Fairytale?

[Split Rock]

From microbes to men is not without reasonable doubt. If it were then it would be absolutely true but, by your own admission (below), you, as a fallible human, cannot know that it is... do try to be consistent.

I am being consistent... that is why I used the term reasonable doubt rather than absolutely true.

That life originated somehow and, via a process of billions upon billions upon who knows how many mistakes, produced man in all his complexities is a ridiculous notion. Combine that with the pathetic attempts by some to explain how it happened and you are right (for once), I do dismiss it.

You forgot natural selection. And most mutations are indeed due to a copying mistake. Your dismissal is hardly based on any "pathetic" attempts to explain this to you.

No-one, I can't be fooled and you already have been.

Yet another example of your arrogance. I thought only God could not be fooled?

There’s a difference between the absolute truth of a matter and the absolute truth.

Whatever that means!

I pretend nothing of the sort, in fact it is because I do understand English that you cannot win this argument.

No, I cannot convince you because of your blind faith in Creationist dogma.

Tentative = uncertain. So you are uncertain of evolution? The best explanation would be a matter of opinion and it is one that I don’t share.

The best scientific explanation is not based on "opinion," it is based on the consensus of the scientific community.

That would be blind faith

OK.

Omniscience and between the two you have plain old faith.

So, in your vocabulary there is either omniscience (which non of us have) or "faith?" Yet, you continue to claim you are using the English language? No wonder we cannot understand each other!

What is and doesn’t change.

OK. But how do we determine this?

It is the arrogance of a creationist, I don’t claim to speak for them all. (You do realise that I can be both arrogant and right don’t you?)

Well, yes, it is the arrogance of a creationist, but it seems to be a characteristic among creationists in general. Though, I will admit there certainly are exceptions. Yes, you could be both arrogant and right, but in this case you are just arrogant.

Idiot.

Nice comeback... and so very Christian of you!

Belief and faith are for those who may not share that belief and faith, I know is for myself and those who do share that belief and faith and who also know. The meanings have not been twisted and I am not confused.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

[Nathan Poe]

From microbes to men is not without reasonable doubt. If it were then it would be absolutely true but, by your own admission (below), you, as a fallible human, cannot know that it is... do try to be consistent.

At least he's not trying to conflate "Beyond a reasonable doubt" with "absolutely true."

Do try to be consistent.

That life originated somehow and, via a process of billions upon billions upon who knows how many mistakes, produced man in all his complexities is a ridiculous notion.

Which part do you consider ridiculous? Life originating somehow, or man existing?

 

[Inan3]

Why did you highlight my use of 'verifiably' in blue?

Of all that you said, I find this the only question that I will answer, for all else is a merri-go-round of disagreeing views. You don't believe me I don't believe you. There is no sense in my trying to answer any of your challenges because you will just say that it is wrong (no matter what I produced) you have your mind made up and I have mine made up. You have not given me anything that would change my mind and vice versa. You think you have been where I am but you have not. Therefore I see no point of continuing this discourse. I will apologize because I think "perhaps" that I involved myself in a conversation you were having with another individual first.

The answer to the above question is I think I inadvertantly did it when I was putting color to my font. I remember seeing it and wondering if I had done it or you had done it. I left it that way in case it was the latter.

 

[Inan3]

I am being consistent... that is why I used the term reasonable doubt rather than absolutely true.

You forgot natural selection. And most mutations are indeed due to a copying mistake. Your dismissal is hardly based on any "pathetic" attempts to explain this to you.

Yet another example of your arrogance. I thought only God could not be fooled?

Whatever that means!

No, I cannot convince you because of your blind faith in Creationist dogma.

The best scientific explanation is not based on "opinion," it is based on the consensus of the scientific community.

OK.

So, in your vocabulary there is either omniscience (which non of us have) or "faith?" Yet, you continue to claim you are using the English language? No wonder we cannot understand each other!

OK. But how do we determine this?

Well, yes, it is the arrogance of a creationist, but it seems to be a characteristic among creationists in general. Though, I will admit there certainly are exceptions. Yes, you could be both arrogant and right, but in this case you are just arrogant.

Nice comeback... and so very Christian of you!

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here.

You know Split Rock, I hope you do not compare yourself with some of the other EVO posters here who at least add substance to the conversations. Even consol, whether right or wrong, has more to offer than you do, at least it has some color. You are nothing more than a wanna be evolutionist heckler. The least you could do is copy and paste something worth posting.

 

[Inan3]

Argument from incredulity. They (the authors) can't see the difference between comparative DNA analysis, and complete genome sequencing.

They also think misunderstand why the percentage similarity in Chimp & Human DNA (which is, by the way, an undeniable 98%) is used as evidence for our common ancestry. It is evidence preciesly because it is predicted by the theory of that humans and chimps share an ancestor: if the theory is true, we'd expect to see very similar DNA. We do, so therefore we have evidence that it is true.

You won't see what you refuse to see.

 

[Split Rock]

You know Split Rock, I hope you do not compare yourself with some of the other EVO posters here who at least add substance to the conversations. Even consol, whether right or wrong, has more to offer than you do, at least it has some color. You are nothing more than a wanna be evolutionist heckler. The least you could do is copy and paste something worth posting.

What have you added of substance?
Name-calling?
Mud-slinging?
Baseless assertions?

Do you have anything to add to the basic issue plaguing FoeHammer and Aron-Ra's interchanges... which is what we mean by term "faith?"

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You won't see what you refuse to see.

The hypocrasy is making me weep.
You don't want to see evidence for the predicted similarities between human & chimp DNA, so, as per your logic, you don't. Is it any wonder you're a Creationist when you freely dismiss evidence left, right, and center?

 

[Inan3]

The hypocrasy is making me weep.
You don't want to see evidence for the predicted similarities between human & chimp DNA, so, as per your logic, you don't. Is it any wonder you're a Creationist when you freely dismiss evidence left, right, and center?

Well then we shall weep together.

 

[Nathan Poe]

You won't see what you refuse to see.

And what is it we're supposed to see? The Emperor's new clothes?

 

[Split Rock]

No, just pointing out your hypocrisy. It was easier to make that point by using the point already made.

Really? What "hypocrisy" was that? Did I falsely accuse someone of lying?

Information that is not information but just a lot of rhetoric will certainly not get me to change my mind.

I guess genetic sequencing consists of "rhetoric" in your dictionary.

Well, I hate to break your ego balloon but he seems to have a lot more credible information than you do.

Why? Because he agrees with you?

 

[Inan3]

There is a lot of bitterness on this thread. But its all yours. I have nothing to be bitter about. As far as I'm concerned, I'm trying to help you. And if I could get through to you, I know from past experience how your mind will awaken and that you will thank me for it later. I think you are afraid to answer my question, and that's why you still haven't yet.

You rave with disturbing lunacy wild ranting nonsense which cannot be justified. I find it disorienting as any sensible person would when surrounded by sycophants suffering from Orwellian dementia; "rationalism is irrational", "faith is reason", "intelligence is stupid", "gullability is wisdom", and "assuming your own subjective emotional conclusions for no reason counts as evidence".

Its all madness. Sanity is often defined as being rational, to be able to reason logically and to be reasoned with. But faith is irrational, illogical, unreasonable, and insane by definition.

We both know why you can't. Its because we both know that the creationism movement is based entirely on falsehoods and deliberately dishonest propaganda. None of you cares for the truth if it is not what you wish it to be. That's why there has never been a single credible proponent of evangelical creationism anywhere ever.

I really can't continue trying to reason with someone who believes the voices in her head belong to demons and shadow spirits, and who can only vainly attempt to project her own faults onto those who have already rid ourselves of them, and will not bare them again.

Is this how you would "awaken" me by insulting me? and if so "awaken" me to what? What do you offer? That I am made of monkeys? The thrill of going around and proving that there is no God? That my life has been a joke? That everything just happened one day...out of nothing? That there is no purpose in my life higher than what this world offers? That my only hopes are scientific evidence that change continually? The belief that scientists are all wonderful kind and selfless individuals who would never present their data to get the funding which they need to keep going? The right to attack, make fun of, malign and hate God Who has never done anything to me but encourage, promote, increase, and teach me a better way of life? To fit in with all the intellectuals who think they are better than everyone else? I don't know.... What are you offering with the "awakeness"?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Is this how you would "awaken" me by insulting me?

Consider it an Intervention of Reason.

and if so "awaken" me to what? What do you offer? That I am made of monkeys?

That you are related -- if this was true, wouldn't you want to know the details?

The thrill of going around and proving that there is no God?

What does that have to do with evolution? If you were serious in your faith -- if you really thought your faith would bring you closer to truth through a relationship with God -- supposedly the source of all truth -- then you'd want the full and honest account of who you are and how you got here.

Then when you give thanks and praise to God, you'd be doing it for the right reasons. Wouldn't you want that?

That my life has been a joke?

Why would you consider your life to be a joke?

That everything just happened one day...out of nothing?

Out of something -- and you get to look for what that something was.

That there is no purpose in my life higher than what this world offers?

Why is this a problem? Were you under the impression that you were entitled to more?

That my only hopes are scientific evidence that change continually?

"Hopes" for what, exactly?

The belief that scientists are all wonderful kind and selfless individuals who would never present their data to get the funding which they need to keep going?

Wouldn't you prefer something in the median between that and raving paranoia?

The right to attack, make fun of, malign and hate God Who has never done anything to me but encourage, promote, increase, and teach me a better way of life?

Did God do that, or did you?

To fit in with all the intellectuals who think they are better than everyone else?

They can't be any worse to talk to than all the Christians who think they're better than everyone else.

I don't know.... What are you offering with the "awakeness"?

Honesty. I'm sure he was under the impression you might be interested in it.

 

[Inan3]

Really? What "hypocrisy" was that? Did I falsely accuse someone of lying?

From Wikipedia
Hypocrisy is the act of condemning or calling for the condemnation of another person when the critic is guilty of the act for which he demands that the accused be condemned.

You accuse creationists of smearing and that's all you ever do. Look at your posts it's evident.

I guess genetic sequencing consists of "rhetoric" in your dictionary.

No, genetic sequencing is not rhetoric to me it's when they take biased inormation and then make a big case for it which isn't there. That is the rhetoric I speak of.

Why? Because he agrees with you?

No, because he gives me more information than you. You just give me your opinion.

From http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/widening_genetic_gap.htm#notes




First of all, as a general principle, data does not speak for itself; it is interpreted. Suppose that you are asked whether a given blue cube looks more like a blue pyramid or a bigger red cube. Your answer will differ based on which criterion you will choose; color or shape. The point that should be remembered about this study is that genetic differences are much more complex than what the evolution propagandists would have us believe by such descriptions as "99% similarity." Once other types of genetic variations are taken into account, this percentage significantly decreases. Yet, still, this last interpretation too seems to be overshadowed by evolutionist bias. An internationally respected biochemist Fazale Rana, PhD, denies even the 96% similarity as follows:

[W]hat we are seeing here is a scientific shell game… Researchers are manipulating the outcomes to try and show more similarities between chimps and humans than are actually there by focusing on a single type of genetic difference. When scientists take into account all the types of genetic differences and do a more global comparison, the similarities drop from 96% to about 85%. (10)Kathleen Campbell, "Leading Biochemist Says Chimp Genome Project is Seriously Flawed," 2 September 2005, http://www.earnedmedia.org/cpr0902.htm​

Secondly, we see once again that as there is gain in scientific knowledge, evolutionists experience loss. This is how the claims of vestigial organs and junk DNA were abandoned. These claims were based on an erroneous reasoning: "We don't know their functions, so they must be functionless." With the advance in scientific understanding of them, however, it was understood that the evolutionist claims were severe errors based on ignorance. The genetic similarity propaganda is going through the same process today. Scientists now see that the previous interpretations on genetic similarity were based on a superficial, hasty, clumsy and deceptive approach.

 

[Inan3]

Consider it an Intervention of Reason.

Cute as alway NP very cute

That you are related -- if this was true, wouldn't you want to know the details?

For what reason? I like monkeys. I like to visit them in the zoo. I like to watch them on TV. .... but quite frankly I don't relate to them in any way. They really don't matter too much in the scope of everyday life. To most people that is. Maybe if I was a scientist I could go on and on about them but truthfully if that was all I thought there was, I thnk, after about the first five years of "finding out the details" I would be very happy to go on to something else in my life. I suppose then I could go on to whales for five years and then another animal for five years and on and on and on and then I could lie on my death bed knowing that was it for life and say I've done it all. I've lived a full life, my only regret is that I didn't get to learn about the penguin as much as I could. Oh happy day.

What does that have to do with evolution? If you were serious in your faith -- if you really thought your faith would bring you closer to truth through a relationship with God -- supposedly the source of all truth -- then you'd want the full and honest account of who you are and how you got here.

Oh, you forget, Aron Ra wants to awaken me to the fact that there is no God. But I can see you want me to awaken to a God that lies because the scriptures are not true as they are written. Or they are written by nomadic men who didn't know anything. So, in that case how trustworthy would any of it be, anyway? So I will just throw away the scriptures now and then where would you steer me for this relationship with God that you speak of? Or perhaps I should just pick one of those that you have poked fun of perhaps Zeus. No, I suppose none of that would fit with me because I cannot rely on any those. I, too, would feel it was all a fairytale. So I would be awakened to the fact that my life was all a joke as I said above. Oh, Happy day!


Then when you give thanks and praise to God, you'd be doing it for the right reasons. Wouldn't you want that?

Oh, pullllease! Why would I ever do that?

Why would you consider your life to be a joke?

See above!

Out of something -- and you get to look for what that something was.

But where did that "something" come from. I suppose I could give my life to the quest of finding this out, though, I never could. Not in this life time and for what reason anyway who gives a flip? It doens't really matter.


Why is this a problem? Were you under the impression that you were entitled to more?

I guess I was now I must hate myself for that.

"Hopes" for what, exactly?

Nah, bad idea anyways! Pessamism is best or is it worst. I'm just new at this pessamism bit. I could get the hang of it.

Wouldn't you prefer something in the median between that and raving paranoia?

Well I've never tried raving paranoia, perhaps it's better or is that worse???

Did God do that, or did you?

You know your right, maybe I'm god. It's all about me. So screw everybody else. I am apewoman after all.

They can't be any worse to talk to than all the Christians who think they're better than everyone else.

No, no, I can't agree with you on this one. I have talked with these guys and quite frankly....nevermind.

Honesty. I'm sure he was under the impression you might be interested in it.

So this is what honesty is about, oh, how could I have been so blind.

NOTE TO ALL: In case you think I might in anyway be leaning this way I assure you I am not. I would want to die first before I lived a life apart from God and His wonderful ways.

 

[Nathan Poe]

For what reason? I like monkeys. I like to visit them in the zoo. I like to watch them on TV. .... but quite frankly I don't relate to them in any way. They really don't matter too much in the scope of everyday life. To most people that is. Maybe if I was a scientist I could go on and on about them but truthfully if that was all I thought there was, I thnk, after about the first five years of "finding out the details" I would be very happy to go on to something else in my life. I suppose then I could go on to whales for five years and then another animal for five years and on and on and on and then I could lie on my death bed knowing that was it for life and say I've done it all. I've lived a full life, my only regret is that I didn't get to learn about the penguin as much as I could. Oh happy day.

Not really the curious type, are you?

I thought Christians were all about the search for truth -- but I've been wrong before.

Oh, you forget, Aron Ra wants to awaken me to the fact that there is no God. But I can see you want me to awaken to a God that lies because the scriptures are not true as they are written. Or they are written by nomadic men who didn't know anything. So, in that case how trustworthy would any of it be, anyway? So I will just throw away the scriptures now and then where would you steer me for this relationship with God that you speak of?

Well, I won't speak for Aron-Ra or what he wants -- but if it does turn out that the Scriptures were written by ancient fallible men, and didn't just float down from heaven with God's ink still wet on the pages, would you throw the whole thing away?

Is the Bible worthless if it's not literal? Are you incapable of forming a relationship with God otherwise?

Or perhaps I should just pick one of those that you have poked fun of perhaps Zeus. No, I suppose none of that would fit with me because I cannot rely on any those. I, too, would feel it was all a fairytale. So I would be awakened to the fact that my life was all a joke as I said above. Oh, Happy day!

As I asked before, why a joke?

Oh, pullllease! Why would I ever do that?

I guess you wouldn't.

See above!

Because God is too big to be contained inside a book?

But where did that "something" come from. I suppose I could give my life to the quest of finding this out, though, I never could. Not in this life time and for what reason anyway who gives a flip? It doens't really matter.

What a depressingly futile worldview. Is this what Christianity teaches?

I guess I was now I must hate myself for that.

Why would you be full of such self-hatred?

Nah, bad idea anyways! Pessamism is best or is it worst. I'm just new at this pessamism bit. I could get the hang of it.

From this post, you sound like an old pro at pessmism.

Well I've never tried raving paranoia, perhaps it's better or is that worse???

Again, you sound like an old pro -- that bit about scientists lying to keep the grant money flowing in -- classic.

You know your right, maybe I'm god. It's all about me. So screw everybody else. I am apewoman after all.

You had the paranoia before -- now behold the raving part. Care to try to answer again?

No, no, I can't agree with you on this one. I have talked with these guys and quite frankly....nevermind.

I know the feeling -- try it on this side of the looking glass sometime.

So this is what honesty is about, oh, how could I have been so blind.

Religious fundamentalism has that effect.

NOTE TO ALL: In case you think I might in anyway be leaning this way I assure you I am not. I would want to die first before I lived a life apart from God and His wonderful ways.

How depressing.

 

[Aron-Ra]

So are you saying that evolution wrote "wrote what we can all read in the rocks? Or mitochondrial DNA? Because mere humans couldn't be responsible for that"? And when you said "who" wrote that was just an error of wording? Or not?

Creationism is based on a series of a dozen or so foundational falsehoods; foremost among them is the idea that accepting science means rejecting religion. What I was doing was recalling my own perspective from when I still believed in a truly supreme being. Eventually, my concept of that being moved away from the magical and into the natural, as my god became the Tao and finally nature itself. I have since come to realize that natural systems are surprisingly capable of improving thier own designs to an amazing degree of complexity.

 

[Aron-Ra]

I asked how one determines that something is impossible not improbable. Do you need me to explain the difference?

Sure. This should be good. Give me an example of one thing that is impossible, and explain the criteria required to determine that.

 

[Inan3]

Creationism is based on a series of a dozen or so foundational falsehoods; foremost among them is the idea that accepting science means rejecting religion. What I was doing was recalling my own perspective from when I still believed in a truly supreme being. Eventually, my concept of that being moved away from the magical and into the natural, as my god became the Tao and finally nature itself. I have since come to realize that natural systems are surprisingly capable of improving thier own designs to an amazing degree of complexity.

More hogwash!

 

[Inan3]

Not really the curious type, are you?

I thought Christians were all about the search for truth -- but I've been wrong before.

Well it will certainly not be found amongst the baboons and monkeys of this world, and if the shoe fits....

 

[Inan3]

Creationism is a form of idolatry, wherein adherants are unable to distinguish doctrine from deity.

Idoltry from what??