I'm afraid I see this as a little bit of a strawman allowing you to support Chalnoth when, from what you've said, your stance does differ from his significantly.
While I respect Chalnoth's point, I am not in any way beholden to agree or disagree with him.
But, I still maintain that it is
never logically valid to make a "Universal Negative" claim.
In the case of atheism, scientific or otherwise, clearly I, as a weak atheist, simply fail to reject the null hypothesis that there is no God. That does not mean I state "There is no god", but rather I fail to find any evidence that God exists, certainly none sufficient to make it likely I will not be making a Type I error in rejecting said null hypothesis.
I agree that religious scientists are not interjecting supernatural divine intevention into science. However, I see this as different from Chalnoth's "wall" hypothesis.
Well, in a very real sense it is a "wall". If God is who God is supposed to be, then God can do any and all things and we are without power to understand them. ERGO, God
could reach in and monkey with the reactions and make it go, and the proper theist would indeed have to assume that was possible.
Granted his emotive language is probably causing me to react negatively to it and a sensitive rephrasing may produce a statement I could agree with.
It is emotive. Many of us scientists do tend to react humanly once in a while and overstate a much more subtle and nuanced point. Chalnoth's "Wall Hypothesis" is reasonable in that it is a
de facto reality, whether it is fundamentally how one sees it or not.
As it stands he seems to be stating that when religious people are performing science they are acting as perfectly good atheists but when they address religious claims they lose all skepticism and rationality.
Well, to be fair, I kind of agree with that. Since science is, by necessity "a-theistic" (ie no gods in the mix) then when science is being done they are acting "a-theistically" and when religion is being done they are no longer acting "scientifically". When people hypothesize about an object that is either unfalsifiable (as most definitions of God turn out to be when pushed against the wall) or simply un-evidenced, then they are not scientific. Skepticism? Of God? Skepticism of God would seem to lead one where I have wound up, as an atheist. But if they have good evidence for God that all others can experience then they should definitely publish that. It could become the most important information ever provided to humanity.
Of course the evidence so far presented in support of God usually has many other "more mundane" explanations. Guess that's why we have an almost limitless number of "God Hypotheses" and "God Concepts" out there in the world over the course of history.
Of course they do not hold their beliefs because of the results of science and the methods they go about to accept religious claims are undoubtably different.
Indeed.
However, not looking for supernatural divine intervention does not make them atheists when they are performing science.
Again, I will have to disagree. I can think of no valid science that presents itself as having a potential effect "The Divine". I've simply never seen valid science like that. In fact, much the opposite, a total lack of the Divine is usually the hallmark of science. Rendering it, by definition "a-theistic".
It is still possible to look at science through theistic lenses.
Correct. However that is "tacked onto" and over and above the science itself. It is never a "tested" part of the science (unless, of course, in the case of "prayer" studies, which usually, if I recall, come out failing to reject the null that "prayer has NO impact"). Most theistic scientists do a-theistic science and then tack on some "meta-analysis" that this or that reveals the nature of God in nature, etc.
But note how it is not part of the science, qua science.
Indeed belief in the Abrahamic God (monotheistic, benevolent creator of the universe) could lead you to predict rational, consistent, discoverable laws under pinning the workings of the universe in a way that no other view would
Yet, ironically, many Christians pray fervently that those same physical laws be set aside for them when they are endangered. Or that they be allowed by the creator of the universe to be shifted into the "tails of the statistical distribution" as it suits them.
I know, I've been there with a vengeance!
Importantly even "highly highly unlikely" is not the same as saying it doesn't exist. I agree with thaumaturgy's argument about universal negatives. However, even the logic used to get to "highly highly unlikely" rests on some assumptions that those who believe in the supernatural would not accept, e.g. that if the supernatural did exist we would be able to study it with science.
Ah now we enter into the dreaded "Unfalsifiability of the Supernatural". If it can't be studied by the known human routes, then how, exactly, is it studied? How come so many on the earth throughout history have "known" so much about it, and yet so few agree with each other as to its scope and description?
Your view seems to be bordering on scientism, saying that the only way we can discover truth is through science.
When I roomed with my college bud, who is now a philosophy professor, we used to argue over Empiricism vs a priori reasoning. I was pretty hard-core empiricist, but I've soften my stance
in theory, but again, I will always ask "what other ways than by testing and observation" do we have to understand that which is not part of us?
If the supernatural has an existence outside of our brain, the surely we must be able to experience it. If it has a truth value that is
universal in extent then everyone must be able to access that.
In the entire course of human history I've seen no consistent, single detailed description of "God". I've seen many that look an awful lot like "what humans would design as a god", and I've seen many that share a "love your neighbor" kind of exhortations, but again, that is pretty fundamental to our survival. Why is God needed to explain these things?
If God is capable of doing anything and everything, then surely he could communicate clearly and in a way that all us simple primates crawling around on a rock in space could agree upon.
Observation, testing; what else is there to finding out the nature of God?
What better way? "Inspiration"? Nah, I can find 15 homeless schizophrenics who are "inspired" and "feeling" very intensely that the traffic light is watching them on behalf of the CIA. That doesn't make it a "truth".
My theory is that if you ever have to resort to conspiracy or self deception to explain the stand point of a group then you haven't properly understood their beliefs.
You will, understandably, forgive us scientists on the board who have had to hear
ad nauseam how scientists have "frozen out" the real creationist science, how scientists lie non-stop to hide the "truth" of creationism and how they white-wash bad data to make the unsuspecting believe the garbage we are publishing about evolution, origins, etc.
You are correct, when one resorts to "conspiracy" they have pretty much lost the argument. (Despite the emotional rhetoric, I don't think Chalnoth is necessarily going "full-bore" conspiracy on this).
To claim that everyone who holds religious beliefs discards all skepticism and rational thought
Well, to be fair, "skepticism"
must be abandoned in regards to religious, supernatural beliefs. "Rational Thought", not so much. There are plenty of fine logical "proofs" of God that are quite fascinating and show a great deal of rational thought. Obviously I (and others) find flaws in the construction of those thoughts, but in the end it's only a "mental construct" that can come close to explaining God without resort to data, facts, proof, etc.
does a severe disservice to a huge number intelligent religous people who put a great deal of thought into their beliefs.
Again, please forgive many of us atheists who have to be told ad nauseam that we are "without morality" (ie couldnt' tell good from bad), or that we are secretly theists who simply "hate" god for some unknown reason.
I know I certainly fall into some funks sometimes when I just want to rail at theists because I've had enough of being told about whatever conspiracy or atheist agenda I'm part of.
America at least is still religious in the majority and claims that science is atheistic or says that God does not exist are going to hurt the cause of science.
We americans also can't be bothered to:
1. live within our means without raking in massive personal debt
2. Convert to the metric system which binds most of the civilized world in common measurement
3. Conserve fuel instead opting to buy the biggest baddest vehicle known to mankind only to whine like babies when the price of fuel goes up
4. Vote for a president who will tell us what we need to do rather than vote for a president who will pander to us non-stop just to get in office.
So, to be fair, toadying to American's "baser instincts" is hardly going to serve science! (and I'm an American saying this!)
For Creationism to survive it needs outspoken atheists attempting to use science and evolution to disprove religion, like Dawkins.
Long before Richard Dawkins showed up on the scene the Creationists were busy trying to jail evolution-teaching. Long before Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris put pen to paper, the religious have been working overtime to get their unique "morality" foisted off on a mass of people who don't necessarily agree with it.
Even outside of the U.S. we see the limits of religious "fundamentalism" (of which Creationism is a part) and the kind of regressive features they can plaster onto a society that refuses to fight back.
THANK GOD Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens write stuff! Imagine 20 or 30 years ago finding one of their books in mass circulation! It's a glorious day that religion can be treated as
all other concepts in human endeavor! If it can stand up, it will stand. If it has to be protected from criticism, well, then sadly it deserves to be criticized.
It buys nicely into their claim of an atheistic elite conspiring against creation science.
Oh my, finally, after a couple millenia, 3 authors have dared to "speak out" against religion! They must be quashed! Even for the good of atheism...which must, by all means, be kept hidden, in the closet and kept away from children and the infirm!
I will believe any of this strange censorship
the day a presidential candidate for the U.S. presidency can stand up and say "I'm not a christian nor do I care one whit about religion!" and then that person gets elected.
Religious people have had center stage for long enough. If they can't share the spotlight then they need to get a stronger faith