Explaining the disastrous “grace-only” doctrine

[frogoon234]

All of what you've written here is uncontroversial. It is basic Christian truth.



What you've offered here is a false dichotomy. These aren't the only two options. Here are some other biblical reasons God conforms His children to the likeness of Christ:

- God wants to glorify Himself in and through us.
- God wants His children to be ambassadors of Christ to a lost and dying world.
- Living like Christ is the best way to live.

And so on.



But being prepared for eternity with God is not the sole reason God works by His Spirit to make us more like Christ.



??? We are supposed to be physically - in body - like Jesus? Women are supposed to become male? Are we all to be the same height as Jesus? Really? Are we supposed to have the same hair and eye color, too? Come on, now, this is silly. When the Bible speaks of being like Christ, it means we are to manifest his holiness, wisdom, love, faithfulness and grace. We are also going to be like him in respect to being raised to a glorified body, free of the corruption and impulses of sin.



This is not how the Bible defines justification and sanctification.



One does not co-operate with the Holy Spirit but submits in humble dependence upon him (Romans 12:1; James 4:7; James 4:10; 1 Peter 5:6, etc). He works in us the character of Christ (Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Galatians 5:22-23, etc.). We simply receive and manifest the life of Christ; we don't create it ourselves. We are not equal partners with the Spirit in our sanctification and transformation. We can only work out what He has first worked into us. (Philippians 2:12-13)



Possibly. But this is by no means certain. See Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

How is Romans chapter 8 saying you have to conform or work your way into heaven after being saved?

It is saying we are justified by Jesus's works not our own.





Romans chapter 8:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[BCsenior]

it is true that without Holiness no one will see the Lord. But it is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that is counted, not our own works that are counted.

Sorry, all of the "sin list" passages in the NT
(about 5 of them) say otherwise!
So, who do you think Hebrews 12:14
is written to (directed at)?
Actually, it's another warning, isn't it?
Look closely.

 

[BCsenior]

How is Romans chapter 8 saying you have to conform or work your way into heaven after being saved?

You don't have to look past verse 1 ...
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You have to walk after the Spirit,
and NOT walk after the flesh.

It's your choice ... you have free will.
God didn't make you a robot.
Look at it as a test.
How are you going to walk?

E.G. habitually sinning is walking after the flesh.
If you do, you are NO longer "in Christ".
And if you do, you are condemned.

The antidote for walking after the flesh
is sincere repentance ... stop doing it.

 

[frogoon234]

Sorry, all of the "sin list" passages in the NT
(about 5 of them) say otherwise!
So, who do you think Hebrews 12:14
is written to (directed at)?
Actually, it's another warning, isn't it?
Look closely.

In response to Hebrews chapter 12:

This passage of Hebrews encourages Christians to "hold fast" (Hebrews 3:6) despite persecutions and hardships. Most of what we face as believers is not as drastic as it could be (Hebrews 12:4), and God uses those experiences to "train" us into a deeper, stronger faith. Prior verses relied on athletic terminology to depict the way we should approach our own spiritual growth (Hebrews 12:11–12).

A common command given in the New Testament is for Christians to seek peace between themselves and others (Romans 12:18; 2 Corinthians 13:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:13). In fact, this capacity to "get along" is tied closely to our spiritual maturity (James 3:17; 1 Timothy 3:3; Galatians 5:22). This is especially important when it comes to relationships between other Christians. Not only does mutual love serve to build up the church, it is a primary sign to the world that we're disciples of Christ (John 13:35; 1 John 3:14; 4:21).

Along with mutual peace, the writer encourages a life of holiness. Again, this is a common theme of New Testament teaching. Christians are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live godly, righteous, moral lives (2 Timothy 1:7). Sin is always the result of rejecting that power, in some way (1 Corinthians 10:13). Those who persist in sin are proving that they don't have the influence of the Holy Spirit in their lives (1 John 1:6).

At the same time, this verse does not mean we're meant to be saved based on our "good behavior." It is impossible for an imperfect, unholy sinner to stand before God (Isaiah 6:5) — we must be perfectly righteous to be in His presence (Exodus 33:19–20). That exact point will be made later in this chapter when the writer refers to God's display at Mount Sinai (Hebrews 12:18–29).

That ability to stand in the presence of God, however, is exactly what we gain from Christ's finished work on our behalf (Hebrews 9:11–12; 1 John 3:2). The holiness we need to "see the Lord" comes from Christ, by His grace, and through our faith in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18). Striving to live according to that standard should be the natural desire of every saved believer (John 14:15).

 

[frogoon234]

You don't have to look past verse 1 ...
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You have to walk after the Spirit,
and NOT walk after the flesh.

It's your choice ... you have free will.
God didn't make you a robot.
Look at it as a test.
How are you going to walk?

E.G. habitually sinning is walking after the flesh.
If you do, you are NO longer "in Christ".
And if you do, you are condemned.

The antidote for walking after the flesh
is sincere repentance ... stop doing it.

First of all speak for yourself about habitually sinning. You stop doing it.

On the rest of what you said "habitually sinning is not walking after the flesh"

Being unregenerate is walking after the flesh as in not being a believer or a christian.

 

[BCsenior]

... habitually sinning is not walking after the flesh ...
Being unregenerate is walking after the flesh as in not being a believer or a christian.

This should serve nicely to disqualify you from any further discussion. Please go back to the drawing board and start over with your studies.

FYI, an enormous percentage of people in N.A. churches are involved in habitual sin, and therefore are NOT on Jesus' narrow road to heaven. They need to repent of (STOP) their sinning and get with God's program toute suite!

These people have been deceived by Satan through their churches!

 

[frogoon234]

This should serve nicely to disqualify you from any further discussion. Please go back to the drawing board and start over with your studies.

ok

 

[frogoon234]

This should serve nicely to disqualify you from any further discussion. Please go back to the drawing board and start over with your studies.

FYI, an enormous percentage of people in N.A. churches are involved in habitual sin, and therefore are NOT on Jesus' narrow road to heaven. They need to repent of (STOP) their sinning and get with God's program toute suite!

These people have been deceived by Satan through their churches!

Too many report people over stuff that is extremely common on all forums including this particular forum. Use extreme discretion with reporting.

 

[aiki]

How is Romans chapter 8 saying you have to conform or work your way into heaven after being saved?

Did I say that Romans 8 said any such thing? No, I didn't. Perhaps you've got your responses crossed up a bit here...

 

[frogoon234]

Did I say that Romans 8 said any such thing? No, I didn't. Perhaps you've got your responses crossed up a bit here...

Maybe i did. I might have highlighted the wrong text or hit the wrong button. Sorry.

 

[aiki]

You don't have to look past verse 1 ...
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You have to walk after the Spirit,
and NOT walk after the flesh.

Where is the "have to" in what Paul wrote here? Where does he use these words? No where. You are forcing your works-salvation onto what he wrote.

E.G. habitually sinning is walking after the flesh.
If you do, you are NO longer "in Christ".
And if you do, you are condemned.

Rubbish. Many new converts, coming out of lives of addiction and long-standing habits of sin, must often struggle long and mightily to win free of their addictions and sinful habits. While they do, they may fall many times to the sin that has beset them, learning in the process, though, how to walk with God and to wage spiritual warfare. Fortunately, "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." (Romans 5:20) God does not let go of those He has gathered into His hand. (John 10:28-29) He will never leave nor forsake those He has brought to salvation (Hebrews 13:5).

The antidote for walking after the flesh
is sincere repentance ... stop doing it.

No, the "antidote" to sin is the daily reckoning of the crucifixion of the "old man." (Romans 6:6; Romans 6:11) When one, in moment-by-moment surrender to God, by faith reckons one's self to be "dead to sin and alive unto God," the Holy Spirit subtly but profoundly conforms one to this reality in how one lives. Just "stop doing it" is unbiblical advice at best.

 

[nolidad]

In light of all the many dire warnings in the NT,
one may indeed lose his/her salvation.
Some of these verses are in this thread ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Well I will try to give a lengthier answer when I have more time. Some of yours are because you do not understand the action of the verb.

Some are just suffering corruption in this life.

Some are those who develop a habitual consistent pattern of sin and become controlled by8 that sin instead of the Holy Spirit.

And others are the Apostle questioning whether people actually go t saved at all!

Do you believe if a child of God, inhabited by the Holy Spirit, sealed by the Spirit until the Day of Redemption, born again, and already seated in heavenly places and his in Christ, if they can lose their salvation, can they get it back again?

 

[ace of hearts]

There seems to be no end of threads that indicate one is justified by works of some sort. Works don't make one righteous. There is a difference between those unregenerate people's good works and the good works of the regenerate. They may even be the same actions such as kindness.

Works have nothing to do with salvation or righteousness. Abraham and King David are great examples.

There's no such thing as progressive justification and sanctification. One is either justified made righteous or not justified. The same goes for sanctification. Either you're sanctified (set apart) or you're not sanctified. Progressive sanctification is taught as a form of righteousness. So total sanctification doesn't equal never sinning. There are no examples of either being progressive in the Scripture. Progressive in either is a means of religious control.

 

[ace of hearts]

Why is works righteousness so sought after and demanded by many? Don't people understand all those demanded works of and for righteousness are nothing more than filthy rags. Don't people understand those works will only be burned in the fire? See Isaiah.

So many don't understand the parable of the vine.

 

[ace of hearts]

In salvation, God gives us a new nature (person) designed to love him and holiness. So any talk of "lordship salvation" or "cheap grace" only concerns those who think they are saved through works. They need to pony up or else. But the born again know it's an empty argument. We hate sin and love righteousness by nature.

I'd like to know what works those are by those who demand them. Are they works of the law or other good works like James talks about? No one seems to want to talk about those good works with anything specific, while demanding them of others. I think it's nothing more than religious bondage. One can't earn their salvation.

 

[ace of hearts]

It no doubt happens. But the proof is in the life style.

To a degree. What's the difference between the good things the unregenerate do and the good thing the regenerate do?

 

[Dave L]

To a degree. What's the difference between the good things the unregenerate do and the good thing the regenerate do?

Motive.

 

[Dave L]

I'd like to know what works those are by those who demand them. Are they works of the law or other good works like James talks about? No one seems to want to talk about those good works with anything specific, while demanding them of others. I think it's nothing more than religious bondage. One can't earn their salvation.

Works of love.

 

[Hammster]

My observation on these threads are that those who believe that you need works in some aspect, that they are doing enough, and that they cannot articulate the line of demarcation.

 

[frogoon234]

My observation on these threads are that those who believe that you need works in some aspect, that they are doing enough, and that they cannot articulate the line of demarcation.

exactly. how do you quantify how hard or how much effort that it takes to be said that you have done enough work. I attribute sin and works to money. If Jesus said i needed a million dollars of work at minimum wage pay. I would have to work something like 100,000 hours at a particular job to get to heaven. Who on this forum can make the claim that they have the authority to make that judgement.