Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus

[Searching_for_Christ]

Outside the Church there is no salvation

At another forum I attend these discussion are not allowed for some reason So what say you?

 

[Davidnic]

Indeed, but although we know where the visible Church is we do not know where the invisible one is. So although we can have great hope for those in visible communion we can not say what God does for those who seek Him but are not in visible union through no fault of their own.

 

[St_Barnabus]

It may have been disallowed due to being a 'hot button' topic that gets out of hand causing a heavy work load for the moderator. Some people are generally adamant about salvation being exclusively rigoristic.

Why do you ask?

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I ask because in all honesty I have only seen most Catholics kinda dodge the question. Plus it seems like a fun convo to watch and read. *shrugs*

 

[Memento Mori]

I say yes. The Church is the ark of salvation, like Noah's ark. There's no salvation outside of the ark.

 

[Basil the Great]

Can your topic be discussed in this forum? Well, that probably that depends upon whether one interprets this ancient doctrine in accordance with Vatican II or not. This board appears to be reserved for discussions that do NOT conflict with the current Magisterium. A few Catholic posters here have expressed the belief that the current Magisterium has interpreted some teachings in a way that conflicts with "the whole of the Magisterium", to use the phrase initiated by others. As a guest in this forum and a non-Catholic, rarely, but once in a while, I must be very careful how I respond to certain threads and if there is any thread where I must tread lightly, it is an EENS thread.

Two or three years ago I spent six months and probably 300-500 hours studying the EENS salvation doctrine. I read just about everything I could on the subject - many different Catholic Catechism versions, quotes from saints and Church Fathers, the three infallible Papal Bulls from the Middle Ages, etc. There is no other subject in Christianity or in Catholicism that I find more interesting and I dare say, since this subject involves the salvation of souls, it is potentially the most important topic on any Christian Forums board.

 

[St_Barnabus]

Plus it seems like a fun convo to watch and read. *shrugs*

I hope you're not anticipating a fun-filled session watching the fur fly. It is too serious a topic to post for jest.

And Basil is correct about this forum's requirement to post in accordance with Church teachings. We have members who will report disruptive nonsense, especially since a thread was initiated just a couple weeks ago about this problem.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I hope you're not anticipating a fun-filled session watching the fur fly. It is too serious a topic to post for jest.

And Basil is correct about this forum's requirement to post in accordance with Church teachings. We have members who will report disruptive nonsense, especially since a thread was initiated just a couple weeks ago about this problem.

I don't pay much attention to the threads that go on in this forum, also it wasn't posted in "jest" each thread I make in this forum, is always a learning opportunity for me, and perhaps for others as well.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

I am unaware of this topic being "disallowed," or being a "hot button," topic but I am inclined to say yes, I do believe in this.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."-Pope Eugene IV.

"It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship."-Pope Boniface I.

"Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."-St. Gregory the Great.

"I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved."-Pope Sylvester II.

Admittedly, I am no scholar but, as previously stated, I am inclined to believe this.

Edit: I am ready to dive head first into this and again, I am unaware of VCII possibly disagreeing with the doctrine.

 

[Rhamiel]

this should be fun

 

[Andrew Ryan]

this should be fun

You people make it sound so ominous.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

You people make it sound so ominous.

Their protestant kids gonna cause some trouble sense is tingling

but in all seriousness, I aint out to cause a problem, but its an interesting thing I would like to see discussed.

 

[Basil the Great]

I do not believe that the Christian Forums Administrative staff will allow a thorough discussion of the EENS salvation doctrine for at least two reasons. One reason is that a complete discussion of said doctrine might cause hard feelings for Eastern Orthodox and Protestant forum members who would happen upon such a thread. However, the possibly more important reason is that again, a complete discussion, could split the OBOB members into two camps: (1) the vast majority who accept the Vatican II salvation teaching that Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians have the possibility of attaining salvation, if they are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church's claim that it is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind and that Jesus wants all Christians to be in union with Peter and his successors and (2) the minority who are Ultra-Traditionalists/Conservatives, who do NOT accept the Vatican II teaching that addresses the possibility of salvation for non-Catholic Christians, as well as Jews, Muslims and others. Instead, the Ultra-Traditionalists choose a literal interpretation of the three infallible Papal Bulls from the Middle Ages and they believe that Vatican II is not in agreement with "the whole of the Church's Magisterium", as it relates to the salvation doctrine.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

I hope we can have this discussion because I am highly interested and am fully willingly to participate in said discussion. I also think OBOB regulars can be mature enough to talk about this in a civil matter and I don't think it would divide us up into camps. Sure, we may disagree (we often do) but through discussion perhaps all of us can learn a thing or two. I certainly hope to, which is why I hope we are able to talk about this. Further, it's not like some Protestant members here wouldn't say the same regarding Catholics and I think some may not even consider us Christians at all or consider our Pope to be the anti-Christ and many other absurd things. Which is to say, if they can have the freedom to do this, then why can we not have the freedom to discuss Catholic doctrine/teaching within our own subforum? I mean, really.

Let's have it, have at you.

 

[Basil the Great]

Andrew - For myself, I would love to see the discussion, but I do not see it happening. It is too bad that the CF Administrative Staff could not just place a post here now, stating that since this subject deals with salvation and therefore could be of extreme importance to all Christians, a discussion will be allowed, but only as long as things do not get out of control and that respect and charity must be shown to all posters.

 

[ebia]

I am unaware of this topic being "disallowed," or being a "hot button," topic but I am inclined to say yes, I do believe in this.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."-Pope Eugene IV.

"It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship."-Pope Boniface I.

"Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."-St. Gregory the Great.

"I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved."-Pope Sylvester II.

Admittedly, I am no scholar but, as previously stated, I am inclined to believe this.

Edit: I am ready to dive head first into this and again, I am unaware of VCII possibly disagreeing with the doctrine.

"It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation . For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

 

[Andrew Ryan]

"It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation . For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

This is from? Can you cite the source of this quote?

 

[Basil the Great]

Quite frankly, while many here might be hesitant to see a thorough discussion of the EENS salvation doctrine, based upon my voluminous research into the subject, I think that a very detailed discussion of EENS would get a few CF Protestant posters seriously thinking about the possibility that their salvation might depend upon converting and becoming a member of either the RCC or the EO Church.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

Quite frankly, while many here might be hesitant to see a thorough discussion of the EENS salvation doctrine, based upon my voluminous research into the subject, I think that a very detailed discussion of EENS would get a few CF Protestant posters seriously thinking about the possibility that their salvation might depend upon converting and becoming a member of either the RCC or the EO Church.

Which would be a very good thing!

 

[Basil the Great]

Which would be a very good thing!

However, if the CF Administrative staff accept my thesis, then that might be a third reason for them to kill the thread, as the rumor has it that most of the CF Administrative staff are Protestants. If this would be the real reason to kill the thread though, it would be a very sad day indeed.