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extreme feminism ?

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suzie

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it isnt about tearing down --it is a discussion. Learned Theologians disagree on many interpretations in scripture. I believe it is unscriptural to withold any person from using their gifts and calling. This isnt an essentials of faith issue. But it is an important issue. As I have stated in my prior post, sometimes scripture is difficult to understand, but this hopefully will set you on a quest to seek out the hermaneutical concepts and interpretations of what was actually going on during Paul and Timothy's ministries and to take time to seek out the answers. Look at the women that paul ministered with . There were 12 women who co-workers with Paul in the gospel ministry.. Phoebe was called by Paul as a "servant in the church of Cenchrea" Paul regularly uses the term servant to refer to persons clearly understood to be ministers of the gospel, such as Christ, Timothy, Apollos, himself, Epaphras, etc. Junia was noted as outstanding among the apostles--she was understood to be a woman by early church fathers and an apostle. I am sorry that you feel that somehow by allowing woman their authority as called, that it would put things in disarray. I was an elder in my prior church, and I truly felt called and led to this role. I served as called and was faithful. Nothing became disarrayed. In fact, we our team worked very well together--both men and women.
 
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Annabel Lee

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fem·i·nism Pronunciation Key (fm-nzm)
n.
Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
The movement organized around this belief.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.




feminism

n 1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women 2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women



What part of the definintion of "feminism" does anyone find disturbing?
It's fairly basic.
 
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sola fide

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"I felt called" is not a sufficient answer as far as I am concerned. That is the same concept that people used to say "God led me to do such and such".
I can see the point of why Paul taught what he taught in his epistles. This is not a sexist statement, so bear with me. Women are highly emotional beings, often led by those emotions. I however, believe Scripture takes precedent over emotions...There are several biblical implications in Scripture of women taking on roles as teachers, church hosts, etc... but this hardly allows them to usurp the authority Paul explicitly, underscore explicitly gave to males in the church. Remember...we are dealing with explicit scripture in 1 Timothy. He commanded, not recommended that women take no position of authority over men.
And on the topic of women's emotionalism. I attended a charismatic church for nearly 2 years after I first received Christ...here's a couple of things I noticed-
1. People spoke in tongues
2. Out of said "people" approximately 80 percent of them were female
3. The church accepted women evangelists
4. Every woman I heard speak did not speak in a "feminine" manner, they acted aggresively and in what I would "stereotype" as a male manner

Non-Scriptual conclusion- Since women are not "made" to be in speaking positions, they over-compensate(excuse spelling) to make themselves acceptable.

Scriptual conclusion- women should accept roles becoming of a meek, modest, feminate woman...not trying to draw attention,not doing anything to take away from the general edification of the sheep, nor usurp male authority in "church".

In my personal, non-scriptual, experience women did cause distraction and lead to myself not being edified to the extent I needed...and for that reason I left that church. Luckily, now I have found a church of like-minded believers who would agree with the vast majority of what I have just stated.
You may want to start another thread on this one, I think we're getting way off topic here.

Soli Deo gloria
 
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suzie

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If stating that women are highly emotional being is not sexist--it dont know what it is. It at the very least is judgemental and has no biblical or factual basis. You are speaking from your point of view regarding women. Now here is my point of view...Genesis 3:16 was the consequence of sin whereas women desire to rule over men and men to rule over women. This is not creation mandate but a relationship intended to be mutuality, partnership and equality is now marred by sin. Jesus' ministry began to restore women (who were at that time culturally subordinate and inferior in every way) to their place of equality. Such as with slavery, and also taxation by Rome, Jesus as well as Paul worked within sinful culture structures to achieve the goals of the kingdom. This did not mean they supported those structures. If you understand the culture at this time as well as Greek and Hebrew meanings, it will bring a new light to your interpretations. I believe it is Your pride that holds such stand on women. Well, soli, I was called and that is the only way I can tell you. I prayed about it, I was approached, I was elected unanimously to this ministry of office within the church. I am gifted as a leader, I made sometimes hard choices and decisions for the good of the church, we always sought out the Lord's direction and I will stand accountable for how I served. BTW, the term "helper" as described in Genesis as woman for man in Hebrew is 'ezer and is used over 20 times in the OT and never used as a subordinate means. It almost always refers to God or someone in a superior position.Thus the term helper is not to be understood to be in submission or service to man, but one who serves God with man. Paul taught what he taught in the Corinth and church of ephesis what he taught because he was dealing with many cultural diversities and recent converts from paganism. That is why he addressed the hair, speaking during service, etc. Due to their backgrounds, they were bringing with them other cultures that were diverting Christianity. Pauls message through this is to place the church in harmony. They needed unity. Women were also at great disadvantages as far as knowing scripture or having any learning. Remember Galations 3:28- "there is neither Jew nor Greek slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
 
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1 Cor 11 does say that man is the "head" of woman, but, like suzie I would point out that kephale (kefalh) does not necessarily mean "head" as in "lord, ruler, authority" but rather as in "source." This accords to Genesis and the creation of woman from man. It also avoids the problem of subordinationism if we say God the Father rules over God the Son, that they are not equal - which is not orthodox Trinitarian belief but subordinationism.

"What I suspect Paul means [in the above passage] is that in the Lord there are no distinctions, but that in the present world there are, and it is in the present world that Christian obedience is to be practised. The established order must be upheld so long as it lasts, but Christians know it is only provisional and that in the New Age its distinctions will disappear."

(A. ZIESLER Pauline Christianity Revised Edition (Oxford University Press 1990) p125)


"We cannot see a hierarchy here as the Son will be as far removed from the Father as we are from Him. Nay and the woman will be as far removed from us as we are from the Word of God. And what the Son is to the Father, this both we are to the Son and the woman again to the man. And who will endure this?"

(John Crysostom Homilies on the Epistle to the Corinthiansfrom "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church" ed. Philip Schott vol. XII, New York: The Christian Literary Company 1889. Trans. Rev. Talbot W. Chambers) p150-1)

I would also point out that both Paul and Jesus would have prayed to God with their heads covered - was this shameful? If we are not to say that Jesus shamed himself and God when he prayed in the synagogues, then we must admit that 1 Cor 11 is based on submitting to the customs of Corinth, so as not to shame God by appearing immoral in that city.


As for women holding offices in churches, I think to look at Phoebe of Romans 16:1 is instructive. She was described as a diakonon (diakonon), which is the same word elsewhere translated deacon (the male form, not deaconess). She was also described as a prostasis (prostatiV) of many, and of Paul in v2. This word can be taken one of two ways - that she was a helper, or a community leader/president.

Its also interesting to note Paul's statement, again in Romans 16: 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsment and my fellow prisoners; they are of note among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.. The name of Junia has been debated for centuries - Junia is generally a female name, Junias would be male, and a variant form names her as Julia. If either Julia or Junia are the names of this apostle, then there was a female apostle. If the name was Junias, Paul was here talking about a male apostle. Interesting, eh?

And the objections against often come from a small number of verses, such as this:

I permit no woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man (1 Tim 2:12).

Which brings up questions - is Paul (or whoever wrote this letter) here saying that Prisca was wrong to teach Apollos? This also brings up application problems - if we take this as meaning that in no instance may a woman be in authority over a man, whether inside the church or outside it, then we must say that, for example, it is not possible to have female moderators on a board such as this. We would also have to seriously curtail the activities of female posters who are Christians. While many seem quite happy to say from these verses that women may not be priests/pastors/ministers, they generally avoid applying it to other situations.

It is noticeable here that Paul did not use the normal word for "authority" (exousia) here, but authentein (auqentein) which generally gives a sense of being domineering - women are not to domineer over men. The same idea is expressed in the KJV when it says women should not usurp authority over a man - notice it says 'usurp' not just have authority.

1 Tim 3:8-13: Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for gain; they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then if they prove themselves blameless then let them serve as deacons. The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things.This means either the deacon's wife must be all these things, or that the women deacons must be. No wives are mentioned in connection with other ministries, women appear in the rules about ministers and the texts speak of women rather than wives. Heine then suggests that the office of deacon for women has survived until then, but is not important to the author. 

"Their [women's] influence extended from Caesarea to Rome. Mothers, wives, sisters (in this case physical and not just Christian sisters) and young girls worked at spreading the new faith and building up the communities. Their functions ranged from the highest to the lowest. They worked as apostles, deacons, community leaders, teachers and prophets. They travelled as missionaries and did charitable work; they preached, taught, gathered the believers together and sewed clothes for women. There were well-to-do women among them who shared what they had and kept open house, and there were poor women and slaves. They worked hard, had their differences of opinion, and could be bewitched by heretical teachers. In all this they were no different from men and fellow Christians."

(Susanne HEINE Women and Early Christianity: Are the Feminist Scholars Right? ("Frauen de fruhen Christen heit") trans. John BOWDEN (Vandenhoeck and Ruprecht 1986) p90)

This is extracted from an essay I once wrote, so please forgive me if any part seems patchy!

-Divinus
 
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sola fide

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Ok, let's bend some more Scripture for all it's worth. I never stated that women cannot be teachers...I also said that their roles in church are of equal importance of men's. What I said was that Paul, WHO DID WRITE 1 TIMOTHY, since you were questioning that- see 1 Tim. 1:1, unless he wrote the introduction and someone else comleted the letter, demanded that no woman be in a place of authority to "his son" in faith, Timothy.
As for Phoebe, the greek term diakonos can indeed be translated deacon or minister, but it can also be translated servant...any commentary will tell you that. If we want to stretch scripture, then most commentaries will tell you that Phoebe is most likely the bearer of this letter.
You also quoted 1 Tim. 3:8-13, but you failed to mention that the deacon is to be the "husband of one wife". This would be difficult for a woman.
Women can speak out about issues, they are not inferior beings, but they were not created for authoritative positions in the church, scripture explicitly teaches this, it's not my opinion.
If anyone even thinks about embracing "sola scriptura" there is no way they can stretch the scriptures to say otherwise. Do you wonder why there were no female apostles? Disciples yes, apostles no. Let scripture interpret scripture. I was once fine with women preachers, actually until about 6 or 7 months ago, but then I realized our opinions are tainted by our depraved nature....the Word of God, however is not. And when an apostle, Paul, mandates his apostolic authority and says NO, the scripture screams out.

Martin Luther said that we don't need to scream where the scripture whispers or whisper where the scripture screams...The explicit mandate in 1 Timothy is definitely a scream...You do know the difference between explicit and implicit scripture right? Explicit scripture says things such as Thou shalt not or I charge thee. Paul gives explicit scripture denying women authority in the church, it's as simple as that...the scriptures can be beant to say anything, but I say that scripture interprets scripture. And since the sciptures say that there were no women apostles, and basically no women in absolute authority, I must incline to agree that what Paul said in 1 Timothy is right on.

Soli Deo gloria!
 
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Originally posted by sola fide
Ok, let's bend some more Scripture for all it's worth. I never stated that women cannot be teachers...

I was merely taking the scriptures used against women's full participation in churches to discuss. I did not say that you supported the traditional interpretation of Paul's words.

What I said was that Paul, WHO DID WRITE 1 TIMOTHY, since you were questioning that- see 1 Tim. 1:1, unless he wrote the introduction and someone else comleted the letter

I merely noted that some scholars consider 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus, to be pseudopigraphical as they show evidence of more ordered church structure than earlier epistles.

As for Phoebe, the greek term diakonos can indeed be translated deacon or minister, but it can also be translated servant...any commentary will tell you that. If we want to stretch scripture, then most commentaries will tell you that Phoebe is most likely the bearer of this letter.

I am aware that diakonon means servant - it is that which tells us that deacons/pastors are to be servants both of the congregation and of Christ. My point was that the male form of this word was used of a female - if she was a servant in a non-official capacity, if she was not a deacon, why then use the male form and not the female? My guess is that the male form had become associated with the position of deacon, and so Paul used the male form in order to show Phoebe as an official. I am also aware that commentaries sometimes say Phoebe was the bearer of the letter - which may or may not be, the text does not really give an indication of who carried the letter.

You also quoted 1 Tim. 3:8-13, but you failed to mention that the deacon is to be the "husband of one wife". This would be difficult for a woman.

However, and the women may refer to female deacons - especially so seeing as Paul does not refer to "wives", but to women. Also, it is common in our language to use male terms to cover both males and females - hence the default pronoun when describing people is "he", unless you are speaking of a large group of only women. The same principle may well apply here.

Women can speak out about issues, they are not inferior beings, but they were not created for authoritative positions in the church, scripture explicitly teaches this, it's not my opinion.

From what I have studied, I have reached a different conclusion of what the scriptures say.

Do you wonder why there were no female apostles? Disciples yes, apostles no. Let scripture interpret scripture. I was once fine with women preachers, actually until about 6 or 7 months ago, but then I realized our opinions are tainted by our depraved nature....the Word of God, however is not. And when an apostle, Paul, mandates his apostolic authority and says NO, the scripture screams out.

As I mentioned, Junia/Julia may have been a female apostle.

Martin Luther said that we don't need to scream where the scripture whispers or whisper where the scripture screams...The explicit mandate in 1 Timothy is definitely a scream...You do know the difference between explicit and implicit scripture right? Explicit scripture says things such as Thou shalt not or I charge thee. Paul gives explicit scripture denying women authority in the church, it's as simple as that...the scriptures can be beant to say anything, but I say that scripture interprets scripture. And since the sciptures say that there were no women apostles, and basically no women in absolute authority, I must incline to agree that what Paul said in 1 Timothy is right on.

I agree with Paul that women ought not to take authority not rightfully theirs, ought not to perform some sort of coup or back-stabbing in order to get power, and I also agree with Paul that women are not to lord it over others. As indeed all Christians are commanded.

-Divinus
 
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sola fide

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You still haven't given me that anser I'm looking for, this discussion is going to cause nothing but dogma on both our parts so I'm going to leave it be for now. But I still believe the scripture are clear on these issues and that it has been ran around for years in order to support a non-Biblical practice.

Soli Deo gloria!
 
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Thunderchild

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Ok, let's bend some more Scripture for all it's worth. I never stated that women cannot be teachers
Paul did.

Women can speak out about issues, they are not inferior beings, but they were not created for authoritative positions in the church, scripture explicitly teaches this, it's not my opinion.
Paul wrote it - it isn't established as scripture until you can find a second author who made the same rulings. PARTICULARLY in view of the facts:

that a prophet ranks second in the church,
your sons and your daughters will prophesy is a part of the OT prophecies regarding the new covenant. (Also note that Paul DOES admit to the existence of female prophets.)
Deborah was a JUDGE in pre king times of Israel.
The aforementioned Priscilla DID teach a man.
Junia is named as an apostle in all but ONE single copy of the extant manuscripts containing that passage.

There are a number of passages which show women to be in positions of authority with God's approval - and Paul's writings alone stand in opposition.

Nor is there any viable way to demonstrate that Paul did not mean to say what he apparently meant. (though "speaking back" in church is not one that I have investigated.) If there WAS a viable way to show that Paul didn't mean to say what he did, I would be delighted.

As it stands, if a woman is shown to be exemplary and approved, I will appoint her to the position of an elder of a church ... and I will, if it is shown that God approves the appointment, confirm a woman as pastor of a church.

What people fail to understand is that Paul's edicts regarding women holding positions of authority over men were disregarded almost universally by the churches for the better part of the first 300 years of the Christian era. EVEN THE CHURCH OF ROME ITSELF DISREGARDED THOSE EDICTS during that time.
 
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sola fide

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First, the prophecy of Joel about females prophesying was fulfilled in Acts chapter 2. How do I know this? B/c Peter said so. Secondly the fact that Rome disregarded Paul's teaching on this matter hardly makes their stance true. I'm gonna start a new thread on this, this is getting way off course with the topic. By the way, how can God show His approval of a woman pastor?...I'll answer that myself...through the scriptures, His true revelation. And He has already answered that question through Paul.

Soli Deo gloria!
 
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Thunderchild

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Of course - through Paul. No other author of the Bible was authoritative. It was written by one author, so that makes it so - despite the Bible's own re-iterated declaration that every fact is affirmed on the testimony of two or more reliable witnesses.

And that, by the way, is precisely how God shows whether a given person is accepted for a given role - all the way from apostle and right down through the ranks to the elder ... the person starts to do the job AND get results, without the "approved" training and prior endorsement of those who make the decisions about who is to do them. In short, God bypasses the human heirarchy and appoints the person direct. Which is why "confirm" was the word used.
 
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Thunderchild

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However, and the women may refer to female deacons - especially so seeing as Paul does not refer to "wives", but to women. Also, it is common in our language to use male terms to cover both males and females - hence the default pronoun when describing people is "he", unless you are speaking of a large group of only women. The same principle may well apply here.

You are of course correct in stating that the Greek follows this same pattern as do most languages. However, in English, "he" has two genders. the first being masculine: the second, neuter. Being a pro-noun, he takes the gender of the noun that it replaces.

The man - he - man is masculine (usually), the pronoun is masculine.
The person - he - person is neuter, the pronoun is neuter.

The pencil belonging to Jane - Jane's pencil - by contraction: Jane, his pencil.
 
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Thunderchild

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Feminism by definition may mean counting men and women as equals.

In practice it works out to be, for the most part, a bid to place men in inferior position to women. So yes, the term "extreme feminism" would probably be the correct term as a descriptor for such activities.

That the church should provide no place for sexism might be a better approach.

(although I do note the tendency among many to believe that only men can be sexist, women being above such things.) In fact, recalling a time when a man was accused of sexism, and upon his denying it - the woman making the accusation declared "Of course you are sexist, all men are chauvanistic - it's genetic." All those nodding sagely in agreement seem to have been wholly unaware that the woman had expressed a blatantly sexist opinion of just about the worst order. The accused man responded - "If I be a male chauvanist pig, you are my equal as a female sexist sow."
 
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