Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus

[StThomasMore]

. Having said that, there is still some evidence to the contrary, since the third and most specific of the three infallible Papal Bulls excludes pagans from salvation. Nevertheless, the bulk of the writings from saints and Church Fathers deals with schismatics (Eastern Orthodox), heretics (Protestants) and Jews.

You are talking about the one from Pope Eugene IV right?

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.


Pretty strong wording when he includes "without a doubt"

 

[Basil the Great]

Do you agree with 'some of them' Basil? Or do you have questions about what the Church truly teaches in our present day, notwithstanding the three papal bulls you mentioned. I am wondering if you have difficulty accepting anything beyond these Bulls, saints, and Church Fathers. It almost appears that you are not open to further teachings from Vatican II. Yet Thomas Aquinas was rather clear about this, as well. Have you read him yet?

St. Barnabus - While I do not recall the words of Aquinas, I imagine that I must have read his writings. As a non-Catholic, I heartily welcome the Vatican II teaching on salvation for non-Catholics. As to whether or not I agree with some of the Ultra-Traditionalists interpretation of the EENS doctrine, I remind you that it is not allowed for a guest in this OBOB Forum to promote views contrary to those of the Vatican.

 

[St_Barnabus]

Context is everything, St. Thomas More. Remember, these Bulls were written in the 1400's. There was only one faith or paganism. The Reformation had not occurred, splintering into thousands of denominations. It is theologically imprudent and erroneous to promote this concept as if it pertains to our age.

I repeat,
However, these dogmas must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands them ... and currently teaches them.

That is the problem we run into whenever this topic is aired on the internet. Too many ultra-trads attempt to convert Catholics into Feeneyism.

EDIT:

This would be a good place to refresh everyone's memory about the OBOB Statement of Purpose.
Hopefully we will keep in mind that the Statement includes teachings of the Catechism and Councils, including Vatican II.

 

[Basil the Great]

You are talking about the one from Pope Eugene IV right?

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.


Pretty strong wording when he includes "without a doubt"

Yes, you quoted the correct Papal Bull. The other two Papal Bulls are fairly strong, but they pale in comparison to the above. Nevertheless, in all fairness, it should be pointed out that the Church now believes that since it has been so many centuries since both Eastern Orthodox and Protestants have broken from Holy Mother Church, that "invincible ignorance" could save some non-Catholic Christians, as current day Protestants and Eastern Orthodox are now many generations removed from the respective breaks from the Church.

I should also add that when some Ultra-Traditionalists say that the EENS interpretation totally changed with Vatican II, such a statement is misleading, if not outright inaccurate. Popes began speaking of "invincible ignorance" in a general manner as early as the mid-1800's. (It was referred to in the 1600's or 1700's by a Pope or two, but only in regards to pagan natives in Latin America, so that is a little different.) We also have a German mystic, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, 1774-1824, who taught that "more Protestant souls stayed in Purgatory the longest not because they were worse than anyone else, but because so few people prayed for the repose of their souls or offered up Masses for their souls". Now it is possible that Blessed Emmerich actually had visions of souls in Purgatory. However, we do not know this for certain. It is also possible that her statements only reflected the general attitude of the Catholic Church in Germany in the early 1800's and that not necessarily all of her visions were from God or that she could have misinterpreted some of them. I think we can safely say, however, that at the very least, her statements about Protestants in Purgatory must have reflected a widespread view, if not the dominant view, of the Catholic Church in Germany in the early 1800's. Whether or not we can go so far as to say that such a tolerant view was reflective of the Vatican's position of the early 1800's, I do not think we can say, as I know of no Papal teachings from said time period that deal with salvation.

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes, you quoted the correct Papal Bull. The other two Papal Bulls are fairly strong, but they pale in comparison to the above. Nevertheless, in all fairness, it should be pointed out that the Church now believes that since it has been so many centuries since both Eastern Orthodox and Protestants have broken from Holy Mother Church, that "invincible ignorance" could save some non-Catholic Christians, as current day Protestants and Eastern Orthodox are now many generations removed from the respective breaks from the Church.

invincible ignorance would only cover people who are unable to think about joining the Catholic Church
people so held down by the bonds of hate and ignorance that they are not responsible for what they do
this would not be the average Protestant or EO

 

[ebia]

invincible ignorance would only cover people who are unable to think about joining the Catholic Church
people so held down by the bonds of hate and ignorance that they are not responsible for what they do
this would not be the average Protestant or EO

Then your understanding would seem to be much more exclusive than that found in the Catechism and Vatican II.

 

[JohntheTheologian]

invincible ignorance would only cover people who are unable to think about joining the Catholic Church
people so held down by the bonds of hate and ignorance that they are not responsible for what they do
this would not be the average Protestant or EO

So people full of hate and ignorance may enter the kingdom of heaven, but the wrong kind of Christian can't?

 

[Basil the Great]

Then your understanding would seem to be much more exclusive than that found in the Catechism and Vatican II.

I have seen a wide difference of opinoin among Catholics when it comes to describing "invincible ignorance", as it applies to Protestants and Eastern Orthodox. Some seem to apply it in a narrow manner and others in a broad manner.

 

[Rhamiel]

Then your understanding would seem to be much more exclusive than that found in the Catechism and Vatican II.

So people full of hate and ignorance may enter the kingdom of heaven, but the wrong kind of Christian can't?

But Christ made the Church
if someone has full use of their falculties and decides NOT to be part of Christs Church
if someone has the ability to be part of the Church and decide not to
then how can we say anything but "this person wants hell and damnation"

 

[ebia]

But Christ made the Church
if someone has full use of their falculties and decides NOT to be part of Christs Church
if someone has the ability to be part of the Church and decide not to
then how can we say anything but "this person wants hell and damnation"

I'm just observing that your reasoning seems to be very significantly more exclusive than the official teaching in Vatican II and the Catechism.

(Note the following is not put as an argument against the Catholic Church but as an example of where someone [me] sits in relation to what is being discussed.)

For my own part I can see God's work going on in the Catholic Church, but also in the wider church. If I thought the Catholic Church was precisely what it claims to be then I would join it, but I don't and I find, so far as I can discern, God calling me to where I am. That is worshiping and promoting the gospel and Kingdom of God within an Anglican parish and a Catholic school. If that amounts to "want[ing] hell and damnation" then ...

 

[Andrew Ryan]

Call me "ultra-traditionalist," but these are some more quotes I found:

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons"-St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1.

"Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church.

"Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword...but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 61[4]:4.

"When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, ibid., 69[70]:2.

"Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you” [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, ibid., 73[71]:11.

"Outside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, Treatise on Rebaptism.

"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation...Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject."-Lactantius, Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13.

"Just as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him."-St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6].

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person...For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon Magus, even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]."-St. Augustine, ibid., 4:21[28].

"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."-St. Augustine, ibid., 141:5.

"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church."-St. Fulgentius of Ruspe, The Rule of Faith 43.

I don't know, these seems fairly explicit.

 

[St_Barnabus]

I'm just observing that your reasoning seems to be very significantly more exclusive than the official teaching in Vatican II and the Catechism.

Qoheleth has been ill-formed in his catechesis concerning these truths of our faith, and the sad part is that he believes his error is true. Maybe if he stays with this thread and does some deeper studies into Church teachings, he will open his heart more fully to Divine Mercy.

I pray that those outside our faith who happen on threads like this will have the good sense to discount some of the poor teachings of our less informed Catholics. There is always a higher source of truth to learn from. I'm really happy to see that you are going to the right sources, Ebia!

I just noted Andrew Ryan's illogical display portrayed as full Catholic theology. How sad. If these efforts to proselytize continue, against OBOB's Statement of Purpose provided earlier, it will have to be reported. These are not questions posed in an effort to learn, but isolated non-papal postings to usurp official and authentic Catholic teachings as set forth in Vatican II and the CCC.

 

[ebia]

Call me "ultra-traditionalist,"

Ultra-traditionalist.

I don't know, these seems fairly explicit.

So does the Catechism, the Vatican II council, the current magisterium. In the other direction.

 

[Rhamiel]

Call me "ultra-traditionalist," but these are some more quotes I found:

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons"-St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1.

"Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church.

"Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword...but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 61[4]:4.

"When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, ibid., 69[70]:2.

"Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you” [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, ibid., 73[71]:11.

"Outside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism."-St. Cyprian of Carthage, Treatise on Rebaptism.

"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation...Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject."-Lactantius, Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13.

"Just as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him."-St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6].

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person...For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon Magus, even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]."-St. Augustine, ibid., 4:21[28].

"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."-St. Augustine, ibid., 141:5.

"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church."-St. Fulgentius of Ruspe, The Rule of Faith 43.

I don't know, these seems fairly explicit.

as stated before, these are differant times, the idea that schism has been so long standing, that more mercy should be shown because of the longstanding heresies that have so many souls trapped in them

Qoheleth has been ill-formed in his catechesis concerning these truths of our faith, and the sad part is that he believes his error is true. Maybe if he stays with this thread and does some deeper studies into Church teachings, he will open his heart more fully to Divine Mercy.

I pray that those outside our faith who happen on threads like this will have the good sense to discount some of the poor teachings of our less informed Catholics. There is always a higher source of truth to learn from. I'm really happy to see that you are going to the right sources, Ebia!

I just noted Andrew Ryan's illogical display portrayed as Catholic theology. How sad. If these efforts to proselytize continue, against OBOB's Statement of Purpose provided earlier, it will have to be reported.

going right to the source? is not Andrew Ryan also quoting Popes and councils? and the Saints of old

how am i mistaken?
I try to be humble, this is not a sarcastic question, I hope we can learn from eachother

 

[Andrew Ryan]

I just noted Andrew Ryan's illogical display portrayed as full Catholic theology. How sad. If these efforts to proselytize continue, against OBOB's Statement of Purpose provided earlier, it will have to be reported. These are not questions posed in an effort to learn, but isolated non-papal postings to usurp official and authentic Catholic teachings as set forth in Vatican II and the CCC.

How about you step off the high horse for half a second. I posted quotes because I am inclined to believe this doctrine and I believe I have stated I am largely unaware of the whole new VCII teachings on the matter and how they may interpret these quotes, so you can stop with all the hoity toity nonsense right here. These are quotes by Popes, Church Fathers, Saints and so forth, there words should carry some weight. Further, I posted them before responding to other posts in which I was going to pose some questions in relation to said quotes. Really, I just think your post is offensive and I don't understand why you're calling out other members saying we're "in error," and all of this. Ridiculous.

 

[St_Barnabus]

going right to the source? is not Andrew Ryan also quoting Popes and councils? and the Saints of old

how am i mistaken?
I try to be humble, this is not a sarcastic question, I hope we can learn from each other

The Church did not stop Her development in ancient times, Rhamiel, but continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit into the fullness of truth. We cannot pull up first century documents and apply them to God's children in the 21st century.

For instance, there was no need to issue a document such as Humanae Vitae in these early centuries because artificial birth control methods were unknown to man. Advancements in medicine and technology have required the Church to discern and promulgate God's truth in present civilizations. It is always ongoing development. That is why those who reject the teachings of the last Council are not receiving the fullness of truth, but are frozen in a time capsule, whether through lack of knowledge or willful pride.

Truly, I am bone-weary of arguing. It is not my job to educate others; that belongs to the Church, the source of all truth. I have presented earlier in this thread, as has Ebia, the teaching excerpts of Vatican II found in the Catechism. If anyone REALLY is searching for truth, we need only listen carefully to today's gospel through which God speaks to us today. John 4:21-24

"Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."

 

[St_Barnabus]

How about you step off the high horse for half a second. I posted quotes because I am inclined to believe this doctrine and I believe I have stated I am largely unaware of the whole new VCII teachings on the matter and how they may interpret these quotes, so you can stop with all the hoity toity nonsense right here.

Of course you are inclined to believe it. Otherwise, why would you post it? That doesn't make it right.

Really, I just think your post is offensive and I don't understand why you're calling out other members saying we're "in error," and all of this. Ridiculous.

Should I have said your teaching is current truth as the Church understands it now? No, certainly not. And being in error is not a bad thing if you are able to see it and correct it. That doesn't make you a bad person. There is no need to take offense, which signifies a bit of attachment to one's own opinion, yes?

If you truly love the Church, the Bride of Christ, the dispenser of Divine Truth by God's ordinance, you would strive to learn all that you can of these teachings and keep an open heart when others try to light the path for you.

 

[St_Barnabus]

going right to the source? is not Andrew Ryan also quoting Popes and councils? and the Saints of old

No, Rhamiel. None of these quotes came from a pope or a council. They were saints and bishops, true, but they did not have the "keys of Peter" or full teaching authority. There's a very good scripture that may be helpful from Matthew's gospel: "Therefore every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is a householder, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old."

We are asked in faith to assent also to teachings newly promulgated that instruct us more fully as to the meaning of things old. Jesus reminds us that He did not come to abolish the old, but to fulfill it. IOW, truth is ongoing.

I pray this helps you. Good night.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

No, Rhamiel. None of these quotes came from a pope or a council.

I believe both I and StThomasMoore posted quotes from various Popes, ex cathedra in the case of Pope Eugene IV, so why do you say this?

Edit:

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."-Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."-Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."-Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

There is no need to take offense, which signifies a bit of attachment to one's own opinion, yes?

What's offensive is, I have made no formal argument (as of yet, I am currently researching this and gathering my thoughts) and yet, I am being called illogical and you even said, if I persist (in both false and outrageous accusations against me mind you), I will be reported. That's what is offensive and annoying considering I am merely trying to learn, discuss and so on. I have made no formal argument (yet) and was just posting quotes from Church Fathers, Saints, Popes (including Papal Bulls) and so forth. How is this something worthy of reporting? In any way, shape or form? I am not proselytizing or anything. Nor do I define myself as a "ultra-traditionalist," which I think is a silly term to use here anyway. I don't see why the "ultra," part is necessary.