Exploring the Relationship Between Adam's Initial Immortality and the Age of the Earth

[The Barbarian]

The question is before the fall were Adama and Even meant to die physically.

Not so long as they had access to the Tree of Life, which would keep their mortal bodies living. God mentions this in Genesis, and takes steps to prevent it, after the fall:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

 

[stevevw]

As God makes clear in Genesis, the death is a spiritual one, not a physical one. He tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam eats, and yet lives on physically for many years thereafter. If God is truthful, then the death He mentioned cannot be physical death.

That's not what God said. If God is truthful, that death happened the same day. So we know it can't be a physical death.

I agree that the fall brought a spiritual death as that is what Christ came to restablish our spiritual relationship with God. The second Adam.

But the question is if Adam and Eve did not sin would they have been subject to physical death. It seems to me Gods creation before the fall was perfect and good and untainted by the fall. The fall set in motion entropy and if not for Christs restoration Gods creation is heading for decay and destruction.

Perhaps in God saying that they would surely die also included physical death as Christ came to defeat that physical death that came with the fall.

 

[stevevw]

Not so long as they had access to the Tree of Life, which would keep their mortal bodies living. God mentions this in Genesis, and takes steps to prevent it, after the fall:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Yes so I think once they sinned this severed the tree of life. The act of sin not only caused a spiritual death in the seperation of us from God. But it must have also caused reality itself to change, to exist within a decaying reality that was headed towards chaos. Part of that was death and and all the horror we inflict on each other to cause death.

Through Gods grace Christ has restored Gods kingdom to us even here on earth if we accept it and in that way we have overcome physical death because we will be restored to God spiritually. Whereas those who reject God will be subject to death. Though I think this is a spiritual death.

But part of Christs restoration is that the material world we exist in that death happens in will also be done away with. So we will be restored to Gods kingdom which is not of this world.

Also doesn't the bible say that we will be given new bodies and a new heaven and earth as though this is physical as well. Like we are back in the garden once again. Not necessarily Eden in the Arabian delta but some physical paradise.

 

[Semper-Fi]

And Adam's name, "adam" in Hebrew, is humanity. That's what it means. He is the archetype for mankind.

Genesis 5:5
and all the days that [humanity lived] were nine hundred
and thirty years: and [humanity died]? This does not work.

We sin because he first sinned.

People sin by breaking Gods Laws.

 

[johansen]

Genesis 5:5
and all the days that [humanity lived] were nine hundred
and thirty years: and [humanity died]? This does not work.

People forget you cant back date the meaning of words.

The torah was compiled and translated during the Babylon captivity and we have but a few scraps of a handful of just mere characters of the language 800 year prior.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis 5:5
and all the days that [humanity lived] were nine hundred
and thirty years: and [humanity died]? This does not work.

People sin by breaking Gods Laws.

Earlier uses of Adam did not have the definite article. For example, in Genesis 1, God created adam, he made them made and female. And his name does in fact mean "humanity". Paul even references him as a type of the one who is to come. He is used typologically. That's why Genesis 1:27 sometimes uses "mankind".

Or Genesis 1:26 says, let us make adam in our image.

But that doesn't mean that Adam, the individual, was made in God's image. It means that all of humanity was.

 

[Job 33:6]

People forget you cant back date the meaning of words.

The torah was compiled and translated during the Babylon captivity and we have but a few scraps of a handful of just mere characters of the language 800 year prior.

Every Hebrew lexicon that anyone even uses, defines adam as the Hebrew word for "humanity". That's just a fact. And the earliest uses of adam in the Bible are not talking about an individual. That's why so many translations use "humanity" or "mankind". Such as in Genesis 1:26-27.

So I'm hoping that you're not disagreeing with 99.99% of Bible translations and scholarship.

Adams name, in Hebrew, means "humanity". He is an archetype for humanity. And everyone knows this. And Eve is too. In Hebrew her name means "life". These are Hebrew words.

Examples that translate Adam as "mankind" or "humankind".

Genesis 1:26 NIV
[26] Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Genesis 1:27 LEB
[27] So God created humankind in his image, in the likeness of God he created him, male and female he created them.

Genesis 1:26 NET
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”

Genesis 1:26 NRSV
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

And even more word for word translations are written by translators that know this. NASB and ESV for example just say "God created man". They don't say "God created the man, Adam, in His image". Right, because even though in Hebrew it says "God created adam", that's not what it means.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Every Hebrew lexicon that anyone even uses, defines Adam as the Hebrew word for "humanity". That's just a fact.

The fact remains; Adam was the first male human.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The fact remains; Adam was the first male human.

Theologically, yes; historically, not necessarily.

But even if Adam wasn't the first historical person, that doesn't mean the inherent prophetic message given by Moses and the early Hebrews somehow goes 'poof' into thin air.

 

[Semper-Fi]

If God is truthful, then the death He mentioned cannot be physical death.

The death referred there is [the second death], not the first death.

 

[Job 33:6]

The fact remains; Adam was the first male human.

Biologically, that's not necessarily true. Nor textually in the Bible. The Bible doesn't clarify the matter. It just says that God created humanity.

Adam theologically is first. Beyond that, it's speculation.

 

[Semper-Fi]

The Bible doesn't clarify the matter. It just says that God created humanity.

Adam theologically is first. Beyond that, it's speculation.

all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

 

[Job 33:6]

all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

And? Abraham lived and died too. Doesn't mean that he was biologically the first human being.

Adam, the individual isn't mentioned in Genesis 1 if that's what you're trying to argue against. The text merely states that God created mankind. Or in Hebrew "adam". But that's not a personal name in Genesis 1. Hence why no Bible translation ever says that God created the man, Adam, in Genesis 1.

People assume that Adam and Eve are in Genesis 1. But in fact, the Hebrew is ambiguous. It just doesn't clarify who all is included as "mankind" or "humanity", "man" etc.

 

[The Barbarian]

The death referred there is [the second death], not the first death.

That's the death that Adam brought into the world; the spiritual death that came from disobeying God.

 

[johansen]

Every Hebrew lexicon that anyone even uses, defines adam as the Hebrew word for "humanity". That's just a fact

But where are the pre 600bc sources for that definition (or any other claim, such as the meanings of other peoples names)

 

[Job 33:6]

But where are the pre 600bc sources for that definition (or any other claim, such as the meanings of other peoples names)

It's right there in the Bible. I don't understand what you mean. Just open up to Genesis 1:26-27. Do you see Adams name mentioned there anywhere?

 

[johansen]

It's right there in the Bible. I don't understand what you mean. Just open up to Genesis 1:26-27. Do you see Adams name mentioned there anywhere?

In which case you could still argue that the text says God made humanity...And then breathed a living soul into adam, which made for two clases of people. Those with living souls and those who dont.

Its a very useful teaching to keep a certain people and culture separate from the less than human gentiles.

Still doesnt help answer the question: does adam's name mean mankind or was he the first actual human with a living soul?

 

[Job 33:6]

In which case you could still argue that the text says God made humanity...And then breathed a living soul into adam, which made for two clases of people. Those with living souls and those who dont.

Huh? What are you talking about?

In Hebrew, adam means humanity. That's why Genesis 1:26-27 translations say, God created mankind or humanity. They don't say "God created Adam" as a proper noun.

 

[Job 33:6]

Still doesnt help answer the question: does adam's name mean mankind or was he the first actual human with a living soul?

Alright. So first and foremost, it is a fact that in Hebrew, adam means humanity. And that's just a plain fact of Hebrew. And it's very plainly present in the Bible. This isn't debatable. If you didn't know that, you do now. But this isn't up for debate, it just is what it is.

On to the second question, adam does mean mankind. Indeed the answer to the above question could be both. But actually, some more nuance, Adam does not receive a living soul, rather he became a living soul. And both topics may be simultaneously true. Adam represents humanity typologically. Adam has a soul, or is a living soul, and so to do all of humanity whom he represents.