Exploring Universalism

[wendykvw]

Thanks. I think I can see why you believe the way you do also.

So, perhaps a difference is that I was an atheist, and how I began to believe in Christ words is that I was testing ideas on how to best live life...

...from around the world.

Extensively, for years. And for those diverse ideas like from Emerson, and the Tao, and meditation, and dance, and sweat lodges, Hindu chanting, and more, much more -- and great thinkers from around the world -- testing ideas for hours each, at least, and often dozens or hundreds of hours each.

So, you see....

When I tested what Christ taught, first by trying it out the radical proposition: "Love your neighbor as yourself" --
which seemed to mean don't choose whom to love, don't select, and instead of choosing, love the all the people immediately around you, those who are right in front of you.)

I ended up with even better new good friends (in that new city) and rewards that multiplied far beyond anything I imagined, of many sorts.

And so I tested more that Christ taught about how to live. (next I did forgive everyone, even the worst, and also using the Matthew 7:12 golden rule "in everything" meaning all situations without any kinds of exceptions)

And after those....More...

Until slowly, after about 10-12 years, I began to realize to my utter shock that everything Jesus said in the text works extremely well -- better than competing ways to do those things.

Even the frightening "love your enemy" -- even that one(!).... (that one was truly a shock to see work impossibly well even after several others had worked so well: an enemy of years became a loving friend, even though it took me a months after that initial act of acceptance and love and then retreating -- then those months of my being distrustful and cool and him being loving and warm.... until finally I could not deny it. He loved me, in spite of all those years and all that coolness I had towards him after the initial moment of accepting/forgiving/loving him. It works...impossibly well.
It's sorta, just unbelievable until you are there and do it with a real enemy.

So, the reason I believe all the words of Jesus is because I've tested and tested and tested and tested them, and all of them work. Every last one I could ever test, and that's very many.

So, see, that's why now I believe all of the words from Christ in the common bible texts of the 4 gospels, including here for this discussion crucially: Matthew 7 NIV. And if you read it, you'll see how it turns out that not everyone will do as Christ said to do.

@public hermit you may find this interesting also.

Thank you for sharing. It is beautiful how God has transformed your heart. I am willing to bet you will have many more instances of how His Love and Grace will shape your Christian walk.

 

[martymonster]

In my opinion " greater" is how the Pharasis and Saducees saw themselves. Christ was turning it around on them by using hyperbolic language. Their greatness is foreshadowed by their greatness in sin thus greater damnation.

But who am I to know such things!

Well, if you are going to believe something, you should probably know what it means.

That's not actually what Christ meant. If you look at other verses, he explains what he actually means.


Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


The concept of varying levels of punishment, flies in the face of a one size fits all, standardized Christian hell.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Well, if you are going to believe something, you should probably know what it means.

That's not actually what Christ meant. If you look at other verses, he explains what he actually means.


Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


The concept of varying levels of punishment, flies in the face of a one size fits all, standardized Christian hell.

Well, I do not subscribe to varing levels of punishment, just one, separation from The Father. Thanks for engaging!
Blessings

 

[Jeff Saunders]

There is no exaggeration. Follow the scriptures quoted in the post you are quoting from and in the linked post. Universalism is a false teaching started from the lies of the serpent first told to Eve in the Garden of Eden and is not supported in scripture. It is a teaching designed to lead anyone following it away from God and His Word.

Take Care.

From my experience only about 3 years down this path I have found most people who adhere to Christian Universal Redemption to be just the opposite of how you refer to them. I know that for me it has been one of the most eye opening things I have ever seen. My faith is so much stronger now I worship the God of the impossible a God who gets 100% of what he paid for. I personally think that the idea of a eternal torture chamber is straight from satan himself it makes God look weak , God gets a small fraction of the creation satan gets most of it . To me this makes God the loser and satan the winner. I know most people don’t believe God is bigger than sin but those of us in UR camp do. That why scripture says where sin abounds grace abounds all the more(not just a little bit)

 

[wendykvw]

From my experience only about 3 years down this path I have found most people who adhere to Christian Universal Redemption to be just the opposite of how you refer to them. I know that for me it has been one of the most eye opening things I have ever seen. My faith is so much stronger now I worship the God of the impossible a God who gets 100% of what he paid for. I personally think that the idea of a eternal torture chamber is straight from satan himself it makes God look weak , God gets a small fraction of the creation satan gets most of it . To me this makes God the loser and satan the winner. I know most people don’t believe God is bigger than sin but those of us in UR camp do. That why scripture says where sin abounds grace abounds all the more(not just a little bit)

Christianity is in need of a reformation. It has been long over due. Many Christians insist that you must believe the majority of of the world will go to hell. Not to mention that many Pagan religions teach eternal hell.

Christianity isn't unique in that they teach eternal hell but what does make Christianity unique is that a savior came to rescue the world from their fallen condition and God Promises to restore the world to their pre Fallen condition. This is the promise of God and this is how God defeated Satan. But they insist God can create but cannot restore. Imagine Honda creating a car they can't fix. That is what we would call incompetence. Universalists don't believe God is incompetent but the majority of Christianity seems to think that He is. They can't see that their flesh prevents them from seeing the omnipotence of God.

The scriptures say that the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. The flesh gets in the way. Satan most likely enjoys the credit that he has victory over Christ. This is false prophesy for anyone who propagates Christ can lose anyone.

 

[ozso]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you the most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

As a researcher I was first helped by tentmaker.org about 8 years ago. Since I've stated exploring it again it's been early church theology, the universalists on this forum, Brad Jersak and David Bentley Hart and others. And also Steve Gregg throughout. And Eastern Orthodox theology.

 

[wendykvw]

As a researcher I was first helped by tentmaker.org about 8 years ago. Since I've stated exploring it again it's been early church theology, the universalists on this forum, Brad Jersak and David Bentley Hart and others. And also Steve Gregg throughout. And Eastern Orthodox theology.

The first book I read was Hope Beyond Hell. Can we post photos? I would like to post pictures of my books but I haven't read David Bentley Hart but I have enjoyed seeing his videos on love unrelenting.

The books didn't lead me to universalism. But the books did help me understand why I was having this transformation.At first it was surprising that I would see things differently. I was a Baptist and I actually never had a problem with eternal hell this wasn't the reason that I began to question my beliefs. The reason I I began to question my beliefs is the difference of opinions between Catholics and Protestants and as I began to research the reformation and what early church believed I then discovered that the early Christians believe in a temporary hell I began to see that the reformers threw the baby out with the bathwater. Another verse that always fascinated me was in 1Peter Christ preached the gospel to those who had died yet translators insert the word "now" which is not in the original Greek. I just continue to see a pattern that pagan ideas crept into the church. We have moved farther and farther away from the truth and have ignored the greatest news ever told to the world. But there is a Revival and Reformation taking place right now. It is getting stronger.

 

[ozso]

The first book I read was Hope Beyond Hell.Hell

I haven't read any books on the subject. I've just listed to commentary and lectures by those I mentioned by name.

 

[RickReads]

Christianity is in need of a reformation. It has been long over due. Many Christians insist that you must believe the majority of of the world will go to hell. Not to mention that many Pagan religions teach eternal hell.

Christianity isn't unique in that they teach eternal hell but what does make Christianity unique is that a savior came to rescue the world from their fallen condition and God Promises to restore the world to their pre Fallen condition. This is the promise of God and this is how God defeated Satan. But they insist God can create but cannot restore. Imagine Honda creating a car they can't fix. That is what we would call incompetence. Universalists don't believe God is incompetent but the majority of Christianity seems to think that He is. They can't see that their flesh prevents them from seeing the omnipotence of God.

The scriptures say that the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. The flesh gets in the way. Satan most likely enjoys the credit that he has victory over Christ. This is false prophesy for anyone who propagates Christ can lose anyone.

Reformation of Christianity will come in the form of the great tribulation and universal salvation will be a doctrine of the one world religion.

 

[wendykvw]

Reformation of Christianity will come in the form of the great tribulation and universal salvation will be a doctrine of the one world religion.

I believed that before I understood what Christian Universalism actually taught. It is much like Judaism, Catholicism, and Orthodox Church teachings combined. If you are not familiar with those three different Traditions then I can explain further if you do ,then you will get my point.

In the end times the one world religion will be the worship of Lucifer. Universalist have never worshiped lucifer. Universalist worship Jesus Christ and give all praise and glory to Jesus Christ for being the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Sadly the current mainstream Traditions teach Lucifer will win the majority of the world now you tell me who' is giving praise and glory to Lucifer it looks like traditional teachings praise Lucifer more than they do Jesus Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, if you are going to believe something, you should probably know what it means.
That's not actually what Christ meant. If you look at other verses, he explains what he actually means.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The concept of varying levels of punishment, flies in the face of a one size fits all, standardized Christian hell.

@martymonster
Well I guess Jesus is a liar.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal/forever/everlasting.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternity.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: [kolasis]but the righteous into life eternal.​

Eternal means eternal and punishment means punishment. Not some silly "correction."

1 John 4:18
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

The one who has "kolasis" is not made perfect i.e. "not corrected."

 

[Der Alte]

I believed that before I understood what Christian Universalism actually taught. It is much like Judaism, Catholicism, and Orthodox Church teachings combined. If you are not familiar with those three different Traditions then I can explain further if you do ,then you will get my point.* * *

@martymonster
Please provide evidence for universalism in Judaism?
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia,
Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA] ​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

 

[RickReads]

I believed that before I understood what Christian Universalism actually taught. It is much like Judaism, Catholicism, and Orthodox Church teachings combined. If you are not familiar with those three different Traditions then I can explain further if you do ,then you will get my point.

In the end times the one world religion will be the worship of Lucifer. Universalist have never worshiped lucifer. Universalist worship Jesus Christ and give all praise and glory to Jesus Christ for being the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Sadly the current mainstream Traditions teach Lucifer will win the majority of the world now you tell me who' is giving praise and glory to Lucifer it looks like traditional teachings praise Lucifer more than they do Jesus Christ.

You are correct about Lucifer worship. I just elected not to bring that one up at this time. The tribulation will sort everyone out regardless of what flavor of Christianity we are. The great Universalism debate won't matter a whole lot at that point but a form of it will be a hallmark of the world religion.

I was forced to be a Catholic for about 3 years so ill pass on your explanation of it if you don't mind.

 

[wendykvw]

@martymonster
Please provide evidence for universalism in Judaism?
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia,
Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA] ​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

Judaism teaches the Kaddish Prayer, and the temporary purifying nature of Gehinnom.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm

 

[wendykvw]

You are correct about Lucifer worship. I just elected not to bring that one up at this time. The tribulation will sort everyone out regardless of what flavor of Christianity we are. The great Universalism debate won't matter a whole lot at that point but a form of it will be a hallmark of the world religion.

I was forced to be a Catholic for about 3 years so ill pass on your explanation of it if you don't mind.

Thank you for recognizing the prophetic vision of John, and the worship of the evil one.

I believe you may be confusing Unitarian Universalism with Early Patristic Universalism. Unitarian Universalist practice pluralism (the belief that all religions are equally valid). Patristic Universalism does not teach Pluralism, we believe that Christ is the only way to the Father, and you must repent and place faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[wendykvw]

The great Universalism debate won't matter a whole lot at that point but a form of it will be a hallmark of the world religion.

Debate of any sort will not matter, for the person who has placed Faith in Christ, it will be only a matter of anticipating His return to end this world of wickedness.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

From my experience only about 3 years down this path I have found most people who adhere to Christian Universal Redemption to be just the opposite of how you refer to them. I know that for me it has been one of the most eye opening things I have ever seen. My faith is so much stronger now I worship the God of the impossible a God who gets 100% of what he paid for. I personally think that the idea of a eternal torture chamber is straight from satan himself it makes God look weak , God gets a small fraction of the creation satan gets most of it . To me this makes God the loser and satan the winner. I know most people don’t believe God is bigger than sin but those of us in UR camp do. That why scripture says where sin abounds grace abounds all the more(not just a little bit)

According to the scriptures, Satan also appears as an angel of light *2 Corinthians 11:13-15 and we are told to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing *Acts of the Apostles 20:29; Matthew 7:15; Matthew 10:16; 2 Timothy 4:3. Universalism is a false teaching that has originated from the first lies told to Eve in the garden of Eden. That is we can disobey Gods' Word and not surely die *Genesis 3:1-5. The bible does not teach eternal torture. This is also a false teaching from the Roman Catholic Church that is not biblical.

You take Care now.

 

[RickReads]

Thank you for recognizing the prophetic vision of John, and the worship of the evil one.

I believe you may be confusing Unitarian Universalism with Early Patristic Universalism. Unitarian Universalist practice pluralism (the belief that all religions are equally valid). Patristic Universalism does not teach Pluralism, we believe that Christ is the only way to the Father, and you must repent and place faith in Jesus Christ.

I don`t do confusion nor do I have much respect for Ad Hominem. Guilty of it once in a while but it's hard to avoid entirely in a place like this.

If you look at my remarks I said a "Form" of your belief would become a doctrine of world religion. So your distinction was in my language.

However, I don't see a real difference apart from the superior honesty of the former over the latter. The end result is the same.

God requires a person to make a decision about Jesus on this side of life because only on this side would a person be able to reject Him.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I don`t do confusion nor do I have much respect for Ad Hominem. Guilty of it once in a while but it's hard to avoid entirely in a place like this.

If you look at my remarks I said a "Form" of your belief would become a doctrine of world religion. So your distinction was in my language.

However, I don't see a real difference apart from the superior honesty of the former over the latter. The end result is the same.

God requires a person to make a decision about Jesus on this side of life because only on this side would a person be able to reject Him.

If you do not do confusion your best to believe the scriptures shared with you. Anything else from the teachings and traditions of men outside of the scriptures is the very definition of confusion if it disagrees with Gods Word and leads us away from Gods' Word to believe in lies. We can seek to explain away the scriptures all we like, but according to the scriptures only Gods' Word us truth *Romans 3:4; John 17:17 and we should believe and follow them *Acts of the Apostles 5:29. It is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day according to Jesus in John 12:47-48 and those who do not believe according to Jesus do not receive eternal life *John 3:36

Take Care.

 

[RickReads]

If you do not do confusion your best to believe the scriptures shared with you. Anything outside of the scriptures is the very definition of confusion if it disagrees with Gods Word and leads us away from Gods' Word to believe in lies.

I just know I'll regret asking, but what books do you think I read besides the Bible?