Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus

[benedictaoo]

I almost missed this in your post, Bene. With Cornelius and his family, there was no such thing as being born again first, for he had not accepted "being born again" at the moment when Peter was speaking. Yet the Spirit came upon them ... anyway! My guess is that God saw their hearts which were probably filled with desire (another form of baptism) for the faith Peter was preaching, and He poured out His Spirit upon them without their asking for it. This was helpful for Peter, who realized finally the true meaning of the vision.

We'll have to remember this whenever a non-catholic attempts to say that "born again" comes first. God has so many ways of trumping our finite minds. Praise and glory to Him!

Well that's the Calvinists argument- the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you have no choice in it- God just picks you and that is regeneration, not baptism.

I understand God revealed himself much like he revealed himself to the Jews, to the Gentiles in the early days... in order to spread the faith, build the Church and God can chose who ever he wants to open their hearts up but that does not mean this is the normal way he does it.

and this is what is the Charismatic movement properly understood today. God can choose to do these seemingly arbitrary things today, becuase we are pretty lost now days, in order to evangelise and build the Church up again.

what's important is, once the church was under way, the means of salvation was the Catholic Church and God's sacraments. Yeah, I'm all for a renewal like the early Church. and the Holy Spirit is working and on the move much like He was in the early Church.

 

[St_Barnabus]

. disregard

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

But its not an institutional church and it never was. Its the TRUE Divine institution who is run by men (who else is going to run it while Jesus is with God?) who did bad things and this has been since day one.

No one says other ppl can't practice a true faith outside the Catholic Church and love the Lord because they can... but if you were born a Catholic and you know this is the Church historically and objectively, that is Christ's own then you can't walk away with out answering for it. And you surly will answer for leading others away from it. (that is not to imply you are doing that).

However, and this is the crucial critical part so read carefully everyone, for some ppl who were/are hurt that deeply and its legitimate and valid and real and they were seriously wronged by the men of the Church, they may have developed a bias they may not be able to over come which then might not be their fault and again, only God knows if their bias can't be over come. We just can not judge.

So as usual, it boils down to your heart and the things in life that has shaped its decisions and circumstances. and we can't even judge ourselves let alone someone else.

But going around and saying all these other faiths are just as good and we have an option to choose and it doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah is not correct. We really don't have the option to choose. It may be something that can't be helped for a individual but its not something all of us or anyone of us can choose.

but if you were born a Catholic and you know this is the Church historically and objectively, that is Christ's own then you can't walk away with out answering for it. And you surly will answer for leading others away from it. (that is not to imply you are doing that).

But I can honestly say for myself, a born and raised Catholic, that I have doubts that this is true. I can acquiesce out of fear, but I don't feel that Christ calls us to live as such. I also feel with an honest heart, that the Catholic, "Institutional" church has become horribly corrupt.

I can pretend to say other wise, but internally I feel it to be true. So for those who say that being born Catholic somehow locks one in to knowing the truth,. No matter how hard I try or pretend, I inherently feel this is untrue.

 

[benedictaoo]

But I can honestly say for myself, a born and raised Catholic, that I have doubts that this is true. I can acquiesce out of fear, but I don't feel that Christ calls us to live as such. I also feel with an honest heart, that the Catholic, "Institutional" church has become horribly corrupt.

I can pretend to say other wise, but internally I feel it to be true. So for those who say that being born Catholic somehow locks one in to knowing the truth,. No matter how hard I try or pretend, I inherently feel this is untrue.

I agree that it always been corrupt in certain pockets through the ages. and its not just happening now. I do not think its corrupt inside and out but there is some corruption, no two ways about it.

But that is not what makes her untrue. It just makes her run by jerks sometimes.

The Church is true, its real and it is what it is... the good will triumph over the bad, aways had, always will.

But I get that you may be so hurt by the things you have seen and I can only assume this hurt is what the Church was trying to protect ppl from. I would LIKE to think they did have a good motive somewhere in there.

anyway, I get that you may be so hurt you can't believe this is God's Church because who could do such things? and that is a matter for you and God to work out, not any of us.

 

[Colin]

This is a serious problem .

Mention the Catholic Church to non-members and the responses are almost unanimously negative . Out come comments about the sex abuse scandal , the ways it was initially handled etc. And it isn't going away . Only last week the late rector of the college I attended is under investigation by the diocese's safeguarding commission after many allegations were brought to light .

One journalist reported that this crisis facing the Catholic Church is the most serious since the Reformation .

A bishop in England said that the Church in Ireland had been holed beneath the water-line .

It's bad and will effect the Church throughout this century .

The subject is so delicate and repulsive , and is just what the anti-Church media want , and they won't let it rest .

Prepare for rough seas ahead for a long while .