Exploring Lutheranism

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Recently ive been trying trying to learn more about what Lutherans believe. I have some questions, and i was hoping i could get some answers. Ive always been a big fan of Martin Luther but have never really been able to wrap my mind around the theology and how Lutherans today practice there faith. Allot of that has to do with living in Nova Scotia and Lutheran church are rare to even non existent, so I have never actually met a Lutheran i can discuss these things with. My background is a mix of Baptist and Presbyterian and i have good understanding of Calvinist Theology. So here are my questions:

-What are some of the most distinctive beliefs for Lutherans, that separate them from Calvinist and other Protestant Churches? If a Calvinist and Lutheran Theologian got together what things would they disagree on?

-Pietism when reading about the Lutheran Church it comes up allot i think i understand what it was, but could someone explain to me in laymen terms what it was? Also is Pietism still alive among Confessing Lutherans, what role does it have in the modern church today?

- Are there Confessing Lutherans who would consider themselves evangelical (Billy Graham high view of scripture ect Evangelical , not ELCA evangelical.) or do WELS, LCMS shun the evangelical movement as whole?

Sorry if these are allot of questions I'm just trying to understand modern Lutherans, and how they differ from my own beliefs.

 

[Aibrean]

Read the Book of Concord, then come back.

- The Book of Concord goes over your first point
- Works do not save us, nor do they grant us any merit. Works are the result of our faith. Pietism for Lutherans is just exemplifying what is taught in the Bible, at least from my perspective. I don't really know about the Pietism movement enough to say anything definitive.
- Lutherans view salvation a bit differently from other groups which is why it might seem as though we look down on modern evangelical movements. The Holy Spirit is what draws us to Christ through our hearing of the gospel. We are just enablers for the Holy Spirit. We do not save. Christ saves. Christ gives us the power to believe.

 

[tagyourit]

I'll chime in as someone who is still somewhat Calvinist/Presbyterian :O and looking at Lutheranism. Also, when my interest in Lutheranism began, I shopped around the local used book stores and found some used, but good, solid Lutheran literature which included a Book of Concord ( BoC ). You will benefit more from actually reading it than poking around here and there. At times, I find it an easier read than the Westminster documents.

In my comparison of Lutheranism to other denoms, I'm only stating those with which I have either personally experienced or have read/studied. It may be helpful to note that the ELCA is equivalent to PCUSA in terms of liberal and conservative beliefs and biblical adherence. The LCMS would be similar to the PCA and WELS to the OPC.

The "big" things to that I've noticed is Lutherans believe in a real presence in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. I've read this elsewhere as sacred union, which differs from transubstantiation of the RCC. Presbyterians believe that Christ is really present in the sacrament, but only spiritually because he is bodily in heaven. Baptists take even yet another step backward and say it's only a memorial and we as believers are not fed or nourished through the meal.

Baptism is another one...I think Lutherans believe that saving grace is communicated or conferred to the infant during the sacrament. They don't believe that baptism saves, that it's always faith that saves, but somehow that faith is given? I'm still working through this myself. The LCMS site has some good stuff written if you want to learn more.

In baptism, a Calvin/Presby might say they don't know for sure or they tend to lean heavily on "covenant promises" and hope for the best. A wet dedication if you will.

I believe Lutherans believe that Confession/Absolution is also a sacrament.

Most "confessional" Lutherans have retained their historic liturgy whereas a lot of this was thrown out ( literally ) by those in the family line of Presbyterians and Baptists. Speaking of historic, the church calendar and the commemoration of "saints".

I think the Lutherans view it as not harmful and not unbiblical, so it's ok. Calvinism said that if it ain't in the Bible, we can't do it, Lutherans say if it says we can't, then we can ( within reason of course ).

Lutheran gov't is different than Presbyterianism as well. I think it will vary more from church to church whereas in Presby you will have your local session of elders, they report to their regional presbytery and they in turn talk to GA. The LCMS has a President who I think has the ability to set the course/direction of the entire denomination through programs, committees, appointments, etc. A bishop or sorts??

Not sure about Pietism. I think Lutherans use the word differently than the way I've heard it used previous. Not in a "oh look how they live such holy and pious lives" but diff somehow.

Confessional Lutherans are a Doctrines of Grace bunch, so I think they are solid biblically.

When it comes to evangelism, they remind me a lot of my presbyterian friends, but less so In other words, I've noticed more evangelism from individual Baptist, non-denom types instead of Presbyterian or Lutheran. However, from the confessional Lutherans I read/listen to ( pastors and laymen ) I've never heard the Gospel spoken more by another group.

The Presbyterians I listen to and read seemed more concerned about their doctrines and systems of theology. The baptists more concerned with winning souls and politics. Non denoms worship. Confessional Lutherans...gospel, gospel, gospel.

 

[Tangible]

Nova Scotian, I can't recommend highly enough the book in the link below. It was the first thing my pastor gave me to read when we started visiting our LCMS church and it does a wonderful job of introducing today's North American Evangelicals to the original Evangelicals - the Confessional Lutheran Church.

Amazon.com: Spirituality of the Cross Revised Edition (9780758613035): Gene Edward Veith: Books

 

[DaRev]

The "big" things to that I've noticed is Lutherans believe in a real presence in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. I've read this elsewhere as sacred union, which differs from transubstantiation of the RCC. Presbyterians believe that Christ is really present in the sacrament, but only spiritually because he is bodily in heaven. Baptists take even yet another step backward and say it's only a memorial and we as believers are not fed or nourished through the meal.

It is true that Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ's body and blood in, with and under the elements of bread and wine as the Scriptures teach. This sacramental union occurs when Christ unites His word with the elements in the context of the Mass. The Bible doesn't explain how this mystery occurs so we don't attempt to explain as the RCC has tried to do with their doctrine of transubstantiation.

Baptism is another one...I think Lutherans believe that saving grace is communicated or conferred to the infant during the sacrament. They don't believe that baptism saves, that it's always faith that saves, but somehow that faith is given? I'm still working through this myself. The LCMS site has some good stuff written if you want to learn more.

Baptism does indeed save us as the Scriptures teach in 1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 16:16. Lutherans teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation, but not absolutely necessary. For example, if someone was never brought to baptism as a child but believes in Christ and desired baptism and yet dies before doing so, that person is not necessarily condemned. Some one who claims to believe in Christ and yet refuses to be baptized cannot be a true believer since it is by faith that we are brought to baptism.

I believe Lutherans believe that Confession/Absolution is also a sacrament.

The Lutheran definition of a Sacrament has three elements. One, it is instituted by Christ. Two, it conveys the forgiveness of sins. And three, it includes a physical element. Based upon this definition there are two Sacraments: Baptism and the Lord's Supper. Some consider Absolution a sacrament even though there is no physical element, but in reality it is tied to our Baptism. Absolution is sacramental in nature.

Most "confessional" Lutherans have retained their historic liturgy whereas a lot of this was thrown out ( literally ) by those in the family line of Presbyterians and Baptists. Speaking of historic, the church calendar and the commemoration of "saints".

I think the Lutherans view it as not harmful and not unbiblical, so it's ok. Calvinism said that if it ain't in the Bible, we can't do it, Lutherans say if it says we can't, then we can ( within reason of course ).

The use of liturgy varies within Lutheranism. Many are strictly liturgical while others are more low church in their worship approach.

Lutherans do indeed follow the liturgical calendar. And we do also remember the saints at specific times during the year. We do not venerate, worship, or pray to them since this is a violation of the First Commandment, but we do look to them for their example of faithful living.

Lutheran gov't is different than Presbyterianism as well. I think it will vary more from church to church whereas in Presby you will have your local session of elders, they report to their regional presbytery and they in turn talk to GA. The LCMS has a President who I think has the ability to set the course/direction of the entire denomination through programs, committees, appointments, etc. A bishop or sorts??

Some Lutheran church bodies maintain an episcopal polity with bishops and a top down governance. Others, including the LCMS and WELS, are congregational in polity. The Scriptures teach that the Church exists with the gathering of believers. The BoC defines the Church as existing where the Gospel is preached in its purity and the sacraments are administered according to Christ's institution. This exists at the congregational level. The LCMS has districts (similar to diocese in the RCC). Each district has a president who is also an ordianed clergyman. They act in many ways as bishops in their ecclesiatical oversight, but they do not govern the congregations. The national church body (Synod) also has a president with much the same responsibility among the synod at large.

Not sure about Pietism. I think Lutherans use the word differently than the way I've heard it used previous. Not in a "oh look how they live such holy and pious lives" but diff somehow.

The pietism movement in Lutheranism ram from the 17th to the mid 18th centuries. It's focus was more on rigid pious living. Among the effects of this movement was the formation of the Prussian Union, which was the forced uniting of Lutheran and Reformed churches in Germany. Many orthodox Lutherans resisted this which resulted in the formation of free churches and the emmigration of many, including two individuals - Martin Stephan and CFW Walther - who were directly involved in founding what is now the LCMS.

Confessional Lutherans are a Doctrines of Grace bunch, so I think they are solid biblically.

When it comes to evangelism, they remind me a lot of my presbyterian friends, but less so In other words, I've noticed more evangelism from individual Baptist, non-denom types instead of Presbyterian or Lutheran. However, from the confessional Lutherans I read/listen to ( pastors and laymen ) I've never heard the Gospel spoken more by another group.

The Presbyterians I listen to and read seemed more concerned about their doctrines and systems of theology. The baptists more concerned with winning souls and politics. Non denoms worship. Confessional Lutherans...gospel, gospel, gospel.

Confessional Lutherans uphold the proper distinction of Law and Gospel. Lutheran sermons will include both, as the Law is meant to bring us down to repentance, and the Gospel is meant to lift us up to forgiveness and eternal life.

 

[alexnbethmom]

Nova Scotian, I can't recommend highly enough the book in the link below. It was the first thing my pastor gave me to read when we started visiting our LCMS church and it does a wonderful job of introducing today's North American Evangelicals to the original Evangelicals - the Confessional Lutheran Church.

re: the book Spirituality of the Cross - i concur....excellent book....(can't re-post the link, i don't have enough posts yet)

 

[tagyourit]

DaRev, thanks for that. I have been hoping to get a clearer understanding of Lutheran doctrine.

 

[Aibrean]

Law and gospel is also a part of Lutheran evangelism. Law has a tendency to be put shelved in other evangelism. You can't have law without the gospel and you can't have the gospel without the law. They need each other.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

I know that Calvinism has spread to other denominations other then the original Calvinists and is know common among Baptists, Pentecostals ect. Has Lutheran Theology and thought had a similar effect, in other denominations. I hear very little to nothing about Lutheran beliefs outside of Lutheran circles. Are there any Baptists, Pentecostals, ect that adhere to Lutheran ideas?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Nova Scotian, I can't recommend highly enough the book in the link below. It was the first thing my pastor gave me to read when we started visiting our LCMS church and it does a wonderful job of introducing today's North American Evangelicals to the original Evangelicals - the Confessional Lutheran Church.

Amazon.com: Spirituality of the Cross Revised Edition (9780758613035): Gene Edward Veith: Books

Indeed, you should get this book.

I know that Calvinism has spread to other denominations other then the original Calvinists and is know common among Baptists, Pentecostals ect. Has Lutheran Theology and thought had a similar effect, in other denominations. I hear very little to nothing about Lutheran beliefs outside of Lutheran circles. Are there any Baptists, Pentecostals, ect that adhere to Lutheran ideas?

Well, some very conservative Anglicans are "virtually" Lutheran in most respects. Reformed protestants quote Luther frequently... when it suits them (as does the ELCIC).

I would suggest talking to a Confessional Lutheran Church Canada Pastor. I will send you a link to our LCC website, the LCC East District website, and contact info for Rev. David Milette. He is a great Pastor!

Mark

 

[Aibrean]

Pentecostals would freak out just because we drink alcohol.

 

[Scottish Knight]

Presbyterians believe that Christ is really present in the sacrament, but only spiritually because he is bodily in heaven. Baptists take even yet another step backward and say it's only a memorial and we as believers are not fed or nourished through the meal.
.

Hey, that's a bit of a generalisation. This baptist (and I'm not the only one) agrees with the presbyterian understanding of communion. You can't tar all baptists with the same brush

 

[Aibrean]

We are going with the doctrines of the church rather than individual. Can you even be called a baptist if you don't believe communion is just a symbol? What makes a baptist a baptist?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

eformed protestants quote Luther frequently... when it suits them.

Pentecostals would freak out just because we drink alcohol.

Hey, that's a bit of a generalisation. This baptist (and I'm not the only one) agrees with the presbyterian understanding of communion. You can't tar all baptists with the same brush

In my City there are two Baptist Congregations. One markedly Calvinist, the other Arminian. Like with Luther they pick and choose the teachings. The Calvinism extends only as far as their beliefs regarding Soeterology.

Well, there are exceptions... The Pentecost Congregation in my City drinks (my brother-in-laws Church) as do one of the two Baptist Congregations. About Half the Mennonite and Amish do as well. Some pietist Lutherans do not.

That brings to mind a "Luther" quote; "I eat like a Bohemian and drink beer like a German. Thank God. Amen!" (Not official Doctrine BTW)

Traditional Methodists (very Arminian in doctrine and practice) also believe in the a "supernatural" or "spiritual" reception of Christ's body and blood; however the remnants of Methodism, The United Church of Canada seem to believe everything... and nothing; and teach little about anything.

 

[Scottish Knight]

We are going with the doctrines of the church rather than individual. Can you even be called a baptist if you don't believe communion is just a symbol? What makes a baptist a baptist?

A good question! It has to be remembered that baptists are not a true denomination but a collection of independent congregations. Many of these congegations have decided to join together with like-minded congregations to form unions. The only real point of unity between all baptists is really the principles of credobaptism and congregational church government. Some early Baptist statements of belief do include the belief of a real spiritual communion with Christ during communion. Most modern baptist churches merely hold that there are two ordinances and don't go into too much theological detail in their official statement of beliefs hence often a wide range of beliefs even within the same congregation. But I can say that there are quite a lot of baptists who agree with the presbyterians in the Lords supper, at least where I come from.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Nova Scotian, I can't recommend highly enough the book in the link below. It was the first thing my pastor gave me to read when we started visiting our LCMS church and it does a wonderful job of introducing today's North American Evangelicals to the original Evangelicals - the Confessional Lutheran Church.

Thank You, I read the introduction available on Amazon and it really drew me in. I want to read it but non of the public library's nor the university library has it and Im not really in the position to order any new books right now so it will have to wait. But i look forward to reading it.

Ive read through much of the book of Concord, i was especially impressed my the catechism which i felt was very easy to understand. And I've read several articles on the LCMS website. And one thing still really confuses me and several hear have mentioned it already is Baptism. Do Lutherans believe baptism gives a infant salvation. It seems contradictory when Luther placed so much importance on grace alone through faith. If a child from a Lutheran family is baptized and grows up and denounces Christ and later dies will they go to heaven since they had been baptized as a infant? Similarly so would a child from a Lutheran family who dies at the age of two be considered bound for heaven because of its baptism. I don't with to offend my Lutheran brothers and sisters in Christ I'm just really bewildered by Lutheran ideas of baptism.

 

[RadMan]

Read entire article here.
Sermons and Papers

".....................Worldwide, there are some 60,000,000 Lutherans on the books, making it the largest Protestant tradition of them all. There are around 9 million Lutherans in the United States, but five million in Africa and another five million in Asia -- Brazil has over a million, and it is one of the dominant religions of Papua New Guinea. In the United States, there are about the same number of Missouri Synod Lutherans (2.5 million) than there are Episcopalians.
And yet, the Lutheran church seems almost unknown in American Christianity. Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Charismatics, and Calvinists are well-represented in theological debates, opinion polls, and articles in Christian publications, but Lutherans -- who have their own distinctive approach to everything from salvation to politics -- are often theological wallflowers................."





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[tagyourit]

Well, some very conservative Anglicans are "virtually" Lutheran in most respects. Reformed protestants quote Luther frequently... when it suits them (as does the ELCIC).

Mark

This happens in our PCA ( Presbyterian Church in American ) congregation. Also, Redeemer PCA in Austin, TX calls their worship service "Divine Service" and in the family devotions which incorporate prayer from a Lutheran Prayer book.

Our pastor reads and quotes Luther often. In the sacraments, there are times where he just says what it is and doesn't try to explain it away and he sounds more Lutheran than Calvinist.

And recently, say the last 1.5 - 2 years, he will at times have a Law/Gospel flavor in his sermons.

 

[tagyourit]

Hey, that's a bit of a generalization. This baptist (and I'm not the only one) agrees with the Presbyterian understanding of communion. You can't tar all baptists with the same brush

So true. I tried to qualify all my statements by saying these are my own experiences. In particular with a local southern baptist church ( I was baptized in a baptist church and remained for a few years while in college ) and have known more than one baptist that will say communion is not necessary and even when it's done, it doesn't mean/do anything.

 

[Tangible]

Do Lutherans believe baptism gives a infant salvation. It seems contradictory when Luther placed so much importance on grace alone through faith. If a child from a Lutheran family is baptized and grows up and denounces Christ and later dies will they go to heaven since they had been baptized as a infant? Similarly so would a child from a Lutheran family who dies at the age of two be considered bound for heaven because of its baptism. I don't with to offend my Lutheran brothers and sisters in Christ I'm just really bewildered by Lutheran ideas of baptism.

One reason credobaptists have trouble understanding the biblical (Lutheran ) view of baptism is that they impose their invalid doctrine of OSAS. Lutherans agree with scripture that those who have been given the gift of faith may, after prolonged and persistent unbelief and denial of Christ, come to lose their faith once given them by God.

The bible clearly teaches that Baptism saves, yet no work of man is sufficient to earn salvation. Therefore, Baptism is a work of God; a means (but not the only means) by which he graciously bestows his gift of saving faith.

Infant baptism is the perfect picture of how we must receive our salvation from God completely passively - like a little child - with no thought of deserving, earning or decisions on our part.