don't know the scientific answer. I just know that it is too common to just deny because we don't understand it yet (in the natural, I mean).

 

[Aron-Ra]

Jesus appeared to His disciples when they were assembled and the doors were shut. He didn't come in from the door or window. His new spirit/body just materialized there in their midst. They were able to touch Him and He even ate with them.

Zeus did that a lot too. He could even take on the form of other animals. And Dionysus, his son lived twice. Mythology is really amazing stuff isn't it? OK, not really, but hey, you seem to enjoy it.

 

[Inan3]

You speak so confidently of all these things, as if you actually know it to be true. But in fact no one even can know these things.

Faith is "make believe" quite literally. just as Lisa0315 said; you need to make yourself believe, to believe hard enough, and remove all doubt from your mind. For some it is an act of sheer will, of "mind over logic" as one pair of Christians explained. Another called it "eating the word", and clarified that it was a conscious act of forcing himself to believe everything the Bible said no matter how illogical reason would say that it is.

That is the greatest failing of faith, and that is why it is inherently dishonest, as dishonest as claiming to "know" anything about God. All we can know is that God is represented differently in each of the supposedly sacred scriptures, be they Muslim or Hindu or Sikh, etc. In your particular scriptures, God is described quite plainly using incantations, and casting a golem spell, and there are other spells in the Bible too, like an enchanted potion in Numbers and a magic wand in Leviticus which is used as part of an elemental spell. And of course, Moses turns his staff into a serpent, and Jesus turns water into wine. I've seen Vegas magicians do both on stage. So yes, the word "magic" very definitely applies in every sense of that word, but much more so when you expand your knowledge of ancient religions to include those written in the periphery of the Bible. So much more is revealed about the nature of evil spirits, demons, and djinni.

There is a knowing that is beyond man's intellect. It is in the spirit. He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith. Our spirit is where God communicates with and to us. That is why we must be born again in our spirits so that He can make known to us His thoughts and ways, the deep things of God and all that He has prepared for us. We are triune beings....spirit, soul and body. We are a spirit. We have a soul and we live in a body.

Without getting into which "faith" is right or wrong. The fact that there are so many different faiths or religions is an indication that there is a higher power. Man has an inherent desire to worship and communicate with his Creator. It's like a void that cannot be hushed or filled. All over the world, in different civilizations and cultures, people are worshipping someone or something. It's innate within mankind regardless of your location. Man needs and desires God.

Contrary to your description above of believers, "you need to make yourself believe, to believe hard enough, and remove all doubt from your mind. For some it is an act of sheer will, of "mind over logic" , one actually has to do that to NOT believe in God. To me it denies logic to not believe in God. I don't have to make myself believe, I would have to deny all that is within me to NOT believe. When I step outside, I see God. Maybe "some" have to use sheer will to "believe" but it is just the opposite for me. I have never had a hard time to believe in God. I have not always understood things but when I asked understanding came. I will admit I make a conscious act to "eat" God's word but not as a "chore". I love God's word and I marvel every time I read it. It never ceases to feed me. It fills me up. I am sorry that others have had difficulty with it. I can only suppose why, I don't know. I do know it's NOT that way with me. I enjoy God and His word. I never tire of it.

My best to you this evening. I'm ending it for tonight. Another time. My bed is calling me.

 

[Aron-Ra]

There is a knowing that is beyond man's intellect. It is in the spirit. He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith. Our spirit is where God communicates with and to us. That is why we must be born again in our spirits so that He can make known to us His thoughts and ways, the deep things of God and all that He has prepared for us. We are triune beings....spirit, soul and body. We are a spirit. We have a soul and we live in a body.

Without getting into which "faith" is right or wrong. The fact that there are so many different faiths or religions is an indication that there is a higher power. Man has an inherent desire to worship and communicate with his Creator. It's like a void that cannot be hushed or filled. All over the world, in different civilizations and cultures, people are worshipping someone or something. It's innate within mankind regardless of your location. Man needs and desires God.

Contrary to your description above of believers, "you need to make yourself believe, to believe hard enough, and remove all doubt from your mind. For some it is an act of sheer will, of "mind over logic" , one actually has to do that to NOT believe in God. To me it denies logic to not believe in God. I don't have to make myself believe, I would have to deny all that is within me to NOT believe. When I step outside, I see God. Maybe "some" have to use sheer will to "believe" but it is just the opposite for me. I have never had a hard time to believe in God. I have not always understood things but when I asked understanding came. I will admit I make a conscious act to "eat" God's word but not as a "chore". I love God's word and I marvel every time I read it. It never ceases to feed me. It fills me up. I am sorry that others have had difficulty with it. I can only suppose why, I don't know. I do know it's NOT that way with me. I enjoy God and His word. I never tire of it.

My best to you this evening. I'm ending it for tonight. Another time. My bed is calling me.

I have no such "void". When I realized God wasn't likely even real, it came as a great relief because life, truth, and justice, were all rendered literally meaningless if the Bible god were really real. A decade or so later, when I realized that nothing else 'supernatural" existed either, it was an even bigger relief, because I couldn't make sense of the universe with all that mystical supernatural nonsense in it. It was disappointing at first, letting go of the only religious belief I ever adored. I certainly didn't like realizing that my whole once-eternal existence was so close to an end either. But dispensing with that was like wiping the fog from the windshield. It defies logic to believe in anything without reservation, but much more so impossible things with so much against them and nothing to back it up.

But if you carry nothing else away from this discussion, it should be this. There can not be "knowing that is beyond intellect". Because knowledge must be testable if it is to be called knowledge at all. If you can't show it, then you don't know it. If it is "beyond intellect" then it is only a belief - or a delusion.