Extinctions not asteroid after all, and dino protein real after all...

[LifeToTheFullest!]

In a sense, dad is correct (although not for resons that he understands), there is not much evidence for what happened ten seconds before Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago.

Dad, you are a blathering madman. I truly wonder if you are a poe, or simply incapable of understanding and having resonable discussions. This is why no one takes the time or effort to explain things to you. You poop all over it.

In any case, I have marginalized you, and you are nothing more than an oddity in entertainment for me.

 

[dad]

In a sense, dad is correct (although not for resons that he understands), there is not much evidence for what happened ten seconds before Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago.

Dad, you are a blathering madman. I truly wonder if you are a poe, or simply incapable of understanding and having resonable discussions. This is why no one takes the time or effort to explain things to you. You poop all over it.

In any case, I have marginalized you, and you are nothing more than an oddity in entertainment for me.

Defeating the argument of someone us not a failure on my part to understand anything. I have no idea why you think you 'marginalized' anything anywhere. In this thread, anything that was raised was dealt with. I am not talking about the usual, obvious pre imaginary big bang thing. I am talking about all of it, up till the dawn of history.

All 'evidence' for the big bang is misread belief based nonsense. The same evidence is for young earth and universe creation. It is your failure to even address the issues, and details and basis for the wild claims that we are looking at here.

I have no need to marginize you at all. And I have already shown that all so called evidence raised can be dealt with, in relation to the big bang. It is the speck that is marginalized.

 

[Thistlethorn]

Defeating the argument of someone us not a failure on my part to understand anything. I have no idea why you think you 'marginalized' anything anywhere. In this thread, anything that was raised was dealt with. I am not talking about the usual, obvious pre imaginary big bang thing. I am talking about all of it, up till the dawn of history.

All 'evidence' for the big bang is misread belief based nonsense. The same evidence is for young earth and universe creation. It is your failure to even address the issues, and details and basis for the wild claims that we are looking at here.

I have no need to marginize you at all. And I have already shown that all so called evidence raised can be dealt with, in relation to the big bang. It is the speck that is marginalized.

Would you mind pointing me to the post were you deal with my questions? If you want, I can repost them.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Defeating the argument of someone us not a failure on my part to understand anything. I have no idea why you think you 'marginalized' anything anywhere. In this thread, anything that was raised was dealt with. I am not talking about the usual, obvious pre imaginary big bang thing. I am talking about all of it, up till the dawn of history.

All 'evidence' for the big bang is misread belief based nonsense. The same evidence is for young earth and universe creation. It is your failure to even address the issues, and details and basis for the wild claims that we are looking at here.

I have no need to marginize you at all. And I have already shown that all so called evidence raised can be dealt with, in relation to the big bang. It is the speck that is marginalized.

dad, I have marginalized you and everything that you post, because you are nonsensical. If you don't accept current theories of mathematics, phycics, gravity, astronomy, geology, evolution, etc., fine. That's your choice. But you fail to realize that it isn't enough to simply 'rail' against current theories, you actually need to come up with a theory that better explains that which we observe.

The crazy thing is, you actually believe in your mind that you have done this! I'm not a psychologist, but I would suppose that you are borderline delusional. As we have not met in person, and all I have to go on is the content of your posts, it remains only supposition on my part.

Until you admit that you are a poe, or aptly demonstrate to me that you're not deluded, or actually bring some unforseen data better explaining current theories, you will be nothing more than an oddity to me.

 

[dad]

I asked you to present evidence for a different state past. Are you able to do that? You did say you had evidence, so why not just present it?

There is no science for any universe fabric in the past. That means your case, is sitting on nothing but sand! So, indeed you are bluffing, referring to evidence that isn't there! In case you forgot, here is your words

The evidence tells us that "states" haven't changed.

No, that is utterly false. So, unless you can prove, or at least solidly evidence the required univerrse state in the past, you have no science case at all!

Let's remember that the spiritual is out of the reach and realm of science. Therefore it simply can't deal in any state of the universe but this physical only. All it's scenarios are based on it. If you want to limit yourself to science, you will have to limit what you know. You will need to limit what you can discover. You will limit yourself to ignorance concerning the past of the bible, and future universe state as well.

Therefore you have painted yourself into a corner. The evidences for God, and the spiritual also future universe, etc are way way way beyond the limits you impose on yourself.

All that remains possible for you to try to do, in that corner, is to support your own claims. And the big bang, and self created life, old ages, etc all require the present fabric of the universe long long ago. That is where you are at. You are in no position to demand evidences you refuse to consider, or acknowledge.

The creation state is beyond your reach in the present state limited science corner.

The Bible isn't empirical evidence as it can't be tested. If you don't know what empirical means, or why it is important that we use empirical evidence, please look it up, as I don't want to waste more of my time than I have to explaining the basics.

OK. I notice this..

"The standard positivist view of empirically acquired information has been that observation, experience, and experiment serve as neutral arbiters between competing theories. However, since the 1960s, Thomas Kuhn [2] has promoted the concept that these methods are influenced by prior beliefs and experiences. Consequently it cannot be expected that two scientists when observing, experiencing, or experimenting on the same event will make the same theory-neutral observations."


Empirical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We also must note that no one has ever observed, experimented in, or experienced the far past state of the universe.

"The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment"


Furthermore, limiting all input, and interpretation of facts and evidences to being..

"dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses" (same link)

is in effect literally ruling out anything but the physical only temporal universe. Precisely as I said! Thanks for that.





The bible, on the winning, wonderful other hand, is tested, and observed, and the record of the observations carefully kept, and passed down. Not only that, but it is loaded with fulfilled prophesies, such as about Jesus, and the virgin birth, etc. Not only that, but it works, proving that there is a force behind it that is testable. Millions of walking experiments affirm to this.

Not really, no. The thing is, dad, that science does work now. Do you deny that science works? My take is that you don't deny it, as that would be pretty stupid. So, you are left with the problem of explaining WHY science works if it's all based on untruth. Let me give you an example:

I deny that science that works has anything whatsoever, in the remotest way, to do with the fables of an alternate creation of man and his universe! That doesn't do anything for anyone, anywhere.

1. We work out theoretically, using evolutionary science, that turning on a certain gene in a certain animal will produce a certain result. This is called "making a prediction".

False. There was evolution it was a part of the created abilities of man and beast in the former state. You may not claim the glory for that one in any way! It was an intregal part of creation.

3. From this we draw the conclusion that the hypothesis we used to make the prediction is correct. To make sure, we run more experiments. If they all turn out the way we predicted, we can move the hypothesis up to theory status. It is now a working model of how reality works.

In no way was the prediction in this case, or any other, for that matter, more than observing the patterns of creation. Any imagining that evolution started anywhere but Eden is baseless dreaming.

It sure isn't a canard. Please explain why science works if it's based on a faulty premise.

Hopefully you are starting to realize it doesn't. Just like gravity works. But that does not mean that gravity in Eden was the same. We never tested it there! Of course it works now, as do all rules of the temporal state. So?

This seems ominous. What is it that you think will happen?

I don't need to think. I read in the bible that the heavens and earth will pass away, and a new heavens will appear. A universe state that will be forever. Time is ticking for this present temporary universe state.

That may be ominous to physical only science, not to believers. We look forward to a new, clean world, and interesting heavens. A universe that we will enjoy forever.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

There is no science for any universe fabric in the past. That means your case, is sitting on nothing but sand! So, indeed you are bluffing, referring to evidence that isn't there! In case you forgot, here is your words

The evidence tells us that "states" haven't changed.

No, that is utterly false. So, unless you can prove, or at least solidly evidence the required univerrse state in the past, you have no science case at all!

Let's remember that the spiritual is out of the reach and realm of science. Therefore it simply can't deal in any state of the universe but this physical only. All it's scenarios are based on it. If you want to limit yourself to science, you will have to limit what you know. You will need to limit what you can discover. You will limit yourself to ignorance concerning the past of the bible, and future universe state as well.

Therefore you have painted yourself into a corner. The evidences for God, and the spiritual also future universe, etc are way way way beyond the limits you impose on yourself.

All that remains possible for you to try to do, in that corner, is to support your own claims. And the big bang, and self created life, old ages, etc all require the present fabric of the universe long long ago. That is where you are at. You are in no position to demand evidences you refuse to consider, or acknowledge.

The creation state is beyond your reach in the present state limited science corner.


OK. I notice this..

"The standard positivist view of empirically acquired information has been that observation, experience, and experiment serve as neutral arbiters between competing theories. However, since the 1960s, Thomas Kuhn [2] has promoted the concept that these methods are influenced by prior beliefs and experiences. Consequently it cannot be expected that two scientists when observing, experiencing, or experimenting on the same event will make the same theory-neutral observations."


Empirical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We also must note that no one has ever observed, experimented in, or experienced the far past state of the universe.

"The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment"


Furthermore, limiting all input, and interpretation of facts and evidences to being..

"dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses" (same link)

is in effect literally ruling out anything but the physical only temporal universe. Precisely as I said! Thanks for that.





The bible, on the winning, wonderful other hand, is tested, and observed, and the record of the observations carefully kept, and passed down. Not only that, but it is loaded with fulfilled prophesies, such as about Jesus, and the virgin birth, etc. Not only that, but it works, proving that there is a force behind it that is testable. Millions of walking experiments affirm to this.




I deny that science that works has anything whatsoever, in the remotest way, to do with the fables of an alternate creation of man and his universe! That doesn't do anything for anyone, anywhere.

False. There was evolution it was a part of the created abilities of man and beast in the former state. You may not claim the glory for that one in any way! It was an intregal part of creation.


In no way was the prediction in this case, or any other, for that matter, more than observing the patterns of creation. Any imagining that evolution started anywhere but Eden is baseless dreaming.




Hopefully you are starting to realize it doesn't. Just like gravity works. But that does not mean that gravity in Eden was the same. We never tested it there! Of course it works now, as do all rules of the temporal state. So?



I don't need to think. I read in the bible that the heavens and earth will pass away, and a new heavens will appear. A universe state that will be forever. Time is ticking for this present temporary universe state.

That may be ominous to physical only science, not to believers. We look forward to a new, clean world, and interesting heavens. A universe that we will enjoy forever.

Emphasis mine.

 

[Gracchus]

... I don't need to think. ...

And that is, no doubt, just as well.

 

[dad]

Empasis mine.

Well, not needing to pretend to think I have the future universe mapped out is a good thing. I do think about many other things, however.

I also think about it when claims are made by so called science concerning the universe in the future. And I think about how they have no knowledge of it whatsoever.

Better to use our brain power constructively! Their yapping on about the unknown future, and burning out the whole universe , and having it go dark, in their dreams is wasted time and energy.

 

[dad]

And that is, no doubt, just as well.

Yes, the context was thinking and guessing what woud happen ominously in the future. I have no need to worry whatsoever about that. Or think up stuff about it, as a fraud might do. The bible contains the map of the future universe, and the center is right here.

I find it interesting that God hovered over the seas in creation week. One would assume He did what He does in other parts of the book. That is, that He had a vehicle. A ship, if you will. One that pre dates our entire universe! Now that's a ship!

Makes science seem so trivial, really. When one thinks about it.

 

[Freodin]

To quote a famous Captain: why does God need a starship?

Or rather: why would you need a vehicle, when there is nothing to go to?

 

[dad]

To quote a famous Captain: why does God need a starship?

Or rather: why would you need a vehicle, when there is nothing to go to?

There was. The earth! He was over the earth, hovering. Why would He "need" a vehicle? Well, why would He use one might be a more appropriate question. He is known to have wheels, you know.

 

[Thistlethorn]

There is no science for any universe fabric in the past. That means your case, is sitting on nothing but sand! So, indeed you are bluffing, referring to evidence that isn't there! In case you forgot, here is your words

No no no, dad, I asked what YOUR evidence was for YOUR assertion. You said you had some of those, so please provide them.

No, that is utterly false. So, unless you can prove, or at least solidly evidence the required univerrse state in the past, you have no science case at all!

Burden of proof fail. YOU need to provide evidence for YOUR assertion. Can you do that now, please?

Blah blah blah blah

I still don't see any evidence what so ever for YOUR assertions. Please provide such evidence. This is getting silly.

OK. I notice this.. blah blah blah

Still no evidence then? Nope.

The bible, on the winning, wonderful other hand, is tested, and observed, and the record of the observations carefully kept, and passed down. Not only that, but it is loaded with fulfilled prophesies, such as about Jesus, and the virgin birth, etc. Not only that, but it works, proving that there is a force behind it that is testable. Millions of walking experiments affirm to this.

Please don't lie. You're not dealing with dunces here. The bible cannot be tested, and the observation is just personal testimony. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The prophesies are laughably poor as well. The ones that might be considered to have come true are either self-fulfilling or educated guesses. Science, on the other hand, CAN make predictions that makes the biblical prophecies pale in comparison.

I deny that science that works has anything whatsoever, in the remotest way, to do with the fables of an alternate creation of man and his universe! That doesn't do anything for anyone, anywhere.

Then explain WHY it works. The science that works is based on the same basic science as that you deny. Why does some science work while you claim other science fails, when it is all based on the same principles? Please explain this.

False. There was evolution it was a part of the created abilities of man and beast in the former state. You may not claim the glory for that one in any way! It was an intregal part of creation.

No, we can actually make such predictions. You should read the link I posted. More so, I've actually been a part of this.

In no way was the prediction in this case, or any other, for that matter, more than observing the patterns of creation. Any imagining that evolution started anywhere but Eden is baseless dreaming.

This tells me you don't know a whole lot about genetics.

Hopefully you are starting to realize it doesn't. Just like gravity works. But that does not mean that gravity in Eden was the same. We never tested it there! Of course it works now, as do all rules of the temporal state. So?

But WHY does it work now if there aren't universal laws governing it? What tells you gravity worked differently in the past? How did it work differently in the past? Do you have any corroborating evidence for gravity working the way you claim it worked in the past?

I don't need to think. I read in the bible that the heavens and earth will pass away, and a new heavens will appear. A universe state that will be forever. Time is ticking for this present temporary universe state.

It's quite obvious that you're not thinking here. If, as you say, you don't need to think, stop posting your drivel on the physical and life sciences board. This is a place were we discuss scientific matters, and, as you have more or less admitted now, what you're talking about isn't science.

That may be ominous to physical only science, not to believers. We look forward to a new, clean world, and interesting heavens. A universe that we will enjoy forever.

Then, as I said to Brinny earlier today, just sit back and enjoy the ride. Surely you won't feel threatened if we poor wibble scientists keep meddling about and discovering stuff that makes your life easier, will you? What does it matter to you what we do? Surely God, when he returns in about *checks watch* very soon, will just rapture you away so that you can enjoy eternity at his side whether us scientists do science the way we always have or not?

If science is so wrong, and God is on his way to set everything right, why are you so filled with hot air? Just kick back and relax. Everything will work out in the end.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

No no no, dad, I asked what YOUR evidence was for YOUR assertion. You said you had some of those, so please provide them.



Burden of proof fail. YOU need to provide evidence for YOUR assertion. Can you do that now, please?



I still don't see any evidence what so ever for YOUR assertions. Please provide such evidence. This is getting silly.




Still no evidence then? Nope.



Please don't lie. You're not dealing with dunces here. The bible cannot be tested, and the observation is just personal testimony. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The prophesies are laughably poor as well. The ones that might be considered to have come true are either self-fulfilling or educated guesses. Science, on the other hand, CAN make predictions that makes the biblical prophecies pale in comparison.



Then explain WHY it works. The science that works is based on the same basic science as that you deny. Why does some science work while you claim other science fails, when it is all based on the same principles? Please explain this.



No, we can actually make such predictions. You should read the link I posted. More so, I've actually been a part of this.



This tells me you don't know a whole lot about genetics.


But WHY does it work now if there aren't universal laws governing it? What tells you gravity worked differently in the past? How did it work differently in the past? Do you have any corroborating evidence for gravity working the way you claim it worked in the past?



It's quite obvious that you're not thinking here. If, as you say, you don't need to think, stop posting your drivel on the physical and life sciences board. This is a place were we discuss scientific matters, and, as you have more or less admitted now, what you're talking about isn't science.



Then, as I said to Brinny earlier today, just sit back and enjoy the ride. Surely you won't feel threatened if we poor wibble scientists keep meddling about and discovering stuff that makes your life easier, will you? What does it matter to you what we do? Surely God, when he returns in about *checks watch* very soon, will just rapture you away so that you can enjoy eternity at his side whether us scientists do science the way we always have or not?

If science is so wrong, and God is on his way to set everything right, why are you so filled with hot air? Just kick back and relax. Everything will work out in the end.

That's because they're mad that he's taking over two thousand years to come back. The natives are restless.

 

[dad]

No no no, dad, I asked what YOUR evidence was for YOUR assertion. You said you had some of those, so please provide them.

No, you wanted empirical evidence. Only I have that, in the form of the observations of early man. As well as the tested word of God.

Burden of proof fail. YOU need to provide evidence for YOUR assertion. Can you do that now, please?

The burden of proof rests on the ones that claim a science case. And the sort of evidences they need, and support, they do not have. It can't cover it. One need not prove anything once we arrive at the dead end of so called science. The venture into the unknown is only possible by those that have the secret keys of the kingdom that God gives in His word to man.

You have insullted that book in trying to dismiss it as possible evidence. You are left on your own, then at the dead end. That is where you are at.

Now, if you disagree, you can prove the same state past! You need that for all claims of science on creation. You want to defend the claims of science that burden is firmly on your shoulders. And in the dead end you will remain, until you carry it.

For the rest of us, as Christians, we do have real clues, and descriptions of the other state! We are not in darkness. Nor at any dead end. Nor is there the slightest burden of proof on our shoulders, to carry the fables of science into some form of reality.

Please don't lie. You're not dealing with dunces here. The bible cannot be tested, and the observation is just personal testimony.

Please try not to deny the already proven, and tried and tested. Just because science can't do the testing!! Misery loves company, I know, but billions have tested it successfully. I have tested it's prophesies. They are good as gold. The calendar is set to Jesus. Nations rise and fall because of Him. Please do not think we are dunces, simply because you have stayed out of the loop.

It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The prophesies are laughably poor as well. The ones that might be considered to have come true are either self-fulfilling or educated guesses. Science, on the other hand, CAN make predictions that makes the biblical prophecies pale in comparison.

That is utter nonsense. I know. I looked into it. Self fulfilling is a ridiculous misconception by the way. For example Jesus told of the traitor among them dipping the bread with Hi. No way that is self fulfilling, He had to know. That is typical of the bible.


As for silly little science, it is like a toddler playing in a sand box. The only things it predicts is how the blocks will stack up, or how fast the sand will fall from it's plastic shovel, etc! They cannot predict the future. Not in any real sense of the word. Sure, they can look at a ball falling and tell how long it takes to hit the ground. They cannot tell what will be long after the boy dies, and long before he existed.

Then explain WHY it works. The science that works is based on the same basic science as that you deny. Why does some science work while you claim other science fails, when it is all based on the same principles? Please explain this.

Easy. Why can we throw a Buzz Lightyear doll out the window on the second floor, and it takes a few moments to hit the ground? That is the sort of thing science can predict. However, ask the doll to fly to Infinity, and beyond, and see what they can't do!! The so called science hucksters and charlatans make claims about infinity and beyond, but are talking out their nose.

No, we can actually make such predictions. You should read the link I posted. More so, I've actually been a part of this.

What link? Part of what? I hope you don't imagine it is extra temporal state related?

This tells me you don't know a whole lot about genetics.

False, at least probably in the way you mean. Evolution NOW is slow. In the different state, it was very very very fast, according to the clues in the bible. The only way you can enforce present rules, Marshall, in the far future, or creation state, is if you send a posse there. Hasn't happened. Therefore you really don't know much about it. Elementary.

But WHY does it work now if there aren't universal laws governing it?

There are! They are the temporal state laws. What, you thought the temporal state was some lawless fluke?? What works now is not the question, or the answer. It is the problem!

What tells you gravity worked differently in the past? How did it work differently in the past? Do you have any corroborating evidence for gravity working the way you claim it worked in the past?

What tells you it worked the same!!? Nothing. I, on the glorious, interesting other hand, have early history to look at. Real men observed stuff. Like spirits. Like long lifespans. And I have the record that was passed down from God to man. (no, science can't prove or disprove it, it is relegated to insignificance in that dept).

But that is for those to explore that decided to come to God, and ask help.

All that is for science is to think the foolishness of man's wisdom is smarter than God.

It's quite obvious that you're not thinking here. If, as you say, you don't need to think, stop posting your drivel on the physical and life sciences board.

Cheap misrepresentation. The context was in relation to what someone was asking about, the temporal state having it's time a tickin! What comes in the future we do not know, and can not know, Only God knows. So think about it all you like, it will do no good. It is beyond you. Try to get the point this time. My patience is limited.

This is a place were we discuss scientific matters, and, as you have more or less admitted now, what you're talking about isn't science.

Again you misunderstand. What so called science is talking about in the future and far past isn't science. That is why the best place to lift their skirts is on a science forum.

Then, as I said to Brinny earlier today, just sit back and enjoy the ride. Surely you won't feel threatened if we poor wibble scientists keep meddling about and discovering stuff that makes your life easier, will you?

They already have man on the verge of being choked, and polluted to death. And blown to hell as well as other goodies. They are no idol for me. They are servants, that have some things that are of use. Is that OK with you?

What does it matter to you what we do? Surely God, when he returns in about *checks watch* very soon, will just rapture you away so that you can enjoy eternity at his side whether us scientists do science the way we always have or not?

What you do? That is not an issue. What you claim is. Learn the difference.

If science is so wrong, and God is on his way to set everything right, why are you so filled with hot air? Just kick back and relax. Everything will work out in the end.

Of course it will. But excuse me if I lift a finger, to point out that the lies being taught as science are disingenuous hot air.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

No, you wanted empirical evidence. Only I have that, in the form of the observations of early man. As well as the tested word of God.


The burden of proof rests on the ones that claim a science case. And the sort of evidences they need, and support, they do not have. It can't cover it. One need not prove anything once we arrive at the dead end of so called science. The venture into the unknown is only possible by those that have the secret keys of the kingdom that God gives in His word to man.

You have insullted that book in trying to dismiss it as possible evidence. You are left on your own, then at the dead end. That is where you are at.

Now, if you disagree, you can prove the same state past! You need that for all claims of science on creation. You want to defend the claims of science that burden is firmly on your shoulders. And in the dead end you will remain, until you carry it.

For the rest of us, as Christians, we do have real clues, and descriptions of the other state! We are not in darkness. Nor at any dead end. Nor is there the slightest burden of proof on our shoulders, to carry the fables of science into some form of reality.


Please try not to deny the already proven, and tried and tested. Just because science can't do the testing!! Misery loves company, I know, but billions have tested it successfully. I have tested it's prophesies. They are good as gold. The calendar is set to Jesus. Nations rise and fall because of Him. Please do not think we are dunces, simply because you have stayed out of the loop.



That is utter nonsense. I know. I looked into it. Self fulfilling is a ridiculous misconception by the way. For example Jesus told of the traitor among them dipping the bread with Hi. No way that is self fulfilling, He had to know. That is typical of the bible.


As for silly little science, it is like a toddler playing in a sand box. The only things it predicts is how the blocks will stack up, or how fast the sand will fall from it's plastic shovel, etc! They cannot predict the future. Not in any real sense of the word. Sure, they can look at a ball falling and tell how long it takes to hit the ground. They cannot tell what will be long after the boy dies, and long before he existed.



Easy. Why can we throw a Buzz Lightyear doll out the window on the second floor, and it takes a few moments to hit the ground? That is the sort of thing science can predict. However, ask the doll to fly to Infinity, and beyond, and see what they can't do!! The so called science hucksters and charlatans make claims about infinity and beyond, but are talking out their nose.



What link? Part of what? I hope you don't imagine it is extra temporal state related?



False, at least probably in the way you mean. Evolution NOW is slow. In the different state, it was very very very fast, according to the clues in the bible. The only way you can enforce present rules, Marshall, in the far future, or creation state, is if you send a posse there. Hasn't happened. Therefore you really don't know much about it. Elementary.


There are! They are the temporal state laws. What, you thought the temporal state was some lawless fluke?? What works now is not the question, or the answer. It is the problem!


What tells you it worked the same!!? Nothing. I, on the glorious, interesting other hand, have early history to look at. Real men observed stuff. Like spirits. Like long lifespans. And I have the record that was passed down from God to man. (no, science can't prove or disprove it, it is relegated to insignificance in that dept).

But that is for those to explore that decided to come to God, and ask help.

All that is for science is to think the foolishness of man's wisdom is smarter than God.



Cheap misrepresentation. The context was in relation to what someone was asking about, the temporal state having it's time a tickin! What comes in the future we do not know, and can not know, Only God knows. So think about it all you like, it will do no good. It is beyond you. Try to get the point this time. My patience is limited.


Again you misunderstand. What so called science is talking about in the future and far past isn't science. That is why the best place to lift their skirts is on a science forum.



They already have man on the verge of being choked, and polluted to death. And blown to hell as well as other goodies. They are no idol for me. They are servants, that have some things that are of use. Is that OK with you?

What you do? That is not an issue. What you claim is. Learn the difference.

Of course it will. But excuse me if I lift a finger, to point out that the lies being taught as science are dangerous hot air.

Poppycock!

You claim that there is only past states sciences that predict early human, time tested, god fashioned universities in all it's time constrained universalities. Show us where the men who made the thing that studies the ineffable bewildered amazement. Helium is in outer space, but it right hear under your nose too. Just open your blinded and deaf eyes as they are an impediment to the ultimate reality of future state wheel dynamices of a time gone by. If bending the map shows us what we know to be untrue, then the timecube is the only thing that exists in the fabric of timespacegod. Even mentalists in their early neanderthal upbringings understood and were in awe. Proof it.

 

[dad]

Poppycock!

You claim that there is only past states sciences that predict early human, time tested, god fashioned universities in all it's time constrained universalities. Show us where the men who made the thing that studies the ineffable bewildered amazement. Helium is in outer space, but it right hear under your nose too. Just open your blinded and deaf eyes as they are an impediment to the ultimate reality of future state wheel dynamices of a time gone by. If bending the map shows us what we know to be untrue, then the timecube is the only thing that exists in the fabric of timespacegod. Even mentalists in their early neanderthal upbringings understood and were in awe. Proof it.

Thanks for clearing up your ideas.

 

[Thistlethorn]

No, you wanted empirical evidence. Only I have that, in the form of the observations of early man. As well as the tested word of God.

Yes, I wanted empirical evidence, and you have yet to provide a single shred of such. Are you going to or not?

The burden of proof rests on the ones that claim a science case.

And that's you, my dear dad. You are the one making a claim that contradicts everything we have learned for the past, oh, 5000 years or so. Would you be so kind as to actually provide some evidence to support your case?

And the sort of evidences they need, and support, they do not have. It can't cover it. One need not prove anything once we arrive at the dead end of so called science. The venture into the unknown is only possible by those that have the secret keys of the kingdom that God gives in His word to man.

Well, you certainly seem to be lacking in evidence. You did say you had some, though, and I don't want to be forced to call you a liar.

You have insullted that book in trying to dismiss it as possible evidence. You are left on your own, then at the dead end. That is where you are at.

No, I'm in the middle of my life, full of enriching experiences. I see what has happened with human progress in the short time I've been around, and I have high hopes for what will happen before I'm gone. I didn't insult the bible. I told the truth about it. Sometimes the truth can hurt, but it's always better to seek the truth than to live a lie.

Now, if you disagree, you can prove the same state past! You need that for all claims of science on creation. You want to defend the claims of science that burden is firmly on your shoulders. And in the dead end you will remain, until you carry it.

Dad, listen to me. I will tell you once more: I want to hear YOUR evidence for YOUR assertions. You said you had some. Now, please provide YOUR evidence for YOUR assertions. All this ducking and waving on your part is getting tiresome. I'm sure your lurkers will want to hear some evidence as well.

For the rest of us, as Christians, we do have real clues, and descriptions of the other state! We are not in darkness. Nor at any dead end. Nor is there the slightest burden of proof on our shoulders, to carry the fables of science into some form of reality.

There is a burden of evidence on YOU, dad. Your wild assertions differ greatly from other Christians. Therefore you need to back them up, not only to me, but also to your brothers and sisters in faith.

Please try not to deny the already proven, and tried and tested. Just because science can't do the testing!! Misery loves company, I know, but billions have tested it successfully. I have tested it's prophesies. They are good as gold. The calendar is set to Jesus. Nations rise and fall because of Him. Please do not think we are dunces, simply because you have stayed out of the loop.

I'm sorry, but that's an outright lie. The bible isn't proven, and it sure isn't tested. It's taken on faith, and faith is not evidence.

That is utter nonsense. I know. I looked into it. Self fulfilling is a ridiculous misconception by the way. For example Jesus told of the traitor among them dipping the bread with Hi. No way that is self fulfilling, He had to know. That is typical of the bible.

So, Jesus knew who among his followers were short on cash? Hardly eye-opening, that. Do you want to have a discussion about all the failed biblical prophecies? In that case we can start a new thread.

As for silly little science, it is like a toddler playing in a sand box. The only things it predicts is how the blocks will stack up, or how fast the sand will fall from it's plastic shovel, etc! They cannot predict the future. Not in any real sense of the word. Sure, they can look at a ball falling and tell how long it takes to hit the ground. They cannot tell what will be long after the boy dies, and long before he existed.

Uhm, dad, predicting how the blocks stack up or how fast the sand falls from the shovel would be predcting the future, based on the understanding of natural laws. You've basically just shot yourself in the foot with this.

Easy. Why can we throw a Buzz Lightyear doll out the window on the second floor, and it takes a few moments to hit the ground? That is the sort of thing science can predict. However, ask the doll to fly to Infinity, and beyond, and see what they can't do!! The so called science hucksters and charlatans make claims about infinity and beyond, but are talking out their nose.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Predicting how the doll will fall would require an understanding of how gravity works. Understanding how gravity works also allows you to make a lot of other predictions, and learn more about the universe around us. I don't understand how you can think this would be a strike against science, despite lacing your post with patronizing language.

What link? Part of what? I hope you don't imagine it is extra temporal state related?

The link about the hen with teeth. Read it.

False, at least probably in the way you mean. Evolution NOW is slow. In the different state, it was very very very fast, according to the clues in the bible. The only way you can enforce present rules, Marshall, in the far future, or creation state, is if you send a posse there. Hasn't happened. Therefore you really don't know much about it. Elementary.

Hardly elementary. The "clues" in the bible require a very distinct interpretation. This interpretation varies from denomination to denomination, although I've never encountered an interpretation as off the walls crazy as yours. My name isn't Marshall, by the way.

There are! They are the temporal state laws. What, you thought the temporal state was some lawless fluke?? What works now is not the question, or the answer. It is the problem!

So WHY do the laws work. The science behind this is based on an understanding of the universe that you claim is false. WHY are scientists able to predict things so well if the basic science is wrong?

What tells you it worked the same!!? Nothing. I, on the glorious, interesting other hand, have early history to look at. Real men observed stuff. Like spirits. Like long lifespans. And I have the record that was passed down from God to man. (no, science can't prove or disprove it, it is relegated to insignificance in that dept).

You have a book. Period. I have scientific evidence that WORKS, and you can't explain why it should work if the science is wrong.

Cheap misrepresentation. The context was in relation to what someone was asking about, the temporal state having it's time a tickin! What comes in the future we do not know, and can not know, Only God knows. So think about it all you like, it will do no good. It is beyond you. Try to get the point this time. My patience is limited.

It's slightly amusing that you speak of patience when I have asked you for evidence in several consequitive posts, and you have yet to provide a single shred of it. Patience is my virtue, apparently.

Again you misunderstand. What so called science is talking about in the future and far past isn't science. That is why the best place to lift their skirts is on a science forum.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to determine what science is and isn't. That's for actual scientists to do. You aren't a scientist.

They already have man on the verge of being choked, and polluted to death. And blown to hell as well as other goodies. They are no idol for me. They are servants, that have some things that are of use. Is that OK with you?

I didn't understand your answer here. Are you feeling threatened by science or aren't you? Simple yes or no answer.

What you do? That is not an issue. What you claim is. Learn the difference.

Why is it an issue for you what I claim? Are you so weak in your faith?

Of course it will. But excuse me if I lift a finger, to point out that the lies being taught as science are disingenuous hot air.

But you aren't pointing that out at all. You are turning people away from the faith with your extremely contrived and, dare I say it, insane ideas. Yes, insane. The people on this forum that have responded to your posts are almost unanimous in their verdict. You don't know what you're talking about, and you are quite clearly insane. This isn't good PR for God. I'm fairly sure that if he exists, he would prefer for you to keep quiet, as you're not helping.

To sum up (for the lurkers), dad has yet to provide a single shred of evidence for his assertions, despite being asked time and time again. Instead, he keeps dodging and ducking, shouting about "so called science" and how it's all lies, damned lies! His case, as it was, isn't that strong. One might call it non-existent.

 

[dad]

Yes, I wanted empirical evidence, and you have yet to provide a single shred of such. Are you going to or not?

There is none for the assumed past state of science, so, if you can try to grasp it this time, the only observations we have are the bible, and history. These agree that a present state could not have been in effect.

Now, have you abandoned any defense of so called science, and the present as the key to the past, and future!!!? Looks like you have, and have resorted to diversionary tactics. Not a sign of a strong case, to say the least. If not, I want empirical evidence of the same state past, and you have yet to provide a single shred of such. Are you going to or not?

It should be clear even to you that you can't. Simply admit it, and move on. Leave the field to those that have something else to get them out of your dead end.

And that's you, my dear dad. You are the one making a claim that contradicts everything we have learned for the past, oh, 5000 years or so. Would you be so kind as to actually provide some evidence to support your case?

The Egyptian, Sumer and bible accounts actually only contradict the claim that this state universe was present on earth. Therefore that is the default. If you want to hold the future hostage, and creation era, with the straight jacket of present laws, you will need to show that they applied. Not assume. That is worthless, and contrary to the empiracal evidence of observations of man!

No, I'm in the middle of my life, full of enriching experiences. I see what has happened with human progress in the short time I've been around, and I have high hopes for what will happen before I'm gone. I didn't insult the bible. I told the truth about it. Sometimes the truth can hurt, but it's always better to seek the truth than to live a lie.

Except that you forgot to back up your charges against it. And how many will take your word alone? Not I. I know better. The bible is the message from God. Yours is a message of delirium.

There is a burden of evidence on YOU, dad. Your wild assertions differ greatly from other Christians. Therefore you need to back them up, not only to me, but also to your brothers and sisters in faith.

I have a great and solid bible case. Feel free to try to mount a challenge to it if you can, All believers in the bible know that we are living in a temporary state. This is news??

I'm sorry, but that's an outright lie. The bible isn't proven, and it sure isn't tested. It's taken on faith, and faith is not evidence.

False. It is proven, to those that come to God, claiming otherwise is a lie, and an assertion based solely on ignorance.

So, Jesus knew who among his followers were short on cash? Hardly eye-opening, that. Do you want to have a discussion about all the failed biblical prophecies? In that case we can start a new thread.

What does cash have to do with who dipped bread with Him, at a particular moment in time?? Focus.

Uhm, dad, predicting how the blocks stack up or how fast the sand falls from the shovel would be predcting the future, based on the understanding of natural laws. You've basically just shot yourself in the foot with this.

Well, um, yes, of course, the short term future, and the prediction is only as good if the temporary state stays in effect. They don't know how long that will be. Heck they don't even know what state we're in, really, let alone were in!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Predicting how the doll will fall would require an understanding of how gravity works. Understanding how gravity works also allows you to make a lot of other predictions, and learn more about the universe around us. I don't understand how you can think this would be a strike against science, despite lacing your post with patronizing language.

Oh, easy, there is no gravity as we know it in the new heavens. Any predictions based on present forces and laws are restrained to this state!

The link about the hen with teeth. Read it.

Why? I believe in evolution. Was there some other point?

Hardly elementary. The "clues" in the bible require a very distinct interpretation. This interpretation varies from denomination to denomination, although I've never encountered an interpretation as off the walls crazy as yours. My name isn't Marshall, by the way.

No, and your posse ain't going to infinity and beyond either. Glad we cleared that up.
I prefer to look at absolutes in knowledge, and bible. For esample, the fact that this heavesns will pass away. Ask several of these denominations if they agree. All will, if they are Christians. (and have half a clue what the bible says)

So WHY do the laws work. The science behind this is based on an understanding of the universe that you claim is false. WHY are scientists able to predict things so well if the basic science is wrong?

They only operate in a limited range, where the predictions work. They will not work in the new state, they did not, I contend, work in the creates state. Why would laws governing the spirits under the earth work? Because God set it up. We need to have rules even in this state.

You have a book. Period. I have scientific evidence that WORKS, and you can't explain why it should work if the science is wrong.

No, actually I have the same scientific evidence that works! And the book! All I leave in the dirt, are the baseless claims of so called science.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to determine what science is and isn't. That's for actual scientists to do. You aren't a scientist.

I am not a baker either, but I get to say what bread is. Science is about actual knowledge, and testing, and observations, and the ability to repeat, rather than the ability to devise cunning fables of a never never past dream world, based on nothing.

But you aren't pointing that out at all. You are turning people away from the faith with your extremely contrived and, dare I say it, insane ideas. Yes, insane. The people on this forum that have responded to your posts are almost unanimous in their verdict. You don't know what you're talking about, and you are quite clearly insane. This isn't good PR for God. I'm fairly sure that if he exists, he would prefer for you to keep quiet, as you're not helping.

False. I expose insane ideas, and don't much care if the already decided think it is wonderful.

To sum up (for the lurkers), dad has yet to provide a single shred of evidence for his assertions, despite being asked time and time again. Instead, he keeps dodging and ducking, shouting about "so called science" and how it's all lies, damned lies! His case, as it was, isn't that strong. One might call it non-existent.

To sum up, you call people insane with different ideas, insult the bible, and have no case whatsoever, and a limited grasp of what even is being discussed. You were told that the evidence man has agrees with a different past, and that your precious so called science can't go there. Deal with it. It isn't about what you like or not, it is about what is known about the early universe. And looking at the actual basis of what that knowledge, if any, is based on.

Cut the drama, and smoke and mirrors, and desperate attempts at mud slinging, and escaping suppotring your claims.

 

[Thistlethorn]

There is none for the assumed past state of science, so, if you can try to grasp it this time, the only observations we have are the bible, and history. These agree that a present state could not have been in effect.

Is this an answer? You are saying that your evidence is history and the bible, am I correct? Ok, were in written history do we find this different state documented? If you are going to say "in the bible" you might as well have left the "history" part out. So, let's focus on the bible. Where in the bible is this different state past described? What passage describes it?

Now, have you abandoned any defense of so called science, and the present as the key to the past, and future!!!? Looks like you have, and have resorted to diversionary tactics. Not a sign of a strong case, to say the least. If not, I want empirical evidence of the same state past, and you have yet to provide a single shred of such. Are you going to or not?

Pearls before swine, dad. I've given evidence. Science is the evidence. That science works. You have still not explained why science works if it's based on a faulty premise.

It should be clear even to you that you can't. Simply admit it, and move on. Leave the field to those that have something else to get them out of your dead end.

I have given empirical evidence. You haven't.

The Egyptian, Sumer and bible accounts actually only contradict the claim that this state universe was present on earth. Therefore that is the default. If you want to hold the future hostage, and creation era, with the straight jacket of present laws, you will need to show that they applied. Not assume. That is worthless, and contrary to the empiracal evidence of observations of man!

Where in the Sumerian, Egyptian or bible accounts is this different state mentioned or described? Quote the passage.

Except that you forgot to back up your charges against it. And how many will take your word alone? Not I. I know better. The bible is the message from God. Yours is a message of delirium.

I have backed up my claim with empirical evidence. You have not.

I have a great and solid bible case. Feel free to try to mount a challenge to it if you can, All believers in the bible know that we are living in a temporary state. This is news??

Present your case complete with evidence. You haven't yet. What in the bible supports your claim? Where in the bible is your different state mentioned. Where in the rest of our historical documents is this state mentioned? All you have done so far is cry about how much of a lie science is, but you haven't presented a solid piece of evidence supporting your case yet. It's starting to look like you are making it all up, dad.

False. It is proven, to those that come to God, claiming otherwise is a lie, and an assertion based solely on ignorance.

False. You don't know what "proven" means.

What does cash have to do with who dipped bread with Him, at a particular moment in time?? Focus.

Don't change the subject then. Jesus knew who would betray him. He did so because he was smarter than you. He knew who had an economical reason to betray him. Ever read Sherlock Holmes?

Well, um, yes, of course, the short term future, and the prediction is only as good if the temporary state stays in effect. They don't know how long that will be. Heck they don't even know what state we're in, really, let alone were in!

Present your evidence. You haven't thus far.

Oh, easy, there is no gravity as we know it in the new heavens. Any predictions based on present forces and laws are restrained to this state!

Present your evidence for this assertion.

Why? I believe in evolution. Was there some other point?

If you had read it, and tried to keep up in the conversation we're having, you would know what it is about. I'm not about to hold your hand through this. You are a grown man. Try to learn how to act in the company of other grown-ups.

No, and your posse ain't going to infinity and beyond either. Glad we cleared that up.

My... posse? What are you talking about, dad? Are you still talking to me, or are you hearing voices?

I prefer to look at absolutes in knowledge, and bible. For esample, the fact that this heavesns will pass away. Ask several of these denominations if they agree. All will, if they are Christians. (and have half a clue what the bible says)

These aren't absolutes in knowledge. These are absolutes in faith. Not the same thing.

They only operate in a limited range, where the predictions work. They will not work in the new state, they did not, I contend, work in the creates state. Why would laws governing the spirits under the earth work? Because God set it up. We need to have rules even in this state.

Present your evidence for this assertion.

No, actually I have the same scientific evidence that works! And the book! All I leave in the dirt, are the baseless claims of so called science.

Nope. You deny the evidence and rely solely on faith. That's irrational. No doubt you will now lie and claim that you don't deny evidence.

I am not a baker either, but I get to say what bread is.

Nope, you don't. There are accepted definitions for what bread is. What you think it is has no bearing on that definition. Same with science.

Science is about actual knowledge, and testing, and observations, and the ability to repeat, rather than the ability to devise cunning fables of a never never past dream world, based on nothing.

This is pretty amusing. You basically shot down your entire ludicrous assertion with this sentence. Congratulations!

False. I expose insane ideas, and don't much care if the already decided think it is wonderful.

False. You are insane, and you don't care about anything or anyone but yourself, and you love to listen to yourself ramble incoherently. That's the only explanation I can see for your behaviour.

To sum up, you call people insane

It's pretty evident for anyone with more than two braincells that you are either insane or the world's greatest troll. As you are a poor speller, I don't think you're a troll.

insult the bible,

Nope, I told the truth about the bible. It's a book. A good book, but a book nonetheless. It has a lot of prophecies, most of them unfulfilled, and a lot of people think we should live our lives according to what's in the book. That's the truth about the bible.

and have no case whatsoever, and a limited grasp of what even is being discussed.

You projecting your flaws onto me has no bearing on reality, dad.

You were told that the evidence man has agrees with a different past, and that your precious so called science can't go there.

And I have continuously asked what those evidences are. You haven't presented them, so I can only assume that they only exist in your head.

Deal with it.

You haven't presented any evidence. Deal with it!

It isn't about what you like or not, it is about what is known about the early universe.

Thankfully for me, what is known about the early universe agrees with my view, not yours.

And looking at the actual basis of what that knowledge, if any, is based on.

Again, this is what I am doing. You aren't.

Cut the drama, and smoke and mirrors, and desperate attempts at mud slinging, and escaping suppotring your claims.

Yes, please take your own advice here, dad. I know you were trying to project it onto me, but listen to yourself here. It's the only sensible thing you've said in this thread.

 

[dad]

Is this an answer? You are saying that your evidence is history and the bible, am I correct?

As well as all the evidence that science has, but interprets it through the belief basede filter, where it concerns the past.

Ok, were in written history do we find this different state documented? If you are going to say "in the bible" you might as well have left the "history" part out. So, let's focus on the bible. Where in the bible is this different state past described? What passage describes it?

No, actually, the bible is the most trusted, and reliable record on earth. It's history outreaches all others. Your opinions do not change history, or the prophets, or early Christians, etc.

The flood legends are all around the world. The records of actual spirit beings among men are in Sumer, and Egypt. Sumer also refers to long lifespans.

The bible

Pearls before swine, dad. I've given evidence. Science is the evidence.

Swine before pearls in this case. Science is not the evidence, it is the little messenger boy that tries to read the message!

That science works. You have still not explained why science works if it's based on a faulty premise.

yes I have. You have not explained whether it worked for Adam, or Noah. Or whether it will work in heaven. Of course the silly thing works here. It is temporal state knowledge. It is only the application of that to the unknown that is in question!

I have given empirical evidence. You haven't.

Science never observed a thing before it existed, and it was born in this state, and will die here. I have given the observations of God and man.

Where in the Sumerian, Egyptian or bible accounts is this different state mentioned or described? Quote the passage.

They never thought of it as different, any more than we think of this state as different. It was nature to them. The records simply tell of major differences, that cannot be reconciled with the universe fabric, and world of today. The bible also, such as creation week, and the flood. What, you think the YECs did such a great job of expplaining the flood, that it had to happen in this state?

Present your case complete with evidence. You haven't yet. What in the bible supports your claim? Where in the bible is your different state mentioned. Where in the rest of our historical documents is this state mentioned? All you have done so far is cry about how much of a lie science is, but you haven't presented a solid piece of evidence supporting your case yet. It's starting to look like you are making it all up, dad.

First of all, slow down. The new heaven state is not on trial here. The differences between there and here and now are many, and stark! And, after all the future is the key to the past, too. At least in the bible. The simplest way to understand it is to realize that this universe will pass away, this heavens. And earth as it is too, of course. The paradise of God in the future is quite similar to the one in the past.

The focus here is looking at present based science, and how far it can go, and can be shown to go. Once you realize it can't go anywhere, we can proceed with more details of the different state, and the clues, and references to it.

Don't change the subject then. Jesus knew who would betray him. He did so because he was smarter than you. He knew who had an economical reason to betray him. Ever read Sherlock Holmes?

Not sure what you are claiming. They all shared poverty, and followed Jesus. No one had more reason to need more money in the bible, from the apostles. That is in your head.

And even if someone "needed" cash (a bizarre notion) Jesus would not know that he would happen to be the one that would soon dip his food with Him. Nor that the price would be 30 pieces of silver, as prophesied, nor that it would end up in the potters field, etc etc etc. Nor that one stone would not be left upon another in the temple, nor that Herod would be a madman, and His family would have to flee to Egypt, etc etc etc.

My... posse? What are you talking about, dad? Are you still talking to me, or are you hearing voices?

The posse that would go to the far past, and enforce present laws.

These aren't absolutes in knowledge. These are absolutes in faith. Not the same thing.

No, I am talking about what we know, both in science and the bible.

Present your evidence for this assertion.

In heaven we can fly, as can horses, so gravity as we know it is not in place. The moon sized city also come down to earth, and no great disaster happens. (crashes, tidal destruction, etc)

Nope. You deny the evidence and rely solely on faith. That's irrational. No doubt you will now lie and claim that you don't deny evidence.

False, I will deny you the right to hold all evidence up just to your faith!

Nope, you don't. There are accepted definitions for what bread is. What you think it is has no bearing on that definition. Same with science.

Doesn't matter. I still know what bread and science are. If you think you have some secret definition for science that only you, and chosen others can comprehend, do tell us! Ridiculous. Ego, much?

False. You are insane, and you don't care about anything or anyone but yourself, and you love to listen to yourself ramble incoherently. That's the only explanation I can see for your behaviour.

Your charges are insane. Your inability to grasp what I say does not make it incoherant in any way. Your opinion or other posters being insane is both rude, and ignorant, as well as likely against the rules.

It's pretty evident for anyone with more than two braincells that you are either insane or the world's greatest troll. As you are a poor speller, I don't think you're a troll.

And now all we need is for people to care what you think. It is evident that you can not prove a present state existed in the past, and that anyone with one braincell knows that your failure means you fail.

Nope, I told the truth about the bible. It's a book. A good book, but a book nonetheless. It has a lot of prophecies, most of them unfulfilled, and a lot of people think we should live our lives according to what's in the book. That's the truth about the bible.

You claim things, as if you pull them ouut of thin air.

"Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.)..."

Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible | Reasons to Believe

Obviously the truth and you are at best distant cousins.

Thankfully for me, what is known about the early universe agrees with my view, not yours.

Except it is not known. It is a bunch of same state fables, that is known.