Explaining the Trinity

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

John 3


5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Just dropping in...

Has anyone "explained" the Trinity yet? If so, I'm pleased as punch, (I been working on this one a lifetime), please direct me to the specific post. I'd just love to be able to comprehend God.

I'm aware the belief in God as triune was Jewish before it was Christian, however.

 

[Willtor]

Oh, OK

No worries. But seriously, there's no point in misrepresenting people with whom you are arguing a point.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT​

Closing this thread for staff review and clean up.​

This is General Theology. Discussion opposing the doctrine of the Trinity belong in Unorthodox Theology and NOT here.​

 

[TimRout]

MOD HAT ON
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clean up following staff action. To reiterate
FreeinChrist, nonTrinitarian theology must be
kept to the Unorthodox Theology Forum.
Staff have sought to be gracious with violators
this time, but we caution nonTrinitarians
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Thread reopened. The discussion may continue.
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[Mathetes the kerux]

It's an article of faith that most people here believe in the Trinity. That God is One God in three equal, eternal, fully Divine persons- Father , Son and Holy Spirit.

But:

1) Could you begin to demonstrate that the Bible actually teaches the Trinity even though it never uses the word

2) Could you provide an Old Testament defence of this? Why is their no awareness of this idea before Christ in the Jewish community?

3) What does the Trinity say about the nature of God- what insight does it give us into God?

4) What does it mean for our Christian lives to believe in a Trinitarian God as opposed to a Monotheistic one like the Jews or Muslims believe in? How does believing in the Trinity distinguish us from Polytheists also?

5) With what simple analogies would you try and explain the Trinity to someone else?

Trinity starts with some basic questions, which are:

Is the Father called God? Yes

Is the Son called God? Yes

Is the Spirit called God? Yes

But they Scriptures says there is ONE God? Yes

ergo, one must come to some sort of schematic to work this conundrum out.

The only philosophical options are Trinitarianism or Modalism (oneness, Jesus only).

IMO, Trinitarianism reconciles all the passages sufficiently . . . Modalism doesnt.

The biblical defense starts with supporting each of the questions above.

2) Could you provide an Old Testament defence of this? Why is their no awareness of this idea before Christ in the Jewish community?

Not too much. There is a plurality in God in the plural pronouns of Genesis and Isaiah. There is also the two YHWH's in Genesis. But one should not be surprised at a lack of the revelation as revelation is progressive. Take reusurrection for example . .. VERY little in the OT, yet profoundly apparent in the NT.

more later

 

[student ad x]

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This thread is closed. Staff is reviewing the thread...... AGAIN!

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[JacktheCatholic]

MOD HAT ON


Staff clean up complete. Thread moved to Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology.



MOD HAT OFF​

 

[janwoG]

Dear brother Kenc J,
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Could Paul be more clear that the only "personhood" God has is in Christ, and that philosophy only contradicts that essential truth?[/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']If Jesus called His Father Abba, He witnesses that the Father is a Person. Jesus would call Him En Sof the Eternal, if it would be a impersonal Spiritual State. If in the great commission, He linked Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and were the only Person, He wouldn't call Himself Abba. Let us pray that the Holy Ghost leads us on the way of the Messiah towards the Father.[/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Peace and blessings[/FONT]

 

[Simonline]

It's an article of faith that most people here believe in the Trinity. That God is One God in three equal, eternal, fully Divine persons- Father , Son and Holy Spirit.

But:

1) Could you begin to demonstrate that the Bible actually teaches the Trinity even though it never uses the word

The term 'Trinity' is a theological rather than Biblical term developed by the Church during the third and fourth centuries to encapsulate and crystalize all that the Church had come to believe about God in light of the Messiah/Christ as the human incarnation of YHWH. Having concluded that the Messiah really was the human incarnation of YHWH they then had to rethink how they understood YHWH in the light of this latest (and greatest) revelation [Heb.1]. Simply because the term is not Biblical does not mean that the concept(s) that the term conveys are not to be found throughout the Scriptures either.

2) Could you provide an Old Testament defence of this? Why is their no awareness of this idea before Christ in the Jewish community?

Says who?! See: Yoel Natan's excellent work The Jewish Trinity Amazon.com: The Jewish Trinity (9781593300685): Yoel Natan: Books

3) What does the Trinity say about the nature of God- what insight does it give us into God?

It tells us that whilst we as human creatures are made in the likeness of the Divine Creator (Gen.1:26-27) the Divine Creator Himself is far from being a bigger (mono-personal) version of us. We are made in His likeness. He is NOT made in ours.

The Scriptures reveal that there is but ONE God Who exists as Tri-Personal [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] rather than Mono-Personal like His mono-personal human creatures (schizophrenia not withstanding). Since this One God is both Eternal and Immutable then it stands to reason that this God is both Eternally and Immutably Tri-Personal and did not simply 'become' Tri-Personal (a fundamental denial of His essential Immutability) for the benefit of His Creation.

Furthermore, Existing as Tri-Personal, God can, with complete integrity, declare Himself to be Love (1Jn.4:8,16) something no mono-personal 'god' could ever do.

4) What does it mean for our Christian lives to believe in a Trinitarian God as opposed to a Monotheistic one like the Jews or Muslims believe in? How does believing in the Trinity distinguish us from Polytheists also?

Just because YHWH Exists as Tri-Personal does NOT mean that He is not Monotheistic but it does mean that He is NOT Mono-Personal.

Were YHWH mono-personal then He would also be a hypocritical murderer since, having told His human creatures that murder is wrong (Ex.20:13), He would then be guilty of having murdered the human Messiah (Isa.53:10(a)) in a vain attempt to redeem his sinful creation which would have resulted in making Him a hypocritical sinner just like His creatures?! However, since YHWH is NOT mono-personal but IS Tri-Personal, in sacrificing the Messiah, as the human incarnation of Himself, for the sins of the world, YHWH is NOT murdering 'another' (i.e. someone 'other' than Himself) instead He is sacrificing HIMSELF as the supreme act of Love (Jn.15:13; 1Jn.4:8,16) and thus is in no way to be regarded as a hypocritical murderer. In other words...No Trinity = No gospel.

5) With what simple analogies would you try and explain the Trinity to someone else?

None whatsoever since they would all be deficient and/or defective (Isa.40:6-29).

Simonline.

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

Hi All. Im not sure if anyone mentioned this but I jsut thought this is kinda cool.


Isaiah 48:12,13 & 16

"Hearken unto me, Jacob, and thou Israel, my called. I am HE; I, the first, and I, the last. Yea, my hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spread abroad the heavens: I call unto them, they stand up together."
"16)...Come near unto me, hear ye this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit."

First, "The first and the last"...is Key right here....Who is Alpha and Omega?
Also, I think, i could be wrong, but i think God (in verse 12&13) says...

That his hand lays the foundation, THEN he makes a distinction and says AND my Right hand hath spread abroad the heavens.

So Left, THEN Right.

And then Jehovah Calls Out to them(the Two hands) and they stand up together.

So right there its saying something.

Then in verse 16, Then Lord says,

"From the time that it was, There IAM, and now the Lord Jehovah(1) hath sent me(2), AND HIS(1) Spirit(3)

Jehovah, IAM, and HIS Spirit...that is three distinct persons, yet interchangeble....
There IS a trinity...yet there is NOT a trinity....

God and his two arms. ONE God, Two arms.

And YET, the Arm of God, the Right hand of God(Jesus...Who is also the word of God, the wisdom...so many others...the Glory...) Is ALSO God himself.
Does that confuse us? Yeah sometimes...but thats where faith comes in, and HIS spirit and truth.

The IAM, son of Jehovah, yet IS Jehovah says in Chapter 45:19

"I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth; I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek me in vain: I am Jehovah, speaking righteousness, declaring things which are right."

"I have not spoken in secret...IAM JEHOVAH"(45:19)

"I have not spoken in secret...There IAM and Now the LORD Jehovah sent me"(48:16)

So we see that The Lord Jehovah is speaking in chapter 45, and then the Lord jehovah is speaking almost the same things in chapter 48, YET says Jehovah sent HIM....(I and the Father are ONE)

Isaiah 63:1 goes on to say

"Who is this that cometh from Edom, with deep-red garments from Bozrah, this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save"

Well who is speaking? Jehovah is speaking. He asks "Who is this...?"

Then the He says it is I speaking in righteousness and mighty to save!

Revelation 19:13 "and he is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God."

So Trinity? YES, yet, NO... Anyone have anythoughts on that?

 

[LutheranMafia]

I think that everyone is missing the boat. We all have a perfect analogy of the Trinity in ourselves. Since we are all made in the image of God we should naturally have 3 parts too, and we do: body, soul and spirit. We have three minds in one being just like God. Most people are out of sync with their other two minds and so a person's spirit can actually act against his own conscious aims, especially when someone is drawn to sin.

 

[Willtor]

I think that everyone is missing the boat. We all have a perfect analogy of the Trinity in ourselves. Since we are all made in the image of God we should naturally have 3 parts too, and we do: body, soul and spirit. We have three minds in one being just like God. Most people are out of sync with their other two minds and so a person's spirit can actually act against his own conscious aims, especially when someone is drawn to sin.

If we have three parts, then that is decidedly _not_ an image of the Trinity. The Trinity is not God in three parts. God is indivisible in being, or it could not be said that God is the Father, or that God is the Son, or that God is the Holy Spirit.

Would you say that you are your body? Would you say that you are your soul? Would you say that you are your spirit?

 

[RibI]

Wait, what? It isn't totally clear to me whether you are arguing for or against the Trinity. Your comment at the end sounds like you are arguing against, but these are all passages I would use to make a case for the Trinity.

Therein lies your problem. In these scriptures there is no hint of such.
If you read the rest of the Bible the way you read these scriptures you will never understand any of it.
You can't just make it say what you want it to say.

 

[LutheranMafia]

If we have three parts, then that is decidedly _not_ an image of the Trinity. The Trinity is not God in three parts. God is indivisible in being, or it could not be said that God is the Father, or that God is the Son, or that God is the Holy Spirit.

Do you think that we are divisble in being? I don't. We are one being, not three, yet we have three parts.

Would you say that you are your body? Would you say that you are your soul? Would you say that you are your spirit?

I say we are body, spirit and soul.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Do you think that we are divisble in being? I don't. We are one being, not three, yet we have three parts.

I say we are body, spirit and soul.

Are you a tri-personal being? Because this is what the doctrine of the Trinity says; God is 3 persons, one being. You are not a tri-personal being though, so your analogy is going to fall short at this point (and at other points as well). Another place is that Christian theologians have asserted that God isn't composed of parts, as you seem to think you are. So your analogy is going to have problems here too.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Here is a useful graphic to help explain the Trinity:

What is wrong with simplicity in saying that which everyone in the Bible have said. Leave the word T. out and know Christ as the beloved only son of the Father in Heaven and that we as the Father's children have Christ and the Holy Spirit within us. Why add anything, isn't it complete as it has been since Christ accomplish his Father's will 2,000 years ago?

The evolution of God's word doesn't exist outside of what Christ has finished & accomplish for his Father, yet pollution does exist and is a great danger, spoken & warned about by Apostle Paul, Peter, James, John and in the N.T..

What difference does it matter anyway?! For if it wasn't important enough to be spoken of in the Bible, since the writers of the Bible were busy about the Lord's work and not busy-bodies about word plays, then it isn't important for us to consider. The academic movements of human hearts through their study of logical patterns (theories, theologies, speculations) aren't worth examining. The very words of Jesus, we should meditate upon and eat and become a part of us. Don't fasten your eyes on anything but Jesus Christ by obeying him and following him. This commitment is real. The Trinity commitment & plenty of other similar theology-based ideas are warned about through the Holy Spirit by Jesus' disciples in the NT (I don't remember the verses, but do remember reading about the warnings of what people add or interpret from the Bible, and also that these things were coming in their days, warnings of the anti-Christ's attraction to making Jesus not human and there would be more things added in the near future.)

I have no problem with someone believing in Christ & the Father & the Holy Spirit, and all being one in commitment and nature. Their analogy to us is that we are to be as they and one with each other, not to create some mysticism or new theology. What is wrong with the common sense of being one with another: like the deep love of a father and son, husband and wife, brother and brother, brother and sister, mother and child, and so, us and Christ? I don't think it is wise to make Christ more than human, for the disciples were warned by the Holy Spirit that the antiChrist will be known by doing this. I don't want to offend anyone, but I do extend the warnings of the Holy Spirit speaking through the disciples of Christ of the NT. If you know your Bible then you would know what I am speaking of. God loves courage! This is something that is real. Don't cower to anything that is questionable, especially when it shows a nature not taught by Christ (to kill, to persecute, to hate). There is a reason why we should think of Jesus Christ as a human being, for over and over again, his disciples spoke of this. Somehow, this is part of our teachings from him. Does anyone have courage to speak about this matter? Who gives you your license to fulfill the great commission or teaches you all things? It is the Holy Spirit that does this upon our hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and converting from the world to Jesus' way and nature.

Praise God and his son Jesus Christ.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

If my post about T. was removed, then Christianforums has persecuted me for my faith and surppresses anyone "out of line" (surppresses anything other than it's idea of truth). It has that authority and right, so just remember that when freely talking with one another. A Church is this site, but unfortunately it actively surppresses any member "out of line". If you want to gather together for Christ, maybe there are other sites not so controlling. The family of God is known by their love for each other. Strict control and wiping away the thoughts of others expressed here seems to be the course of all organized religions. Where is God's family? He is with us, though for sure, outside of the confines of these walls!

If you are allowed to hear my words, then have a wonderful day in the Lord our God.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Christianforums has persecuted me for my faith and surppresses anyone "out of line" .

LOL! Really? PERSECUTED you?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Persecution is a serious word. It shouldn't be used lightly. It's an insult to everyone in the world and throughout history who have and do experience persecution.

-CryptoLutheran