Exploring Universalism

[Halbhh]

But I don't think the human ability to choose sin is as great a good as they think since those who are saved will not sin. I don't think that love depends on being able to choose not to love. And I don't think God cares more about the human freedom to sin than God does about human lives. So, even though I think they have a better argument than a Calvinist might, I still don't think it's very good.

Definitely Salvation is open to everyone, all the world.

And all includes especially all the sinners (meaning just everyone) --

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Nevertheless, not all actually want to turn to God it seems, though I speculatively think that initially every person would choose to at at age 2 or 3 for example, in time a person can choose over and over to go another way, until eventually they have built themselves into a new person (in other words, life is real).

And God does help the sinner to have chances to repent, such as for example in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

But not everyone does turn back to the Father even when suffering.

Some do, and some choose not to.

But God won't force us against our will ultimately. He really does respect us that much that He allows us to truly choose.

So, He makes salvation always open to us, and many will eventually choose to turn back to Him.

But we have a genuine choice. It's not just fated like we are rigidly programmed without choice, that is. So, it's real, and some will choose always away from Him. He will let them perish, in the end, because that is the most merciful.

 

[wendykvw]

While Salvation is open to everyone, all the world:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Nevertheless, not all actually want to turn to God.

And He does help the sinner to have chances to repent, such as for example in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

But not everyone does turn back to the Father.

Some do, and some choose not to.

And God loves us so much that He doesn't force us against our will.

God never forces you are correct. I believe the Calvinist term is irresistible Grace. Universalism does not depend on the fallen nature of mankind but on the perfect plan of God to redeem mankind. Not dependent on mankind's wisdom but by the wisdom of Father God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I did consider it. And I also apply hermeneutics, part of which in this case is noticing the contexts provided by the author: i.e. you are SDA. This reflects a fuller situation about your own position of critical appraisal about Univeralism. It's not off the table--it's just something that's there that you didn't realize is a part of the reality of the interaction of this thread, or of your own interaction while engaging Universalist's claims. I'm just helping you recognize it.

No you didn't and no you did not. If you did you would have addressed the content of my posts but you simply ignored what was written to you and shared from the scriptures and answered the questions asked of you. The posts that were written to you have nothing to do with where I am from but everything to do with the scriptures that have been provided here that are in disagreement with you that you simply ignored. Anyhow they are God's Words not my words so I will leave them between you and God to work through and perhaps you can pray about them as they are indeed in disagreement with you.

You take Care now

 

[Halbhh]

God never forces you are correct. I believe the Calvinist term is irresistible Grace. Universalism does not depend on the fallen nature of mankind but on the perfect plan of God to redeem mankind. Not dependent on mankind's wisdom but by the wisdom of Father God.

But you and I and most Christians also are not Calvinist. Calvinism is a minority view, but also seems not to fit the texts when they are read more fully/completely. Instead, what I see is like the commonplace "cooperative" viewpoint. We choose but then God helps us. Like a parent helps a 4 yr old learn to ride a bike for example. There's a proverb that is very succinct: Proverbs 16:9 A person's heart plans their course, but the LORD determines their steps.

or

Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

We turn to God, and He comes to meet us on the way (just like for the prodigal parable).

 

[wendykvw]

But you and I and most Christians also are not Calvinist. Calvinism is a minority view, but also seems not to fit the texts when they are read more fully/completely. Instead, what I see is like the commonplace "cooperative" viewpoint. We choose but then God helps us. Like a parent helps a 4 yr old learn to ride a bike for example. There's a proverb that is very succinct: Proverbs 16:9 A person's heart plans their course, but the LORD determines their steps.

or

Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

We turn to God, and He comes to meet us on the way (just like for the prodigal parable).

What denomination are you? Are you protestant?

 

[Halbhh]

What denomination are you? Are you protestant?

I don't see myself as 'protestant' in that I'm not actually protesting anything main doctrine in the predominate mainstream churches per se. I'm in a Lutheran church at the moment, but just as well it could have been some other like Episcopal or United Church of Christ, as it had to be one my wife and I would both find acceptable, and I think Lutheran is pretty great now in that they emphasize both that we are saved by Grace alone (through faith) but simultaneously emphasize doing as Christ said to do. That's the right combo. See, I never expect a church to be perfect or even right in everything, but it only needs to be mostly going the right way, and 'mostly' is as good as it can ever be, during this age. So, no perfect churches in my view, and a great many of them are interchangeable also.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No you didn't and no you did not. If you did you would have addressed the content of my posts but you simply ignored what was written to you and shared from the scriptures and answered the questions asked of you. The posts that were written to you have nothing to do with where I am from but everything to do with the scriptures that have been provided here that are in disagreement with you that you simply ignored. Anyhow they are God's Words not my words so I will leave them between you and God to work through and perhaps you can pray about them as they are indeed in disagreement with you.

You take Care now

So, what part of what you said earlier do you feel I didn't address? I'm always willing to try again ...

... do you mean the part where you cite verses that you think imply something about the simplicity, clarity and perspicuity permeates every single sentence of the entire Bible?

Yeah, I disagee with this usage of those verses. I think interpretation on the whole is only going to take place within the Church at large, not in solitary brains while they sit alone in their living rooms.

 

[wendykvw]

I don't see myself as 'protestant' in that I'm not actually protesting anything main doctrine in the predominate mainstream churches per se. I'm in a Lutheran church at the moment, but just as well it could have been some other like Episcopal or United Church of Christ, as it had to be one my wife and I would both find acceptable, and I think Lutheran is pretty great now in that they emphasize both that we are saved by Grace alone (through faith) but simultaneously emphasize doing as Christ said to do. That's the right combo. See, I never expect a church to be perfect or even right in everything, but it only needs to be mostly going the right way, and 'mostly' is as good as it can ever be, during this age. So, no perfect churches in my view, and a great many of them are interchangeable also.

Thank you for your openness. I can see why you believe the way you do. I did believe the same for 20 years as a Baptist. I have been a universalist for 12 years. Sometimes I can't believe I never had a problem with my Baptist world view. The reason I asked if you are Protestant is you mentioned the minority view was Calvinism. I take issue with that due to the fact that Martin Luther was also in the minority when he wrote his 95 page Theses. What he did was revolutionary. We should never assume the majority of our generation is correct. Corruption of institutions never take long.

 

[wendykvw]

I forgot to mention that universalism is not a new invention. Since the begining of the early church there were three schools of thought. Eternal hell, annihilation and Universal Restoration. The church that believed and taught universal restoration was the Eastern Church and their first language and native tongue was Greek. The other schools of thought from the western church believed eternal conscious torment and it is essential to understand that their first and native language was not Greek. As you know the manuscripts for the New testament are Greek so that is a very important fact that in my opinion supports universal restoration.

 

[wendykvw]

Free will only exists in the flesh at the time you are in the flesh. You are speaking after death in ressurected bodies. Scripture clearly teaches no final decisions are made after death.

What scripture do you believe supports your view that redemption ends at death without any hope?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What scripture do you believe supports your view that redemption ends at death without any hope?

John 5
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Halbhh]

Thank you for your openness. I can see why you believe the way you do. I did believe the same for 20 years as a Baptist. I have been a universalist for 12 years. Sometimes I can't believe I never had a problem with my Baptist world view. The reason I asked if you are Protestant is you mentioned the minority view was Calvinism. I take issue with that due to the fact that Martin Luther was also in the minority when he wrote his 95 page Theses. What he did was revolutionary. We should never assume the majority of our generation is correct. Corruption of institutions never take long.

Thanks. I think I can see why you believe the way you do also.

So, perhaps a difference is that I was an atheist, and how I began to believe in Christ words is that I was testing ideas on how to best live life...

...from around the world.

Extensively, for years. And for those diverse ideas like from Emerson, and the Tao, and meditation, and dance, and sweat lodges, Hindu chanting, and more, much more -- and great thinkers from around the world -- testing ideas for hours each, at least, and often dozens or hundreds of hours each.

So, you see....

When I tested what Christ taught, first by trying it out the radical proposition: "Love your neighbor as yourself" --
which seemed to mean don't choose whom to love, don't select, and instead of choosing, love the all the people immediately around you, those who are right in front of you.)

I ended up with even better new good friends (in that new city) and rewards that multiplied far beyond anything I imagined, of many sorts.

And so I tested more that Christ taught about how to live. (next I did forgive everyone, even the worst, and also using the Matthew 7:12 golden rule "in everything" meaning all situations without any kinds of exceptions)

And after those....More...

Until slowly, after about 10-12 years, I began to realize to my utter shock that everything Jesus said in the text works extremely well -- better than competing ways to do those things.

Even the frightening "love your enemy" -- even that one(!).... (that one was truly a shock to see work impossibly well even after several others had worked so well: an enemy of years became a loving friend, even though it took me a months after that initial act of acceptance and love and then retreating -- then those months of my being distrustful and cool and him being loving and warm.... until finally I could not deny it. He loved me, in spite of all those years and all that coolness I had towards him after the initial moment of accepting/forgiving/loving him. It works...impossibly well.
It's sorta, just unbelievable until you are there and do it with a real enemy.

So, the reason I believe all the words of Jesus is because I've tested and tested and tested and tested them, and all of them work. Every last one I could ever test, and that's very many.

So, see, that's why now I believe all of the words from Christ in the common bible texts of the 4 gospels, including here for this discussion crucially: Matthew 7 NIV. And if you read it, you'll see how it turns out that not everyone will do as Christ said to do.

@public hermit you may find this interesting also.

 

[martymonster]

Interesting. That would be a logical move from Calvinism to Universalism. One teaches no free will and the other teaches our will is a moot point. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing!
Blessings.

What do you mean "our will is a moot point"?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What do you mean "our will is a moot point"?

It isn't moot.

 

[public hermit]

Thanks. I think I can see why you believe the way you do also.

So, perhaps a difference is that I was an atheist, and how I began to believe in Christ words is that I was testing ideas on how to best live life...

...from around the world.

Extensively, for years. And for those diverse ideas like from Emerson, and the Tao, and meditation, and dance, and sweat lodges, Hindu chanting, and more, much more -- and great thinkers from around the world -- testing ideas for hours each, at least, and often dozens or hundreds of hours each.

So, you see....

When I tested what Christ taught, first by trying it out the radical proposition: "Love your neighbor as yourself" --
which seemed to mean don't choose whom to love, don't select, and instead of choosing, love the all the people immediately around you, those who are right in front of you.)

I ended up with even better new good friends (in that new city) and rewards that multiplied far beyond anything I imagined, of many sorts.

And so I tested more that Christ taught about how to live. (next I did forgive everyone, even the worst, and also using the Matthew 7:12 golden rule "in everything" meaning all situations without any kinds of exceptions)

And after those....More...

Until slowly, after about 10-12 years, I began to realize to my utter shock that everything Jesus said in the text works extremely well -- better than competing ways to do those things.

Even the frightening "love your enemy" -- even that one(!).... (that one was truly a shock to see work impossibly well even after several others had worked so well: an enemy of years became a loving friend, even though it took me a months after that initial act of acceptance and love and then retreating -- then those months of my being distrustful and cool and him being loving and warm.... until finally I could not deny it. He loved me, in spite of all those years and all that coolness I had towards him after the initial moment of accepting/forgiving/loving him. It works...impossibly well.
It's sorta, just unbelievable until you are there and do it with a real enemy.

So, the reason I believe all the words of Jesus is because I've tested and tested and tested and tested them, and all of them work. Every last one I could ever test, and that's very many.

So, see, that's why now I believe all of the words from Christ in the common bible texts of the 4 gospels, including here for this discussion crucially: Matthew 7 NIV. And if you read it, you'll see how it turns out that not everyone will do as Christ said to do.

@public hermit you may find this interesting also.

Yes, I absolutely love how you came to faith. It is one of the most genuine approaches, testing the truth, that I have ever heard. It's beautiful.

I think it's as Jesus said, if we keep his commandments, he reveals himself to us.

 

[martymonster]

John 5
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If this verse is talking about eternal punishment, can you explain to me how someone could receive a "greater damnation"?

Cheers!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If this verse is talking about eternal punishment, can you explain to me how someone could receive a "greater damnation"?

Cheers!

This verse is not talking about eternal, more like everlasting, and I'm not sure what greater damnation means. I dont think there are degrees of judgment by our Father.

" English language:, “eternal” means “without beginning or end, always existing, lasting forever”; whereas “everlasting” means “lasting forever, lasting for a very long time, for an indefinitely long time.”

 

[martymonster]

This verse is not talking about eternal, more like everlasting, and I'm not sure what greater damnation means. I dont think there are degrees of judgment by our Father.

" English language:, “eternal” means “without beginning or end, always existing, lasting forever”; whereas “everlasting” means “lasting forever, lasting for a very long time, for an indefinitely long time.”

Ok, everlasting punishment. This is what I was referring to.


Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.


Now, surely if "everlasting punishment" is just throwing people into a literal lake of fire, then there couldn't be a lesser or greater "damnation"

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Ok, everlasting punishment. This is what I was referring to.


Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.


Now, surely if "everlasting punishment" is just throwing people into a literal lake of fire, then there couldn't be a lesser or greater "damnation"

In my opinion " greater" is how the Pharasis and Saducees saw themselves. Christ was turning it around on them by using hyperbolic language. Their greatness is foreshadowed by their greatness in sin thus greater damnation.

But who am I to know such things!

 

[wendykvw]

John 5
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe we all start with a presupposition. With a free will presupposition salvation is viewed as a reward for chosing God and punishment will be inflicted for not chosing God. However there are a smorgasbord of verses that contradict this view.

All will be judged and will be refined by the consuming fire of God. We who believe in restorative justice place our faith that Christ will restore every prodigal.

"Jesus opposed retributive justice. The justice system in the United States is based on punishment. It’s primarily a form of retributive justice. The same was true in ancient Rome. If you committed an act that was against the “justice of Rome,” you would not be forgiven; you’d be killed. If you commit an act that’s against the “justice of the United States,” you will be punished and possibly killed.
Jesus turned that idea of justice upside down. He enacted restorative justice. It’s a justice that isn’t based on retribution. Rather, it’s based on healing our souls and our relationships."

More about Jesus and restorative justice.

God's Justice Is Good News: Claiming Restorative Justice