Exploring Universalism

[Hmm]

Thank you for sharing. Did you come from a previous tradition? At the time you discovered the quote were you actively searching for anything in particular?

I'm from a Church of England background and still attend a C of E church.

Yes, the idea of an eternal hell never sat easily with me and I came across the idea of universalism from a thread started by @Cormack here on CF. Reading and watching YouTube videos by people such as Thomas Talbott, Brad Jersak and Robin Parry quickly convinced me of its truth.

The best intro to Christian universalism I know is this article by Keith DeRose https://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/

How about you Wendy?

 

[public hermit]

I jumped the gun, sorry folks. Deleted.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would disagree. I believe it is not charitable to be honest and tell the truth. If someone is drunk and falls asleep in a railway track while walking home and you come across this person sleeping and know a train is coming in 10mins do you leave them there to sleep because you do not want to wake them up or do you wake them up and help them off the railway track knowing if they stay sleeping there they will get run over by the coming train. - Jesus is coming. If you love someone you are not going to let them asleep because you do not want to wake them up. There is no more second chances after the second coming. His reward is with him. - see also John 3:36.

Take Care.

So, do you think your own set of beliefs is impervious to critique or to being shown as having a few points of error here or there?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So, do you think your own set of beliefs is impervious to critique or to being shown as having a few points of error here or there?

I believe and follow what God's Word says. This is the only standard of what is true and what is not true according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4. You did not respond to anything in the post you were quoting from. What is it there that you disagree with?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I believe and follow what God's Word says. This is the only standard of what is true and what is not true according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4. You did not respond to anything in the post you were quoting from.

But all Christians can and often do claim this identical statement: "I believe and follow God's Word..."

Why is your viewpoint more "special" when there's other Christians in other denominations who disagree with you about this or that point of doctrine and claim that "they're just following God's Word"?

And yes, I can appreciate the fact that you think addressing the Universalist's viewpoint is similar to rescuing someone off of the train tracks. But it's just an analogy you've made to describe your feelings, and how far it is indeed representative of the reality of your interaction with them on a spiritual level is anyone's guess.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But all Christians can and often do claim this identical statement: "I believe and follow God's Word..."

Why is your viewpoint more "special" when there's other Christians in other denominations who disagree with you about this or that point of doctrine and claim that "they're just following God's Word"?

And yes, I can appreciate the fact that you think addressing the Universalist's viewpoint is similar to rescuing someone off of the train tracks. But it's just an analogy you've made to describe your feelings, and how far it is indeed representative of the reality of your interaction with them on a spiritual level is anyone's guess.

Yep there is over 40,000 of them all professing to be the chosen of God in fulfillment of the prophecies of Jesus of many false Christs and prophets in the last days just prior to the second coming that if possible will deceive God's very elect. The question we should all be considering is how are we going to know if we are following Gods' truth or not or following in the footsteps of the 39,999; that is the many that are called or the few that are the chosen *Matthew 7:13-23?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yep there is over 40,000 of them all professing to be the chosen of God in fulfillment of the prophecies of Jesus of many false Christs and prophets in the last days just prior to the second coming. How are you going to know if you are following Gods' truth or not or following in the footsteps of the 39,999?

I don't "know." But each one of us can do what we can by questioning, testing, researching--and even praying about--our beliefs as best we can.

No one alive has the final word about the Bible, and that includes you and that includes me. If someone (let's take Marcion as an example) has some wrong beliefs on a deep level, then that should come out of the wash in due time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yep there is over 40,000 of them all professing to be the chosen of God in fulfillment of the prophecies of Jesus of many false Christs and prophets in the last days just prior to the second coming that if possible will deceive God's very elect. The question we should all be considering is how are we going to know if we are following Gods' truth or not or following in the footsteps of the 39,999; that is the many that are called or the few that are the chosen *Matthew 7:13-23?

It's probably best not to assume from the get go that others who disagree with you "must be" wolves ...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I don't "know." But each one of us can do what we can by questioning, testing, researching--and even praying about--our beliefs as best we can.

No one alive has the final word about the Bible, and that includes you and that includes me. If someone (let's take Marcion as an example) has some wrong beliefs on a deep level, then that should come out of the wash in due time.

Here is the thing brother 2Philo. I wanted to answer my own question but wanted you to first at least think about them. According to the scriptures, Gods' people are in every Church believe it or not. They are those who are living up to all the light of the knowledge of God's Word that he has revealed to them *see John 10:16. Jesus says however, that the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth, God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth (see John 4:23-24). Jesus also saying that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from Gods' Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. God is calling us all where ever we are out from following many made teachings and traditions back to His Word to seek Him in Spirit and in truth. The good news is that God promises to all those who seek him with all their hearts that "you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart." -Jeremiah 29:13. God is calling us all to turn away from the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and His Word to search for Him through His Word. Jesus is calling us all home to seek Him through His Word and promises if we shall seek him that he will guide us into His truth by His Spirit *see God's promises here in John 7:17; John 16:13; John 14:26; 1 John 2:27 which is a part of God's new covenant promise to all those who have faith in God's Word *Hebrews 8:11. Jesus says many are called but only the few are chosen and Gods' sheep hear His voice (the Word) and follow him while those who do not hear will not follow because they are not His sheep (see John 10:26-27).

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

 

[wendykvw]

I'm from a Church of England background and still attend a C of E church.

Yes, the idea of an eternal hell never sat easily with me and I came across the idea of universalism from a thread started by @Cormack here on CF. Reading and watching YouTube videos by people such as Thomas Talbott, Brad Jersak and Robin Parry quickly convinced me of its truth.

The best intro to Christian universalism I know is this article by Keith DeRose https://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/

How about you Wendy?

It was a process that was unexpected. I was extremely against universalism and came across someone who was promoting it on a website. I spoke to a colleague of mine who was trained in Greek and asked him about the word eternal and if it could mean a period of time or an age and he said yes it could. But when I asked him further about it he went silent and I forgot about it for several years. At the time I was involved in evangelism ministries and also had written a sermon about hell that Baptist pastors used in their sermons. I never had a problem with eternal hell. One day while speaking to a lady who was in what I believed to be a cult I was not as kind as I should have been and after that experience I began to question why I would be so cruel if I had the holy Spirit. I believe that it was necessary for me to investigate the history of hell and purgatory. And then I also had a conversation as I was counseling Christians who believed they could lose their salvation. During this time I was doing a lot of research and I did come across Thomas Talbot . I came across the Christian universalist association. Thank you for asking.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here is the thing brother 2Philo. I wanted to answer my own question but wanted you to first at least think about them. According to the scriptures, Gods' people are in every Church believe it or not. They are those who are living up to all the light of the knowledge of God's Word that he has revealed to them *see John 10:16. Jesus says however, that the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth, God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth (see John 4:23-24). Jesus also saying that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from Gods' Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. God is calling us all where ever we are out from following many made teachings and traditions back to His Word to seek Him in Spirit and in truth. The good news is that God promises to all those who seek him with all their hearts that "you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart." -Jeremiah 29:13. God is calling us all to turn away from the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and His Word to search for Him through His Word. Jesus is calling us all home to seek Him through His Word and promises if we shall seek him that he will guide us into His truth by His Spirit *see God's promises here in John 7:17; John 16:13; John 14:26; 1 John 2:27 which is a part of God's new covenant promise to all those who have faith in God's Word *Hebrews 8:11. Jesus says many are called but only the few are chosen and Gods' sheep hear His voice (the Word) and follow him while those who do not hear will not follow because they are not His sheep (see John 10:26-27).

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

I understand that you have a penchant for citing that "few are chosen," but this doesn't explain why either you or I then must resolutely bash fellow Trinitarian Christians. Do you think I need to if I agree that "few [whatever 'few' actually is] are chosen"?

How do you know that the teachings of the SDA are utterly coherent and applicable in all cases? When you criticize Universalists, are you doing so as someone who has the absolute, unerring viewpoint upon the Bible?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I have witnessed many conversions to Universalism and the majority come from a Calvinist background. It isn't that big of leap. The only Tulip that changes is limited to unlimited. ☺️

Interesting. That would be a logical move from Calvinism to Universalism. One teaches no free will and the other teaches our will is a moot point. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing!
Blessings.

 

[PloverWing]

I think traditions that place a lot of emphasis on divine sovereignty, e.g. reformed, are in a good position to make the step. If God is essentially love, and if God is sovereign, and if God desires the salvation of all, then God should be able to get what God wants. Calvin was headed in the right direction, at any rate. He just limited God's desire.

It seems to me that this is exactly where Reformed theology should end up. If salvation depends on God's choice, then surely God would choose rightly, and all would be saved.

 

[PloverWing]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you the most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

Most influential to me, I think, was the priest of the parish I belonged to back in the 1980s. (Robert C. Johnson, later bishop of North Carolina.) He believed that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus was such a powerful event that it saved everyone, whether they understood it or not. I remember him saying to me "I don't save people; God saves people." He believed that we are saved not by our correct belief, but by the powerful act of God through Christ.

To my knowledge, he didn't leave extensive writings, so unfortunately I don't have resources to point you to. But his counsel was influential on my young-adult self.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Here is the thing brother 2Philo. I wanted to answer my own question but wanted you to first at least think about them. According to the scriptures, Gods' people are in every Church believe it or not. They are those who are living up to all the light of the knowledge of God's Word that he has revealed to them *see John 10:16. Jesus says however, that the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth, God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth (see John 4:23-24). Jesus also saying that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from Gods' Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. God is calling us all where ever we are out from following many made teachings and traditions back to His Word to seek Him in Spirit and in truth. The good news is that God promises to all those who seek him with all their hearts that "you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart." -Jeremiah 29:13. God is calling us all to turn away from the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and His Word to search for Him through His Word. Jesus is calling us all home to seek Him through His Word and promises if we shall seek him that he will guide us into His truth by His Spirit *see God's promises here in John 7:17; John 16:13; John 14:26; 1 John 2:27 which is a part of God's new covenant promise to all those who have faith in God's Word *Hebrews 8:11. Jesus says many are called but only the few are chosen and Gods' sheep hear His voice (the Word) and follow him while those who do not hear will not follow because they are not His sheep (see John 10:26-27).

Your response here...

I understand that you have a penchant for citing that "few are chosen," but this doesn't explain why either you or I then must resolutely bash fellow Trinitarian Christians. Do you think I need to if I agree that "few [whatever 'few' actually is] are chosen"?

How do you know that the teachings of the SDA are utterly coherent and applicable in all cases? When you criticize Universalists, are you doing so as someone who has the absolute, unerring viewpoint upon the Bible?

What is it in the post you are responding to that you disagree with and why and what does your response have anything at all to do with what you are posted from? It doesn't. Go re-read it what does it have to do with anyone being SDA or any other religion? - Nothing. Please consider and read the post you are quoting from before responding. Anyone believe as you wish. That is between you and God as we all answer only to God come judgement day for the words of God we accept or reject according to Jesus in John 12:47-48.

Take care.

 

[Hmm]

Interesting. That would be a logical move from Calvinism to Universalism. One teaches no free will and the other teaches our will is a moot point. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing!
Blessings.

Universalism doesn't teach that free will is not important. It just says, that eventually everyone will see God clearly and will then freely embrace Him. It's like Calvinism but where everyone becomes an Elect after an exercise of their free-will, which may happen in the next age.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Universalism doesn't teach that free will is not important. It just says, that eventually everyone will see God clearly and will then freely embrace Him. It's like Calvinism but where everyone becomes an Elect after an exercise of their free-will, which may happen in the next age.

Free will only exists in the flesh at the time you are in the flesh. You are speaking after death in ressurected bodies. Scripture clearly teaches no final decisions are made after death.

 

[bling]

Hell does nothing for the people that go there and nothing to satisfy God, but the threat of hell does encourage some individuals still willing to accept God’s forgiveness (charity) as pure undeserved charity to choose quickly God's Love. The perceived pleasures of sin are a very likely alternative, but going to hell even off in the future is a strong encouragement to accept God’s Love now.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Your response here...

What is it in the post you are responding to that you disagree with and why and what does your response have anything at all to do with what you are posted from? It doesn't. Go re-read it what does it have to do with anyone being SDA or any other religion? - Nothing. Please consider and read the post you are quoting from before responding. Anyone believe as you wish. That is between you and God as we all answer only to God come judgement day for the words of God we accept or reject according to Jesus in John 12:47-48.

Take care.

I did consider it. And I also apply hermeneutics, part of which in this case is noticing the contexts provided by the author: i.e. you are SDA. This reflects a fuller situation about your own position of critical appraisal about Univeralism. It's not off the table--it's just something that's there that you didn't realize is a part of the reality of the interaction of this thread, or of your own interaction while engaging Universalist's claims. I'm just helping you recognize it.

 

[Halbhh]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you the most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

While Salvation is open to everyone, all the world:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Nevertheless, not all actually want to turn to God.

And He does help the sinner to have chances to repent, such as for example in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

But not everyone does turn back to the Father.

Some do, and some choose not to.

And God loves us so much that He doesn't force us against our will.