Fact check: Competing town halls highlight Trump's dishonesty

[tulc]

Fact check: Competing town halls highlight Trump's dishonesty - CNNPolitics

The stark differences between President Donald Trump and Democratic nominee Joe Biden were on display during their competing town halls on Thursday night, and in no space was that clearer than the magnitude and frequency of their falsehoods.

The fact that the second debate was cancelled after Trump backed out of the proposed virtual format deprived Americans of a chance to see the two candidates sparring on the same stage. But where Biden scattered in a small number of exaggerations or misstatements over about an hour and a half, Trump unleashed a barrage of dishonest claims over about an hour.

tulc(thought this was interesting)

 

[hislegacy]

Absolutely two different ones:

Biden's softball questions where almost exclusively "How bad does the President stink?"

Trumps multiple confrontations from the debater where almost exclusively "How bad do you stink"

 

[creslaw]

I sometimes think the only difference between people who are Democrats & people who are Republicans is that the latter are not seduced by the bias of MSM.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Fact check: Competing town halls highlight Trump's dishonesty - CNNPolitics

tulc(thought this was interesting)

It's hard to take "fact checks" seriously when opinions are fact checked and deemed inaccurate for no other reason than CNN doesn't like the opinion. The way they started out their article indicated they were writing an editorial rather than straight journalism.

 

[Jamsie]

It's hard to take "fact checks" seriously when opinions are fact checked and deemed inaccurate for no other reason than CNN doesn't like the opinion. The way they started out their article indicated they were writing an editorial rather than straight journalism.

So which Fact Checks are from not liking opinions? FactChecking Trump's Town Hall - FactCheck.org

 

[Redwingfan9]

So which Fact Checks are from not liking opinions? FactChecking Trump's Town Hall - FactCheck.org

Saying Trump lied because he said we're "rounding the corner" on Coronavirus is attacking him for holding an opinion. One could view impending vaccines as a sign that we're "rounding the corner" as can better treatments. Dinging him as a liar for holding this opinion is outrageous.

Chalking up mail in voter fraud to simple "mistakes" is also dinging him for holding an opinion. Trump is perfectly entitled to believe some of these errors are intentional, especially when they all seem to omit his name or votes for him. There is also evidence of voter fraud all over the country. Whether you believe this is significant or not is a matter of opinion, not fact or lies.

If the President says he doesn't know much about QAnon and you have no evidence that he does know about them in any significant detail you can't call him a liar simply because you think he knows something.

Trump saying he saved 2 million people from Corona is a matter of opinion. That the figure assumed doing nothing is irrelevant in light of the fact that his administration did make moves on Corona, including shutting down travel from China in January for which he was called a racist by Democrats, including Biden.

That the FBI said years ago that the Obama administration didn't spy on his campaign is irrelevant in light of recent new information. There clearly was an investigation taking place, likely of dubious intent. It's a matter of opinion whether you believe it was spying or something else. The FBI exonerating itself is really sort of ridiculous.

Trump's exaggerations on the economy, Michigan lockdowns (he's partially correct) and such are tiresome. I'm not sure they rise to the level of lies but they are inaccurate and not really a matter of opinion. I'll grant that much, although at this point I think everyone understands the general argument he's trying to make.

 

[Jamsie]

Saying Trump lied because he said we're "rounding the corner" on Coronavirus is attacking him for holding an opinion. One could view impending vaccines as a sign that we're "rounding the corner" as can better treatments. Dinging him as a liar for holding this opinion is outrageous.

Chalking up mail in voter fraud to simple "mistakes" is also dinging him for holding an opinion. Trump is perfectly entitled to believe some of these errors are intentional, especially when they all seem to omit his name or votes for him. There is also evidence of voter fraud all over the country. Whether you believe this is significant or not is a matter of opinion, not fact or lies.

If the President says he doesn't know much about QAnon and you have no evidence that he does know about them in any significant detail you can't call him a liar simply because you think he knows something.

Trump saying he saved 2 million people from Corona is a matter of opinion. That the figure assumed doing nothing is irrelevant in light of the fact that his administration did make moves on Corona, including shutting down travel from China in January for which he was called a racist by Democrats, including Biden.

That the FBI said years ago that the Obama administration didn't spy on his campaign is irrelevant in light of recent new information. There clearly was an investigation taking place, likely of dubious intent. It's a matter of opinion whether you believe it was spying or something else. The FBI exonerating itself is really sort of ridiculous.

Trump's exaggerations on the economy, Michigan lockdowns (he's partially correct) and such are tiresome. I'm not sure they rise to the level of lies but they are inaccurate and not really a matter of opinion. I'll grant that much, although at this point I think everyone understands the general argument he's trying to make.

*An "opinion" can be that which is supported by fact and evidence or it can be based on emotions and personal feelings/desire. In other words the notion that all "opinions" are of equal value is simply false.

The answer from trump is in the present - Turning the corner = "to get past the most difficult area or period in something and begin to improve". The evidence completely opposes that statement...and "impending" vaccines looks to a future event, so clearly we have not "turned any corner"! One would think that the president is aware that cases are surging... surging is not a synonym for "turning the corner".

CDC Warns That Recent Coronavirus Surge Is "Really the Beginning"

Coronavirus cases are increasing in 38 states and D.C.

COVID-19 cases surging in US as several states report record increases

*Voter fraud has been shown to be extremely rare, and not worth the time to argue. Fact is trump's original 3 to 5 million illegal votes was a lie, and even his own FBI refutes his ongoing lies concerning fraud. I understand his use of such as a way to excuse in the event of his loss...

*One does realize that trump is the president, right? His being so uniformed, or is it ignorant, on so many subjects and issues is astounding... all that would be required would be reading, I guess he is adverse to that avenue. QAnon has been all over the news with their conspiracy theories for quite some time. Such information is at his disposal...if he wanted to know Johnny Callison's batting average in 1960 he could have the info available to him immediately.

"I know nothing about QAnon, I know very little," Trump said.

"Let me just tell you what I do hear about it is they are very strongly against pedophilia and I agree with that."

So evidently he does know something...and since he has retweeted QAnon "theories" myriad times one would think he would have some idea as to where the info came from... if not then it would appear to be just an inept and highly questionable promotion of false information!

"The QAnon conspiracy theory is centered on the baseless belief that Trump is trying to save the world by waging a secret campaign against enemies in the “deep state” and a child sex trafficking ring run by global elites who are satanic pedophiles and cannibals.

The conspiracy theory emerged on a notoriously racist and sexist 4chan message board in late 2017, but has crept into mainstream politics. Trump has retweeted QAnon-promoting accounts dozens of times and its followers flock to his rallies wearing clothes and hats with QAnon symbols and slogans."

Trump addresses QAnon conspiracy theory for the first time: 'I heard that these are people that love our country'

Donald Trump has promoted QAnon-linked Twitter accounts more than 250 times

Trump Promotes Baseless, QAnon-Endorsed Conspiracy Theory Alleging Obama Staged Bin Laden’s Killing

Trump isn't secretly winking at QAnon. He's retweeting its followers.

Do you recall this from Charlottesville:"The statement I made on Saturday, the first statement, was a fine statement, but you don't make statements that direct unless you know the facts. It takes a little while to get the facts. You still don't know the facts."

"And it's a very, very important process to me. And it's a very important statement. So I don't want to go quickly and just make a statement for the sake of making a political statement. I want to know the facts.”

Evidently that too was a lie...because he says and tweets things constantly while ignoring the FACTS!

*Yes, sure trump has saved 2 million lives from the coronavirus... why not 4 million or more? So thankful we should all be for his effective national plan! The fact is as you know that number was thrown out if nothing were done... but details, who cares about details.

*At the very least trump has been able to distort many people's view of the FBI and intelligence agencies... and no doubt his personal attorney barr will somehow concoct some contrivance on the overall situation...probably why
Dannehy left.

*Fine, you can call trump's pronouncements "exaggerations" and I would agree if they were infrequent however, it is almost constant. So we all agree that politicians will skew information in their favor, will tell falsehoods and such but again, trump has taken it to a whole new level. He is the president, a simple command and the info, facts, authoritative support are constantly at his disposal he simply prefers to make-up his own facts, exaggerate, and constantly "beat his own drum".

FACT: whether trump or biden the next president will have much to contend with, perhaps too much. The debt alone is now at 27 trillion... 7 trillion added under trump - the trump tax cuts will add much further to that - this nation is a mess...

 

[Redwingfan9]

*An "opinion" can be that which is supported by fact and evidence or it can be based on emotions and personal feelings/desire. In other words the notion that all "opinions" are of equal value is simply false.

The answer from trump is in the present - Turning the corner = "to get past the most difficult area or period in something and begin to improve". The evidence completely opposes that statement...and "impending" vaccines looks to a future event, so clearly we have not "turned any corner"! One would think that the president is aware that cases are surging... surging is not a synonym for "turning the corner".

CDC Warns That Recent Coronavirus Surge Is "Really the Beginning"

Coronavirus cases are increasing in 38 states and D.C.

COVID-19 cases surging in US as several states report record increases

*Voter fraud has been shown to be extremely rare, and not worth the time to argue. Fact is trump's original 3 to 5 million illegal votes was a lie, and even his own FBI refutes his ongoing lies concerning fraud. I understand his use of such as a way to excuse in the event of his loss...

*One does realize that trump is the president, right? His being so uniformed, or is it ignorant, on so many subjects and issues is astounding... all that would be required would be reading, I guess he is adverse to that avenue. QAnon has been all over the news with their conspiracy theories for quite some time. Such information is at his disposal...if he wanted to know Johnny Callison's batting average in 1960 he could have the info available to him immediately.

"I know nothing about QAnon, I know very little," Trump said.

"Let me just tell you what I do hear about it is they are very strongly against pedophilia and I agree with that."

So evidently he does know something...and since he has retweeted QAnon "theories" myriad times one would think he would have some idea as to where the info came from... if not then it would appear to be just an inept and highly questionable promotion of false information!

"The QAnon conspiracy theory is centered on the baseless belief that Trump is trying to save the world by waging a secret campaign against enemies in the “deep state” and a child sex trafficking ring run by global elites who are satanic pedophiles and cannibals.

The conspiracy theory emerged on a notoriously racist and sexist 4chan message board in late 2017, but has crept into mainstream politics. Trump has retweeted QAnon-promoting accounts dozens of times and its followers flock to his rallies wearing clothes and hats with QAnon symbols and slogans."

Trump addresses QAnon conspiracy theory for the first time: 'I heard that these are people that love our country'

Donald Trump has promoted QAnon-linked Twitter accounts more than 250 times

Trump Promotes Baseless, QAnon-Endorsed Conspiracy Theory Alleging Obama Staged Bin Laden’s Killing

Trump isn't secretly winking at QAnon. He's retweeting its followers.

Do you recall this from Charlottesville:"The statement I made on Saturday, the first statement, was a fine statement, but you don't make statements that direct unless you know the facts. It takes a little while to get the facts. You still don't know the facts."

"And it's a very, very important process to me. And it's a very important statement. So I don't want to go quickly and just make a statement for the sake of making a political statement. I want to know the facts.”

Evidently that too was a lie...because he says and tweets things constantly while ignoring the FACTS!

*Yes, sure trump has saved 2 million lives from the coronavirus... why not 4 million or more? So thankful we should all be for his effective national plan! The fact is as you know that number was thrown out if nothing were done... but details, who cares about details.

*At the very least trump has been able to distort many people's view of the FBI and intelligence agencies... and no doubt his personal attorney barr will somehow concoct some contrivance on the overall situation...probably why
Dannehy left.

*Fine, you can call trump's pronouncements "exaggerations" and I would agree if they were infrequent however, it is almost constant. So we all agree that politicians will skew information in their favor, will tell falsehoods and such but again, trump has taken it to a whole new level. He is the president, a simple command and the info, facts, authoritative support are constantly at his disposal he simply prefers to make-up his own facts, exaggerate, and constantly "beat his own drum".

FACT: whether trump or biden the next president will have much to contend with, perhaps too much. The debt alone is now at 27 trillion... 7 trillion added under trump - the trump tax cuts will add much further to that - this nation is a mess...

You're quibbling over opinions that you don't like and trying to pretend like your opinion is based in fact while others are not. The fact is we are turning the corner on Coronavirus from a treatment and vaccine perspective, the former of which the President has first hand experience with. You choose to look at things from a numbers perspective but your choice does not invalidate other ways of looking at the situation.

I'm not going to waste my time responding to each of your arguments. There are multiple ways of approaching issues and to call those whom approach problems different from you a liar is indicative of someone who is incapable of thinking deep and broadly. I'm not suggesting this of you but rather I'm arguing this point against bogus fact checkers. There is broad disagreement in political philosophy and what facts are relevant in reaching conclusions. Calling people liars because they don't emphasize the same facts is beyond ridiculous.

I miss the days when Milton Friedman or Bill Buckley could debate Francis Piven or other socialists so we can all see what facts both sides are interested in and how they form arguments. Instead we're stuck with the mainstream press, Trump, Obama and Biden who call people they don't agree with liars or otherwise ignore their substantive arguments.

 

[Jamsie]

You're quibbling over opinions that you don't like and trying to pretend like your opinion is based in fact while others are not. The fact is we are turning the corner on Coronavirus from a treatment and vaccine perspective, the former of which the President has first hand experience with. You choose to look at things from a numbers perspective but your choice does not invalidate other ways of looking at the situation.I'm not going to waste my time responding to each of your arguments. There are multiple ways of approaching issues and to call those whom approach problems different from you a liar is indicative of someone who is incapable of thinking deep and broadly. I'm not suggesting this of you but rather I'm arguing this point against bogus fact checkers. There is broad disagreement in political philosophy and what facts are relevant in reaching conclusions. Calling people liars because they don't emphasize the same facts is beyond ridiculous.
I miss the days when Milton Friedman or Bill Buckley could debate Francis Piven or other socialists so we can all see what facts both sides are interested in and how they form arguments. Instead we're stuck with the mainstream press, Trump, Obama and Biden who call people they don't agree with liars or otherwise ignore their substantive arguments.

Thank you, now there you've said it..."what facts both sides are interested in and how they form their arguments". Having in the past watched/listened often to Buckley's "Firing Line" and having his "On the Firing Line" on my bookshelf you must understand the point that was raised. Fact and evidence should be the basis for one's opinion, otherwise it has a foundation on mere feeling. An argument over the relevance of certain facts is not an argument of mere opinion. Political philosophy and economic concepts are open to interpretation and as you suggest "multiple ways of approaching issues". However, what has been laid bare is not interpretive but consequential fact. *So it is a verifiable fact that the virus is surging, and not "turning the corner", that is not "opinion". When we have a valid effective vaccine in place or when proven treatments are readily available and applied then one can state that we are "turning the corner". *No federal or state investigation has to date ever shown widespread voter fraud only that it is very rare. Etc., Etc., ....

I see the problem as an inability of trump supporters to reason through a pattern of rhetoric and behavior. That inability requires them to take each incident, each statement, each circumstance and view them in total isolation... a way to jettison past performance, statements, behavior, and the present circumstance ...thus thinking deeply and broadly is relegated to a biased sliver of thought.

That trump is appallingly lacking in linguistic proficiency does not negate the slovenliness of his rhetoric no matter how one chooses to undergo mental gymnastics and to dismiss his egocentric worldview. Any reasoned person could peruse the various catalogs of trump "lies" and at the very least note his propensity for falsehoods, exaggerations, misinformation, and yes, outright lies ... But as you suggest this is a waste of our time.