Existential Age vs Physical Age

[AV1611VET]

In a lot sits a newly-built Dodge Challenger; it just came off the floor yesterday.

In your opinion:

1. How old is the car?
2. Are the atoms that make up the car older?

 

[Jazer]

In a lot sits a newly-built Dodge Challenger; it just came off the floor yesterday.

In your opinion:

1. How old is the car?
2. Are the atoms that make up the car older?

The elements have been around, but you have to refine and purify them to use them for a new car. "Approximately 10% of the earth crust is made up of iron making it one of the most abundant elements. Iron comes from iron ore which is a combination of the element iron and other metals and rock. This ore is then refined to extract the pure iron." Where Does Iron Come From

I remember back before plastic and before contact paper. We had a station wagon that had real wood paneling on the side. Cars were real heavy before plastic came along. Of course gasoline was only about 30 cents a gallon, so no one seemed to care. When the prices went up then people wanted lighter cars that got better miles per gallon.

 

[AV1611VET]

The elements have been around, but you have to refine and purify them to use them for a new car. "Approximately 10% of the earth crust is made up of iron making it one of the most abundant elements. Iron comes from iron ore which is a combination of the element iron and other metals and rock. This ore is then refined to extract the pure iron." Where Does Iron Come From

I remember back before plastic and before contact paper. We had a station wagon that had real wood paneling on the side. Cars were real heavy before plastic came along. Of course gasoline was only about 30 cents a gallon, so no one seemed to care. When the prices went up then people wanted lighter cars that got better miles per gallon.

I missed the answers to my two questions here, bro -- sorry.

 

[Nostromo]

Now you know how we feel.

Oh.. go on then...

In a lot sits a newly-built Dodge Challenger; it just came off the floor yesterday.

In your opinion:

1. How old is the car?
2. Are the atoms that make up the car older?

1) About a day old.
2) I don't know, when were they formed?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

In a lot sits a newly-built Dodge Challenger; it just came off the floor yesterday.

In your opinion:

1. How old is the car?
2. Are the atoms that make up the car older?

If the atoms that make up the car are older, what does that prove, or suggest to you? Are you saying that God created the earth 6000 years ago out of already available atoms? Without being a geologist I couldn't give you a scientific answer. However, from the little I know about evolution I would guess that if all life on earth is 6000 years old then the rate of mutation would have to be remarkably (dare I say fictionally?) fast. Around 95% of human DNA is junk - duplicates and redundant code we no longer need. This alone proves we are the result of millions of years of evolution. How can we have lived for millions of years on an earth that is only 6000 years old?

Also, I don't really see why it matters to Christians how old the earth is. Many Christians seem able, these days, to believe in some kind of theistic evolution without it destroying their faith.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

What's the doctrine that God renews creation every moment called? It might be relevant.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Also, I don't really see why it matters to Christians how old the earth is.

It doesn't -- but Christians who have eschewed the metaphysical and spiritual guidance of their faith in exchange for social/political influence need to be able to use it to define reality for the rest of us, thus placing themselves as our authorities.

It's sad, really -- but what can you do?

 

[AV1611VET]

2. Are the atoms that make up the car older?
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2) I don't know, when were they formed?

Are you serious with this answer? how can the atoms be younger than the car?

 

[AV1611VET]

If the atoms that make up the car are older, what does that prove, or suggest to you?

That an object can -- and does -- have two ages: one existential and one physical.

God created the earth 4.57 billion years old, 6000 years ago; thus:

1. The earth is 4.57 billion years old physically.
2. The earth is 6000 years old existentially.

My conversation with MoonLancer in another thread is what prompted me to make this thread.

 

[British Bulldog]

Are you serious with this answer? how can the atoms be younger than the car?

I think he means that the atoms might have been formed immediately prior to or at the same time as the car or they might have been formed a long time ago. We don't know unless we are given more information.

 

[AV1611VET]

What's the doctrine that God renews creation every moment called? It might be relevant.

Rejuvenation?

 

[AV1611VET]

Also, I don't really see why it matters to Christians how old the earth is.

It doesn't --

Yes, it does.

The age of the earth at the moment it came into existence helps determine what particular flavor of creationism we adhere to.

 

[Psudopod]

That an object can -- and does -- have two ages: one existential and one physical.

God created the earth 4.57 billion years old, 6000 years ago; thus:

1. The earth is 4.57 billion years old physically.
2. The earth is 6000 years old existentially.

My conversation with MoonLancer in another thread is what prompted me to make this thread.

The object only has one age - it only existed from the moment it was created. It may have parts that are older, true, but these do not reflect the age of object. You don't date an object by its parts. You'd date it by processes that started after its existance, which will give a minimum age (the object may be older). So you wouldn't date the car on the basis of its atoms, because there is nothing that would date atoms other than their own creation (assuming we had some way of dating atoms). You'd look at a process you could use - say you could work out the rate at which it rusts and calculate it from that (don't think you can actually do that, just an example).

 

[AV1611VET]

The object only has one age - it only existed from the moment it was created.

You're speaking from a mundane point of view though.

We humans cannot embed age into an object.

Remember my bicycle thread, where I assembled a complete bicycle from parts from other bicycles that were 35 years old?

The bicycle I assembled is brand new, but it is also 35 years old.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You may ask the age of the composite entity known as a car (when was the car assembled?), and you may ask about the age of components of that composite entity (e.g., when did the atoms form with their current numbers of protons?), but there is only one age for each, and that is how long ago they came into the form you intend in the question. There is no "existential" versus "physical" age.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[AV1611VET]

You may ask the age of the composite entity known as a car (when was the car assembled?), and you may ask about the age of components of that composite entity (e.g., when did the atoms form with their current numbers of protons?), but there is only one age for each, and that is how long ago they came into the form you intend in the question. There is no "existential" versus "physical" age.

Care to answer the two questions in my OP, then say that?

You guys can yak all you want, but if you don't answer my questions, your chatter don't matter.

 

[Nostromo]

My conversation with MoonLancer in another thread is what prompted me to make this thread.

Pull the other one AV, you don't need an excuse to peddle this.. erm.. idea.

You're not so dense you can't understand that things are dated by a chosen abstraction, usually their current configuration. If it wasn't that way then the question "how old is X?" would always yield an answer the same as the age of the universe.

 

[mzungu]

In a lot sits a newly-built Dodge Challenger; it just came off the floor yesterday.

In your opinion:

1. How old is the car?
2. Are the atoms that make up the car older?

The answers to your questions are as follows:

The car is as old as the definition of "Old Car". Are you judging the age by the mileage driven, Date of Manufacture, hours in the engine, etc?
Each definition begs for a different answer.

The answer to your second question:

The atoms are older than the car since the car is made up of the atoms and thus they must precede the car in age!

 

[AV1611VET]

Pull the other one AV, you don't need an excuse to peddle this.. erm.. idea.

I have no idea what you just said here.

You're not so dense you can't understand that things are dated by a chosen abstraction, usually their current configuration.

And you're not so lacking in self-discipline that you can't answer my two questions, are you?

 

[mzungu]

You're speaking from a mundane point of view though.

We humans cannot embed age into an object.

Remember my bicycle thread, where I assembled a complete bicycle from parts from other bicycles that were 35 years old?

The bicycle I assembled is brand new, but it is also 35 years old.

Hehe! Give it time AV and science will soon be playing God:

Researchers have built the world’s first ‘time cloak’ which makes things invisible not only in space - but in time as well.
A team of physicists sent a beam of light through two ‘time lenses’ which slowed and compressed it before expanding it once again.
This created a gap in time during which any events taking place were ‘cloaked’ and would not have been visible.
Viewers could therefore be seeing one thing while something completely different is going on behind the cloak.
So far the device only works for 110 nanoseconds and the researchers say the best they will be able to achieve is 120 microseconds.
But it has already been hailed as a major breakthrough and tipped as the first in a generation of such inventions.

Read more: Harry Potter invisibility cloak, that actually works, built by scientists | Mail Online
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