Biden gets Fact Checked

[Ana the Ist]

There is nothing wrong with comparing President Biden to Trump. As a matter of fact, comparing a current president to his predecessor (or to previous presidents) has been done throughout the history of our country. For the record, ridiculing Biden supporters for comparing him to Trump is nothing more than an attempt to control the discussion. It's often used as a means to shame them into silence.

It's whataboutism.

The point is that comparing Biden to Trump is an attempt to minimize any problems with Biden.

It's not a valid argument that the problems don't exist.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A few reasons why I have so much more confidence in Biden than I did with Trump:

• he has appointed people with a wide breadth of experience in the departments they are leading. He hasn't appointed a single lobbyist; nor has he appointed anyone who contributed millions of dollars to his campaign.
• he listens to those people. He trusts their advice.
• he reads their reports. He meets regularly with them.

I have been impressed by the enormous progress he has made in less than 100 days. His relevant experience--serving in the United States Senate, a very contentious and polarized group, for many years. He knows how to negotiate, to compromise, to listen to his colleagues. He has strong people skills, which shows in his compassion and empathy. We are a nation that badly needs healing, and while it seems like a near impossible task, I can't think of anyone who has better skills to attempt it.

I have little confidence in his appointments. They appear to be made for entirely ideological reasons or for the appearance of superficial diversity.

 

[rambot]

You act as if Trump is the bar, and anyone who isn’t as arrogant is okay.

Trump fits the DEFINITION of being arrogant. The definition I provided. IF you can find instances of Obama talking WAAAAAAY past his capacity then absolutely I would say he's arrogant too.

You act as if the word arrogant can mean whatever you want. It can't. You can not like Obama and be annoyed with how often he "talks about himself". But that doesn't mean he's arrogant; it just means he's annoying.

 

[rambot]

It's whataboutism.
It's not a valid argument that the problems don't exist.

Strangely, I don't think anyone has actually said they don't exist with Biden (though at this point in the discussion I'm not totally sure exactly which "problem" this discussion is referring to.)

The point is that comparing Biden to Trump is an attempt to minimize any problems with Biden.

But the thing is it doesn't MINIMIZE the problem by it's nature.

It provides a context from the importance of the complaints and problems. The issue is that context DOES minimize those problems when comparing Trump and Biden because Biden's version of those problems IS less worrisome though yes, still present.

Not only that, it is more than a bit disingenuous to begin suddenly care about Biden's missteps given the last 4 years of much larger missteps. Had the loud critiques of Trump been given a bit of space and "yeah, that wasn't really a good thing", then I would be REALLY open to comparing the two because it shows a bias but one with enough impartiality that I would think a dialogue would be fruitful.

 

[Guinan]

It's whataboutism.

The point is that comparing Biden to Trump is an attempt to minimize any problems with Biden.

It's not a valid argument that the problems don't exist.

Am I to assume that you've never compared one president to another some time in your lifetime?

Have you never compared a Democratic president to a Republican president before? As a Republican myself, I certainly have compared a Republican president to a previous Democratic one.

 

[Hammster]

Well, you didn't give evidence of "arrogance" (assuming we are both using the definition that I provided waay before to avoid conflating "arrogance" with something that is not arrogance). You gave examples of him giving speeches where he MENTIONS himself or a first person pronoun; but without context of individual quotes or examples.
Sorry but that isn't arrogance. I even asked you at the start of this discussion how you defined those words and you didn't have much to say. So if you want to keep arguing that Obama is "arrogant" but not give an explanation of what arrogance is, you'll have to forgive the rest of us if we are not exactly "on board" with your conflation of Obama and Trump both being arrogant.

Remember when I said “I, I, I, me, me, me”? That was my definition. Obama spent a lot of time talking about what he did. Not his Administration, or his team. Not a lot of we or us statements. That’s arrogant especially when there are lots of people involved.

I linked to three articles with links to the speeches. I’m sorry that you don’t want to read them, or that I don’t have a YouTube clip to watch. Your refusal to read the speeches doesn’t somehow nullify my point.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, there are different behavior and thought levels caused by a negative trait just as there is for a positive trait.

When there is one who says that he (paraph.) "knows more than the generals", "the scientists, etc." and feels comfortable making fun of a journalist who is physically impaired this is a whole new bar that Trump has set.
It's a phenomenon never before seen from a President in this country, that I know of.

I agree. Maybe you missed the part where I said that Trump was arrogant.

 

[Hammster]

Trump fits the DEFINITION of being arrogant. The definition I provided. IF you can find instances of Obama talking WAAAAAAY past his capacity then absolutely I would say he's arrogant too.

You act as if the word arrogant can mean whatever you want. It can't. You can not like Obama and be annoyed with how often he "talks about himself". But that doesn't mean he's arrogant; it just means he's annoying.

It appears that YOU made arrogance to be anything that Trump does. Thanks for being an example of my point.

 

[rambot]

Remember when I said “I, I, I, me, me, me”? That was my definition.

Why is that your definition though? That isn't the ACTUAL definition.

Why wouldn't you use the ACTUAL definition of words?

I linked to three articles with links to the speeches. I’m sorry that you don’t want to read them, or that I don’t have a YouTube clip to watch. Your refusal to read the speeches doesn’t somehow nullify my point.

I was on my phone when I saw those articles and I didn't see the speeches that they quoted from.

So I just took a look. I saw the links but there were no links to the speeches. I did actually try to do google searches and youtube video searches but perhaps my algorhythms are messed I could find nothing referencing your arguments (in video form) or any of these speeches.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Strangely, I don't think anyone has actually said they don't exist with Biden (though at this point in the discussion I'm not totally sure exactly which "problem" this discussion is referring to.)

That's the whole point. If you're just going to say "but Trump" for four years....you're deliberately avoiding any real examination of problems with the Biden administration.

But the thing is it doesn't MINIMIZE the problem by it's nature.

It provides a context from the importance of the complaints and problems. The issue is that context DOES minimize those problems when comparing Trump and Biden because Biden's version of those problems IS less worrisome though yes, still present.

I get that Biden's problems are less worrisome to you than Trump's. As important as that may seem to you...it's entirely useless to a discussion about Biden's problems.

Thanks for telling us how you feel...now let's discuss Biden's problems.

Not only that, it is more than a bit disingenuous to begin suddenly care about Biden's missteps given the last 4 years of much larger missteps. Had the loud critiques of Trump been given a bit of space and *snip*

I was more than willing to discuss legitimate criticism of the Trump administration with anyone who made them. Sadly, legitimate criticism was abandoned about a year into Trump's presidency. The idea that Democrats chose to promote instead was some highly racialized viewpoint of a US government that was illegitimate from it's very creation until today.

Aka "it's white people's fault".

Obviously this strategy has a certain appeal towards certain demographics, and it's simple explanation for everything (see above) is certainly easy to understand and repeat as long as you don't think for yourself or actually try to analyze it seriously.

If you want to discuss Trump's legitimate faults (and he has no lack of those) the time to do that was the last four years. If you want to discuss the one criticism the left made about Trump (something something white supremacy) then we should have a discussion about why Biden appointed an actual black supremacist to the DOJ.

I don't have to stretch the definition of black supremacist to prove this either....I don't have to make guesses about her thoughts. She wrote about her beliefs in inherent genetic, moral, and spiritual superiority of black people.

 

[Hammster]

Why is that your definition though? That isn't the ACTUAL definition.

Why wouldn't you use the ACTUAL definition of words?


I was on my phone when I saw those articles and I didn't see the speeches that they quoted from.

So I just took a look. I saw the links but there were no links to the speeches. I did actually try to do google searches and youtube video searches but perhaps my algorhythms are messed I could find nothing referencing your arguments (in video form) or any of these speeches.

Arrogance

offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.

That seems to define both of them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Am I to assume that you've never compared one president to another some time in your lifetime?

Have you never compared a Democratic president to a Republican president before? As a Republican myself, I certainly have compared a Republican president to a previous Democratic one.

I tend to compare the values and issues that a person says they care about from one day to the next.

For example, the people who claimed to care about the lack of space and accommodations of illegal immigrants in short term detention facilities are....for some reason....completely silent now. That's despite the fact that they must be aware of the record numbers of unaccompanied children crossing the border.

What do you make of that? Are those people ignorant? Misinformed? Hypocritical?

 

[rambot]

That's the whole point. If you're just going to say "but Trump" for four years....you're deliberately avoiding any real examination of problems with the Biden administration.

No. I'm not. It is being stated and that's it.

Why do Democrats have an obligation of examining any problems with Biden?
For some reason we here this soooooo often.

I get that Biden's problems are less worrisome to you than Trump's. As important as that may seem to you...it's entirely useless to a discussion about Biden's problems.

Thanks for telling us how you feel...now let's discuss Biden's problems.

And if they are legitimate problems, sure. Let's discuss them.

I was more than willing to discuss legitimate criticism of the Trump administration with anyone who made them. Sadly, legitimate criticism was abandoned about a year into Trump's presidency. The idea that Democrats chose to promote instead was some highly racialized viewpoint of a US government that was illegitimate from it's very creation until today.

So you TRULY believe that legitimate criticism of Trump ended a year into Trump's administration? Well that's just insane. Trump's inanity and scandals did NOT stop after the first year. Perhaps that's really a matter more of your perception or willingness to listen to legitimate criticism.

Aka "it's white people's fault".
Obviously this strategy has a certain appeal towards certain demographics, and it's simple explanation for everything (see above) is certainly easy to understand and repeat as long as you don't think for yourself or actually try to analyze it seriously.

Aww....I feel so bad for the white people who had to deal with all the terrible treatment for the 3 years under trump. All them black folks suggesting their lives are harder than yours. That must have got SUPER annoying.

If you want to discuss Trump's legitimate faults (and he has no lack of those) the time to do that was the last four years. If you want to discuss the one criticism the left made about Trump (something something white supremacy) then we should have a discussion about why Biden appointed an actual black supremacist to the DOJ.

Oh man. I honestly can't discuss this with you if you think "the one criticism the left made about trump" exists. The left had many, many, many criticisms about Trump and you choose to be selective as to focus on the ONE thing you talk about the most.

I'm not interested, really, in talking about Trump anyways. I AM interested in talking about Republicans who ignore those "legitimate faults" of Trump as they, in my opinion, completely dwarf comparable concerns with Biden.

 

[rambot]

Arrogance

offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.

That seems to define both of them.

Huh. Where did you get that definition from?

So to be clear, Obama's confidence was offensive because he said "I", "me", and "my" too often and because he took credit for things that his administration did?

But what about when he admitted or regretted his mistakes? It's kind of hard to maintain superiority if you are willing to admit you make mistakes.

 

[rambot]

I tend to compare the values and issues that a person says they care about from one day to the next.

For example, the people who claimed to care about the lack of space and accommodations of illegal immigrants in short term detention facilities are....for some reason....completely silent now. That's despite the fact that they must be aware of the record numbers of unaccompanied children crossing the border.

What do you make of that? Are those people ignorant? Misinformed? Hypocritical?

I think they could be underinformed on this issue, yes.

I DO think there are still people voicing concern though I would agree that CF has gotten very quiet about that.

Fair point.

But again, that makes the critique of Republicans JUST as valid and frankly, it seems like that should also be worthy a cross word or to from yourself.

 

[Hammster]

Huh. Where did you get that definition from?

Dictionary.Com.

If you prefer Webster’s

an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuousclaims or assumptions

Why? What do you think it means?

 

[Ana the Ist]

No. I'm not. It is being stated and that's it.

Why do Democrats have an obligation of examining any problems with Biden?
For some reason we here this soooooo often.

Besides the inherent value of self analysis?

Honest and open discussion of problems within the party can lead to solving those problems or at least keep them from getting worse...or provide a plan for future solutions.

It also provides some level of insight into the party's strengths and weaknesses and how to improve upon them.

On a moral level I suppose there's the argument that the voters have made a choice and flat out denial of problems is tantamount to denying the consequences of one's own actions and responsibilities therein.

But that's just off the top of my head.

And if they are legitimate problems, sure. Let's discuss them.

Well I'm not sure what the left considers legitimate anymore.

So you TRULY believe that legitimate criticism of Trump ended a year into Trump's administration? Well that's just insane.

The vast majority of it.

Trump's inanity and scandals did NOT stop after the first year. Perhaps that's really a matter more of your perception or willingness to listen to legitimate criticism.

Remember how the left held long discussions about the unfilled seats in his cabinet?

Me neither.

Aww....I feel so bad for the white people who had to deal with all the terrible treatment for the 3 years under trump. All them black folks suggesting their lives are harder than yours. That must have got SUPER annoying.

Is that all it was? Lol a mere suggestion?

I have posters on here I can quote that are basically saying they believe that black people have magical racism-detecting powers that give them mind reading abilities.....but just regarding racism.

Oh man. I honestly can't discuss this with you if you think "the one criticism the left made about trump" exists. The left had many, many, many criticisms about Trump and you choose to be selective as to focus on the ONE thing you talk about the most.

It tried many criticisms....but only one appealed to the demographics they wanted.

I'm not interested, really, in talking about Trump anyways. I AM interested in talking about Republicans who ignore those "legitimate faults" of Trump as they, in my opinion, completely dwarf comparable concerns with Biden.

Why?

Trump isn't in office....why would that matter at all?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think they could be underinformed on this issue, yes.

I DO think there are still people voicing concern though I would agree that CF has gotten very quiet about that.

Fair point.

But again, that makes the critique of Republicans JUST as valid and frankly, it seems like that should also be worthy a cross word or to from yourself.

What critique?

The left called our Border Patrol and ICE nazis, complained about soap and toothbrushes, and claimed this was evidence of white supremacy.

Is that a legitimate criticism in your mind?

Trump declared a crisis in either December 18 or January 19....and the left made jokes about it and mocked him. They then tied up support for 4 of the next six months until Border Patrol agents and support staff leaked photos could prove there was a crisis. It took that to finally get Democrats to provide support since they blocked every effort at reform.

You want a critique? The Democrats don't have any position on illegal immigration. It doesn't even exist. They can't openly support any reasonable plan without losing their "marginalized voters" and they can't tell you the truth. The US response to Covid devastated the economy....small businesses are dead everywhere....and literally the worst possible thing we could do is add another million uneducated hungry people who will definitely be feeding off your taxes each year.

So instead of unveiling the plan for the border....Democrats are literally demanding the FBI find white supremacists where they already said they can't find any.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

DUE TO MULTIPLE RULE VIOLATIONS

MOD HAT OFF​