Exploring Universalism

[wendykvw]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you the most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Patristic Universalism. What has helped you most? Share any resources you have found helpful. Scripture, an experience during prayer, books or websites, videos etc.

Why do you want to promote the false teachings of Universalism that are not biblical and based on the first lies that the serpent told Eve in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3:1-5? Your better off asking God to be your guide and teacher and reading and believing what the scriptures teach.

WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

 

[public hermit]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

Scripture, an experience during prayer, books or websites, videos etc.

Early church writings peaked my interest such as Gregory of Nyssa's dialogue with Macrina the Younger: On the Soul and Resurrection.

Philip Schaff: NPNF2-05. Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, Etc. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God is a just God, therefore every sin must be punished. And as the Bible says, punishment for sin is death. Every time you sin you build bigger debt to God that none of us can repay, not even a bid. Either you believe in your heart Jesus paid for your sins on the cross, or your sin remains and God will punish it by eternal death in hell. Universalism is a lie from satan, nothing in the Bible supports it. Don't seek wisdom from a man but from God. The Word of God has the authority above men, and the Word of God says that whoever does not believe in the name of the only Son of God is condemned already.

No one comes to the Father but through Jesus, you try to get in any other way, you will end up in hell. Repent and seek God.

 

[wendykvw]

Early church writings peaked my interest such as Gregory of Nyssa's dialogue with Macrina the Younger: On the Soul and Resurrection.

Philip Schaff: NPNF2-05. Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, Etc. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

If you don't mind me asking, what tradition did you identify with if any previously?

 

[public hermit]

If you don't mind me asking, what tradition did you identify with if any previously?

I am Presbyterian (PCUSA).

 

[wendykvw]

I am Presbyterian (PCUSA).

Are you familiar with Peter Hiett? He is a pastor in Denver Colorado and he was a presbyterian pastor and his father was a presbyterian pastor. He now has started a church in Denver Colorado and has sponsored a couple of universalist conventions at his church The Sanctuary church.

 

[public hermit]

Are you familiar with Peter Hiett? He is a pastor in Denver Colorado and he was a presbyterian pastor and his father was a presbyterian pastor. He now has started a church in Denver Colorado and has sponsored a couple of universalist conventions at his church The Sanctuary.

I am not, but I will look him up.

If you don't mind me asking, what tradition did you identify with if any previously?

This is from the PCUSA Adult Catechism.

Question 49. Will all human beings be saved?
No one will be lost who can be saved. The limits to salvation, whatever they may be, are known only to God. Three truths above all are certain. God is a holy God who is not to be trifled with. No one will be saved except by grace alone. And no judge could possibly be more gracious than our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

The denomination doesn't flatly assert UR, but it doesn't close the door on the possibility, either. I think that is the appropriate position for churches to take. At least, at this point in time. I'm inclined to say UR is highly probably, with a reformative hell (hell being the fire of God's love), given the nature of God.

The Study Catechism: Full Version | Presbyterian Mission Agency

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Why do you want to promote the false teachings of Universalism that are not biblical and based on the first lies that the serpent told Eve in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3:1-5? Your better off asking God to be your guide and teacher and reading and believing what the scriptures teach.

WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

I think you're exaggerating the problem here, bro! Just let folks who espouse Universalism express themselves as fellow Christians. I think we all can cut each other some slack.

 

[wendykvw]

I am not, but I will look him up.



This is from the PCUSA Adult Catechism.

Question 49. Will all human beings be saved?
No one will be lost who can be saved. The limits to salvation, whatever they may be, are known only to God. Three truths above all are certain. God is a holy God who is not to be trifled with. No one will be saved except by grace alone. And no judge could possibly be more gracious than our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

The denomination doesn't flatly assert UR, but it doesn't close the door on the possibility, either. I think that is the appropriate position for churches to take. At least, at this point in time. I'm inclined to say UR is highly probably, with a reformative hell, given the nature of God.

The Study Catechism: Full Version | Presbyterian Mission Agency

Amazing. Jan Bonda was also Presbyterian he also wrote a book about universalism. I am finding out that a lot of traditional denominations out there indicate in their statement of beliefs the possibility of universalism. Lutheran's and John Wesley and of course Eastern Orthodox Church. And forms of Judaism.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think you're exaggerating the problem here, bro! Just let folks who espouse Universalism express themselves as fellow Christians. I think we all can cut each other some slack.

There is no exaggeration. Follow the scriptures quoted in the post you are quoting from and in the linked post. Universalism is a false teaching started from the lies of the serpent first told to Eve in the Garden of Eden and is not supported in scripture. It is a teaching designed to lead anyone following it away from God and His Word.

Take Care.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There is no exaggeration. Follow the scriptures quoted in the post you are quoting from and in the linked post. Universalism is a false teaching started from the lies of the serpent first told to Eve in the Garden of Eden and is not supported in scripture. It is a teaching designed to lead anyone following it away from God and His Word.

Take Care.

While I may disagree with some of the interpretations that Universalists have of a few bits of the Bible, I don't think its charitable to characterize fellow Trinitarian Christians as serpentine liars. I'm sure that in our individual reading of the Bible, you could cite several things you disagree with me over, and I could do the same to you. Is it really going to bring us all closer to Christ if we haggle with each other in such a way that we essentially stop seeing each other as fellow human beings?

 

[public hermit]

Amazing. Jan Bonda was also Presbyterian he also wrote a book about universalism. I am finding out that a lot of traditional denominations out there indicate in their statement of beliefs the possibility of universalism. Lutheran's and John Wesley and of course Eastern Orthodox Church. And forms of Judaism.

Yeah, I think openness is a generous and humble position to take. It certainly is not sin to be open to the possibility.

I think traditions that place a lot of emphasis on divine sovereignty, e.g. reformed, are in a good position to make the step. If God is essentially love, and if God is sovereign, and if God desires the salvation of all, then God should be able to get what God wants. Calvin was headed in the right direction, at any rate. He just limited God's desire.

 

[wendykvw]

Yeah, I think openness is a generous and humble position to take. It certainly is not sin to be open to the possibility.

I think traditions that place a lot of emphasis on divine sovereignty, e.g. reformed, are in a good position to make the step. If God is essentially love, and if God is sovereign, and if God desires the salvation of all, then God should be able to get what God wants. Calvin was headed in the right direction, at any rate. He just limited God's desire.

I have witnessed many conversions to Universalism and the majority come from a Calvinist background. It isn't that big of leap. The only Tulip that changes is limited to unlimited. ☺️

 

[public hermit]

I have witnessed many conversions to Universalism and the majority come from a Calvinist background. It isn't that big of leap. The only Tulip that changes is limited to unlimited. ☺️

Exactly. I think those who place a premium on the human ability to choose sin have a better argument against universalism because human choice is essential to salvation.

But I don't think the human ability to choose sin is as great a good as they think since those who are saved will not sin. I don't think that love depends on being able to choose not to love. And I don't think God cares more about the human freedom to sin than God does about human lives. So, even though I think they have a better argument than a Calvinist might, I still don't think it's very good.

 

[lsume]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

This is absolutely the truth. There is absolutely no way to come to God The Father without going through Christ. Whether you believe this or not won’t change this absolute truth. Reading The Word and being filled with the Holy Spirit are absolutely necessary. In John 6, Christ Says we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. That means read The Word and be filled with the Holy Spirit. You might recall that Christ is The Word made flesh. Going through this understanding is difficult but true. The Holy Spirit is His life’s blood.

 

[martymonster]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

Following the spirit, and not the letter, is my greatest resource.

 

[Hmm]

A question for those who are researching or who have converted to Universalism. What has helped you most? Share any resources you have found helpful.

One thing that drew me to universalism was this quote from Augustine, a clear non-universalist, which reveals that it was a rather popular doctrine of the early church. He, in the fifth century, rather dismissively writes:

"It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express literal truth."
— Augustine, Enchiridion, sec. 112.

The historian Ilaria Ramelli notes that when Augustine described the Universalists as "indeed very many" (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a "vast majority" (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11). That is what the Latin word plurimi, from the adjective plurimus, implies.

So although Augustine himself didn’t affirm this doctrine (although he did at one point), he at least recognized that universalism, or the "theory of apokatastasis," was quite an influential doctrine in his day and the centuries that preceded him.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

While I may disagree with some of the interpretations that Universalists have of a few bits of the Bible, I don't think its charitable to characterize fellow Trinitarian Christians as serpentine liars. I'm sure that in our individual reading of the Bible, you could cite several things you disagree with me over, and I could do the same to you. Is it really going to bring us all closer to Christ if we haggle with each other in such a way that we essentially stop seeing each other as fellow human beings?

I would disagree. I believe it is charitable to be honest and tell the truth. For example, it someone is drunk and falls asleep in a railway track while walking home and you come across this person sleeping and know a train is coming in 10mins do you leave them there to sleep because you do not want to wake them up or do you wake them up and help them off the railway track knowing if they stay sleeping there they will get run over by the coming train. - Jesus is coming. If you love someone you are not going to let them sleep on the railway track because you do not want to wake them up knowing a train is coming to run them over. There is no more second chances after the second coming. His reward is with him. Revelation 22:12 - see also John 3:36.

Take Care.

 

[wendykvw]

One thing that drew me to universalism was this quote from Augustine, a clear non-universalist, which reveals that it was a rather popular doctrine of the early church. He, in the fifth century, rather dismissively writes:

"It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express literal truth."
— Augustine, Enchiridion, sec. 112.

The historian Ilaria Ramelli notes that when Augustine described the Universalists as "indeed very many" (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a "vast majority" (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11). That is what the Latin word plurimi, from the adjective plurimus, implies.

So although Augustine himself didn’t affirm this doctrine (although he did at one point), he at least recognized that universalism, or the "theory of apokatastasis," was quite an influential doctrine in his day and the centuries that preceded him.

Thank you for sharing. Did you come from a previous tradition? At the time you discovered the quote were you actively searching for anything in particular?