Extinctions not asteroid after all, and dino protein real after all...

[Psudopod]

My answer would be "I'm not qualified to answer yet, give me some more time to study".

 

[AV1611VET]

My answer would be "I'm not qualified to answer yet, give me some more time to study".

After 4000 years of direct observation?

 

[Psudopod]

Yep. If 4000 years is not enought for me to understand how and why these checkers are appearing. As you point out, it's not enough to simply assume that because it has been like this it always was and will be. You need evidence.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yep. If 4000 years is not enought for me to understand how and why these checkers are appearing. As you point out, it's not enough to simply assume that because it has been like this it always was and will be. You need evidence.

So you're saying you need to know "how and why" before you can ascertain "when"?

 

[Psudopod]

Before I can say with any certainty at least. If I understand the mecahnisms behind an action, I can understand what happened and what is going to happen. I can say for example that a football is traveling at 10m/s, but if I don't know any more, I can't say what will happen to it. (Was it kicked by a child, is it sat in a car, propelled by rockets etc?)

Does that make sense?

 

[AV1611VET]

Before I can say with any certainty at least. If I understand the mecahnisms behind an action, I can understand what happened and what is going to happen. I can say for example that a football is traveling at 10m/s, but if I don't know any more, I can't say what will happen to it. (Was it kicked by a child, is it sat in a car, propelled by rockets etc?)

Does that make sense?

It sounds to me like you are not a uniformitarianist --- I can't tell.

This challenge was issued to show how uniformitarianism can be overridden by catastrophism.

If ice core sampling --- (which works like stacked checkers) --- show a history of 10,000 years, but 6000 of those years were not actually history, but were placed there in a much shorter timeframe, then it will cause uniformitarianists to draw the wrong conclusion.

In my challenge, those 16 checkers represent what I call "embedded age or existential age" --- maturity without history.

The 4 checkers added, would represent physical age.

 

[Psudopod]

Originally Posted by Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7390200-13/#post52580051
Before I can say with any certainty at least. If I understand the mecahnisms behind an action, I can understand what happened and what is going to happen. I can say for example that a football is traveling at 10m/s, but if I don't know any more, I can't say what will happen to it. (Was it kicked by a child, is it sat in a car, propelled by rockets etc?)

Does that make sense?

It sounds to me like you are not a uniformitarianist --- I can't tell.

This challenge was issued to show how uniformitarianism can be overridden by catastrophism.

If ice core sampling --- (which works like stacked checkers) --- show a history of 10,000 years, but 6000 of those years were not actually history, but were placed there in a much shorter timeframe, then it will cause uniformitarianists to draw the wrong conclusion.

In my challenge, those 16 checkers represent what I call "embedded age or existential age" --- maturity without history.

The 4 checkers added, would represent physical age.

Well, the principle of uniformitism isn’t that everything was always the same as it was and always will be. No one denies catastrophic events don’t happen. But they leave evidence. For example, radioactive decay rates can change, but require enormous heat, pressure or both. If decay rates have changed in the past, then we should see evidence of this heat and or pressure. If we don’t then we have no reason to assume they have changed.

If, for example I study your checkers and determine the checkers form at a rate of 1 every 1000 years unless the temperature rises above about 1000 degrees, then I’d feel more confident in saying that the stage is 20000 years old if I see no sign of extreme temperatures. Of course, there is nothing to say that those first 16 weren’t just there from the beginning, created ex-nihilo, but science can’t work on the basis fo false evidence.

 

[AV1611VET]

If, for example I study your checkers and determine the checkers form at a rate of 1 every 1000 years unless the temperature rises above about 1000 degrees, then I’d feel more confident in saying that the stage is 20000 years old if I see no sign of extreme temperatures. Of course, there is nothing to say that those first 16 weren’t just there from the beginning, created ex-nihilo, but science can’t work on the basis fo false evidence.

Okay, thanks ---

 

[Split Rock]

Unlike the stabbing in the dark science must do, and/or admitting ignorance of what went on in the former times, and state, the bible has the record. And there are a few good indications that the spiritual also state has real fast tree growth.
[/SIZE]

We don't "stab in the dark," you do. You guess and assume and suppose all based on your erroneous interpretation of scripture. You claim that the Bible has "the record," yet then you talk about a "few indications" about so-called "spiritual states." That is where the truth leaks out form your statements.. they aren't based on any "record," but only on "indications" based on your fallible interpretation and assumptions. Too bad you are not God.

For evidence that they do go by present deposition rates, and etc in dating ice cores, one merely would need to google ice core dating.

Go ahead.

German pine tree rings are nothing special. If there was a German pine growing fast before the state change, it could have high ring numbers in it at a young age, and simply carry on aith present rates as the present state came to exist.

If they grew fast, they would have wider rings, not more of them! Hey, but don't let little things like facts get in the way of your infallible musings and assumptions (ie "God's Inerrant Word").

And the carbon in them either. The different life processes and levels, and ways carbon was made, and produced..etc, mean that we should not look for present carbon decay as a dating method.

How exactly was it different back then. Or are you all talk??

Right, It wouldn't look like a present decay curve. Neither need it have any decay, or decay rate.

​

Absurd. No radioactive decay, huh? I won't bother asking for evidence, because I know all you have are assumptions and guesses.

Not many actually were alive after the flood, and the lifespans dropped exponentially. It rapidly settled into close to the present range.

What was the mechanism for this change in lifespans? Or are you all talk??

Science does not provide evidence for the state of the universe at the time of early tree growth. Neither could it know how the very different universe life processes worked, hence what then produced or used carbon. Therefore, if we see a pattern of less carbon 13, or 14 or whatever, for example, and there was a different state, we could deduce that it got there some other way than it now gets there, knowing the actual age. The bible believer is privy to extra information to work with, and therefore a more accurate picture.

The bible believer is "privy" to extra information?? Where is this "extra information" coming from, dad? We keep asking you for it, but you keep coming up short. 'Cause I'll tell you this, Blasphemer, it isn't in scripture.

​

But dead trees nearby, even older than 4400 years would also be different state trees. So that changes nothing!

Really? can you tell us why "different state" trees don't look any different from "present state" trees? Is it all just coincidence that there doesn't seem to be any differences? That we see no indications of a "different state" in the past? Or are you all wrong? Is that possible, great prophet?

The expected decay ratio of C 14 for the 6000 years or whatever that the rings represent the different state, are actually less than 100 years or some such, in actual time. If I take a half empty pool in a yard, and start filling it with water at a certain rate, say, one pint per hour, it might take, say, 4 days to fill. If someone showed up when the pool was 97% full, and measured the rate it was filling up, and assumed it started empty, they would date the filling of the pool to, for example, 2 weeks. In actual fact, it was already half full, and the rate that was observed (science hasn't been around long) is no indication of fill time. They need to be privy to the fact it was not starting on empty. They were not. All they did was use present fill rates, and calculate backwards. The result is totally wrong. If the first half happened to be filled with a different hose, that shot out 100 times the water, that also affects the total fill time. The guy sitting there at the end of the fill simply assumes wrong, adds up wrong and is wrong.

If, If, If, If. What IF the past start was different, what IF carbon 14 didn't decay, What IF I pulled an apple out of thin air and gave it to you, what IF I blew my nose and rubies flew out, What IF I could do the impossible, how would you prove it. You and AVET always play the same tune. What IF? What IF we could place 1000 angels on the head of a pin... what song would they sing? All well and good for phillosophical mussings. We are talking here about science. Not philosophy.

I have some IFs for you, dad. What IF you are not interpreting scripture correctly? What IF scripture is not inerrant? What IF you are not God's inerrant prophet? What IF you are wrong? Where does that leave your mussings about past states? Nowhere.

The carbon 14 ratio in the first half of the pool, so to speak, in the growing trees, being in a different state, was not produced as it now is. Therefore, one must know the former state, to get it right. Even If it seems to add up, to the partially informed.

If, If, If, If, If.....

Remember, that the dead trees, even If sequential, might represent only months, or years even If there are thousands of rings on them, If they are different state tree growth trees. So, we simply need to go back to the split, say, 4400 years, and tack on a couple more years, let us be generous here, and tack on 100 years. That is 4500 years. The oldest living tree on earth is close to that age, If we use ring year dates. (But even then, the living tree could have plenty of rings already when the present state kicked in, rendering them useless a dating rings)

IF, IF, IF.....

Therefore in real time, no tree is older than 4500 years here, so the 7500 years are purely imagined. That leaves the carbon ratios in the trees as simple measures that a different carbon 14 ratio than we know now was in effect before this state existed. No news there. Therefore the carbon dating is nothing in this world but trying to explain the different ratios by using present concepts, decay rates, and etc! That is why.

After all the IFs and assumptions, and mussings, and guesses, and fallible interpretations, you conclude with "therefore!" LOL!

 

[AV1611VET]

If, If, If, If, If.....


IF, IF, IF.....

Welcome to the world of faith, Split Rock.

It's all about eternal life --- "If ye believe..."

 

[Split Rock]

Welcome to the world of faith, Split Rock.

It's all about eternal life --- "If ye believe..."

So are scientists like myself lacking in faith, AVET? Because, in the past you have argued that we have as much faith as you do (or even more).

 

[AV1611VET]

If, If, If, If, If.....

Just from the book of Matthew, alone:


Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mt 5:13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mt 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mt 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mt 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mt 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mt 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mt 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mt 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mt 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mt 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
Mt 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Mt 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mt 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mt 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mt 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mt 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mt 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mt 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mt 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mt 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mt 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mt 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mt 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Mt 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mt 21:3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
Mt 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mt 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mt 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Mt 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Mt 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mt 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mt 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mt 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Mt 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
Mt 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
Mt 28:14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.

 

[AV1611VET]

So are scientists like myself lacking in faith, AVET? Because, in the past you have argued that we have as much faith as you do (or even more).

No, you're not.

But if you're not saved, it is because you're placing your faith in the wrong object.

Faith requires an object.

 

[Hespera]

Faith requires an object.

Interesting. That means you have no faith.

 

[Split Rock]

Just from the book of Matthew, alone:

What does any of that have to do with my argument?

No, you're not.

But if you're not saved, it is because you're placing your faith in the wrong object.

Faith requires an object.

What object do I have mistaken faith in, AVET? Please remember that science is not an object.

 

[Split Rock]

Interesting. That means you have no faith.

Are you claiming that The KJV Bible is not an object?

 

[AV1611VET]

What object do I have mistaken faith in, AVET?

According to Romans 1 --- you place your faith in Mother Nature --- and it's not done by 'mistake'.

(And before you come back and say, "Aha! didn't you say once before that we worship nature and just don't know it?" let me point out that the emphasis on this point is now 'nature' --- not 'worship.)

 

[dad]

We don't "stab in the dark," you do.

Concerning the unknown, of course science does that. How the universe fabric, for example will be in the future, is certainly not known. We are not talking about mixing stuff in test tubes in a present lab here. We are trying to talk about the time of creation of the world. And hoping honest scientists, and others will fess up at their blatant ignorance on the core issue of the laws in place at the time.



You guess and assume and suppose all based on your erroneous interpretation of scripture. You claim that the Bible has "the record," yet then you talk about a "few indications" about so-called "spiritual states." That is where the truth leaks out form your statements.. they aren't based on any "record," but only on "indications" based on your fallible interpretation and assumptions. Too bad you are not God.

If they grew fast, they would have wider rings, not more of them! Hey, but don't let little things like facts get in the way of your infallible musings and assumptions (ie "God's Inerrant Word").

Not at all, unless they grew under the present regime. Remembbr if you can, that the time we are speaking of is not in this universe fabric and laws. Neither was light the same. And how could photosyntesis therefoore expect to be the same even?!

How exactly was it different back then. Or are you all talk??

Well, to see if there was more or less carbon, and more or less of the ratio of isotopes (now radioactive) simply look at the levels in the tree, and what would be expected under a present system. If there is more or less of one element, then we know more of it was present at the time, in whatever processes were in place. From educated starting points like that, you may be able to deduce more and more clues.

Absurd. No radioactive decay, huh? I won't bother asking for evidence, because I know all you have are assumptions and guesses.

No less absurd than claiming without evidence there was. The evidence is simply the materials present, and isotopes that are now there, and in a state of decay at the moment. Balancing this temporal state decay with the bible, we can see it is a feature only of this state. Science didn't know that.

What was the mechanism for this change in lifespans? Or are you all talk??

It was not a mechanism within our present universe. Not a tweak. It was different universe laws affecting atomic and light, and cellular, and molecular and other features of the life processes.

The bible believer is "privy" to extra information?? Where is this "extra information" coming from, dad? We keep asking you for it, but you keep coming up short. 'Cause I'll tell you this, Blasphemer, it isn't in scripture.

There is plenty of information that is extra to this temporal soon to pass away universe in the bible. Of course. What do you think the thing is about??! heaven and hell, and the spirits under the earth, and the week of creation, and etc etc are all out of this state. Ratther than blasphemy, it is honoring God as the Author of a real book to man, with actual info.

Really? can you tell us why "different state" trees don't look any different from "present state" trees? Is it all just coincidence that there doesn't seem to be any differences? That we see no indications of a "different state" in the past? Or are you all wrong? ..

The creation of animals and trees and etc was done by God. He knew how to change the fabric of it in a way that needed to be done. The object was not to kill life on earth that He made. Or to make it all different. If anything, I would suspect that men and plants are LESS different than they would be if they were still under a former, hyper evolution enabled state! Imagine 4500 years of rapid evolving! See, it kind of almost stpopped, or came to the crawl of the present pace, and processes at the split. But men were still men, and trees trees! Trees lived and grew in this new state. So did men. And our lifespans were slashed almost to a tenth of what they were. Also, skin pigmentation, and other changes in mankind would have already been done fast in the former state, and almosy locked into place (to today's slow evolution ability rate) as they are now. Animal instincts, and all sorts of things possibly 'locked into' the last update, so to speak as well.

If, If, If, If. What IF the past start was different, what IF carbon 14 didn't decay, What IF I pulled an apple out of thin air and gave it to you, what IF I blew my nose and rubies flew out, What IF I could do the impossible, how would you prove it. You and AVET always play the same tune. What IF? What IF we could place 1000 angels on the head of a pin... what song would they sing? All well and good for phillosophical mussings. We are talking here about science. Not philosophy.

What if there were no God, and if there were a same state past, and if the universe were stuffed into a speck, etc etc? It isn't me with the musings. I have educated surmisings. Sciencce is groping in the absolute darkness.

I have some IFs for you, dad. What IF you are not interpreting scripture correctly?

Or what IF someone made a counter bible case that was worth it's salt? Otherwise, the truth goes marching on here.

What IF scripture is not inerrant?

What if is is? Either way that does not allow science to prove a same state past, it happens to have built the city of fables on!!

What IF you are not God's inerrant prophet?[/quote[
That one is easy, I ain't. But I have a modicem of intelligence. And I can read somewhat. I also have an uncanny ability to know when something is false.


Science thinks, without God, therefore, it is confused.

 

[Hespera]

Are you claiming that The KJV Bible is not an object?

hee hee

 

[Split Rock]

According to Romans 1 --- you place your faith in Mother Nature --- and it's not done by 'mistake'.

(And before you come back and say, "Aha! didn't you say once before that we worship nature and just don't know it?" let me point out that the emphasis on this point is now 'nature' --- not 'worship.)

1. Mother nature is not an object.
2. Perhaps I should have said "misplaced" faith??
3. It is only according to your fallible interpretation of Romans 1 that atheists worship nature.
4. I am not an atheist.
5. I do not worship nature.