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Executions

Robban

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I always wonder about "lawful" executions and capital punishment in general. We do not have it here which may be why I find it hard to wrap my head around it.

Do people see it as moral or ethical? I have heard reports of communities in the US celebrating over how many people have been executed under capital punishment laws. This seems a risky way to carry out justice in my point of view. If you make a mistake and execute an innocent party, you cannot undo it. How is that right? And who decides which crimes are punishable by death?

I am guilty of execution, I have shot a few people and blown up others with handgrenades, all in hasty thoughts, the kind that rush through the mind and then have gone as quickly as they came.

After careful consideration it does not alarm me, instead I see it as the ultimate test, the test is about selfserving or serving others,
to put it this way, to do acts of goodness and kindness is good and should increase, but, is it only because it will make me feel good inside, selfserving,
or, is it because it is the right thing to do?
If it is the right thing to do then it must be good, to do the ultimate good must then be, Go help those I do not want to help, that is the test between selfserving and serving others.

It may appear to have nothing to do with thread, but, knowing what I myself am capable of, this is all I can come up with.

I need not have commented at all, but I have, we have our struggles.

So to your question, "Who decides which crimes are punishable by Death?"
I am not qualified to answer.
 
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Nithavela

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If John 8 is no Argument, how about 'you shall not kill'? That seems pretty straightforward.

Why is it that most of the people arguing for the death penality have a christian icon, while most people arguing against it lack one, I wonder...
 
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Nithavela

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Now we take this one step further, and say that the same in individual named above committed an act that required the death penalty. Such as the brutal murder and rape of those children as named above. Again from the Christian's perspective Jesus Christ did not die on the cross so this man would not have to pay for his crimes. Jesus died in order to save this man from sin. There is a big difference between justice and grace. Make no mistake, God will judge this man for his actions. and this man will be liable to fulfill the consequences of his actions regardless if he is saved or not.

Will he now? I always thought that he would get into heaven no problem if he accepted Jesus as his saviours, while the children would burn in hell if they were, for example, of islamic faith.
 
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Danny777

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If John 8 is no Argument, how about 'you shall not kill'? That seems pretty straightforward.

On the assumption you are referring to the ten commandments, this is very straight forward - we should not kill. Remember, all of these commandments were instructions to constitute day to day living and NOT instructions or what punishments should be dished out for those breaking the ten commandments. We know this is the case because in OT law, the death penalty was the punishment for some crimes.

Why is it that most of the people arguing for the death penality have a christian icon, while most people arguing against it lack one, I wonder...

I do not deny that this question re. the death penalty is a difficult one and I'm not definitely in favour of the death penalty. Christians are not bloodthirsty people! However, I do recognise that there has to be a system of punishment for wrongdoing in society by which to maintain law and order. Our systems will be imperfect and will only be perfected when Christ returns.

All of those who have been quick to (probably rightly) oppose the death penalty still have not provided any solutions. For those who rule out of the death penalty, what form of justice is most effective for serious offenders like serial killers etc?
 
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Nithavela

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All of those who have been quick to (probably rightly) oppose the death penalty still have not provided any solutions. For those who rule out of the death penalty, what form of justice is most effective for serious offenders like serial killers etc?

In my opinion, lifelong imprisonment seems entirely sufficient. Most legal systems in the world agree.
 
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Dusky Mouse

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Cops lie all the time.
Not too broad of an indictment there. :p


It's quite the issue of justice and just desserts. On one hand DNA testing has exonerated innocent prisoners from death row. Proving that innocent people can and do get convicted on bad evidence.

Putting someone to death insures there is no appeal. And to answer the question there have even been suggestions that those who have been executed should now be afforded a look-see at the trial evidence so as to perform DNA testing if possible, and see if they were indeed guilty.

Some years ago a state prison warden agreed to allow a DNA crime test laboratory to perform DNA testing of all prisoners willing to comply so as to support their grounds for appeal.
Amazingly enough not one prisoner volunteered. This was something that was part of the then cable series, "Locked Up". A documentary wherein the film crew goes inside prisons in various parts of the world and films the prison experience.

On the other hand, there are some evils that deserve to be extinguished. Letting those guilty parties, those who are truly guilty on credible evidence, live longer than their victim(s). Letting them to be a burden on those tax payers who can include their victim(s) and their families. Letting that convicted evil survive while his living victim struggles to forget the trespass perpetrated against them, is for some unconscionable.

And yet, very often prisoners we think are condemned to a cell for life or a huge number of years for that evil, are doing better than we'd ever imagine. Free TV, conjugal visits (Tex Watson, one of the murderers in the Charles Manson killing spree, has kids, all on welfare, by his wife whom he use to be allowed a conjugal visit with. Until California wised up!) and of course the best health care. At tax payer expense. All care of prisoners is at tax payer expense.

I watched a prison-doc once wherein the death row inmate, all appeals used up, date of execution could be decreed at any time, was in the prison infirmary getting chemotherapy for terminal inoperable cancer.

He even laughed into the camera and said he'd told the officials he did not want the treatment because it was ridiculous to spend all that money when there were free patients out in the world who couldn't afford the level of care he was getting. And he was a dead man twice over. Once by the terminal inoperable diagnosis. And once by the court ruling.
But the state law said he not only could not refuse but they had to treat him until he was put to death. :doh:And he didn't want the treatment. But as property of the state he had no choice.

I do think those sentenced to life without parole should be allowed to self-terminate. I can't imagine someone going to prison for life with no parole at 18 and having to look to 60 years in that living Hell with no out but suicide or being murdered by a fellow inmate.
 
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Darkhorse

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If John 8 is no Argument, how about 'you shall not kill'? That seems pretty straightforward.

The correct translation in modern English is "Do not murder"
Many forms of killing are not murder (war, self-defense, manslaughter).

Why is it that most of the people arguing for the death penality have a christian icon, while most people arguing against it lack one, I wonder...

Very good question...maybe because the Biblical penalty for murder was death?

Jesus modified that for the genuinely repentant, not for those who fake remorse.
 
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Dusky Mouse

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If John 8 is no Argument, how about 'you shall not kill'? That seems pretty straightforward.
Actually, it the command is thou shalt not murder. If someone was forbidden to kill then all those Godly campaigns the ancient Hebrews were set upon so as to kill people by God's decree, that included the unborn, and after Exodus when the 10 commandments were issued, we'd have a bit of a problem with scriptural context as relates to the moral teaching as relates to preservation of life and prohibition toward killing it.
 
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Nithavela

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Very good question...maybe because the Biblical penalty for murder was death?

Jesus modified that for the genuinely repentant, not for those who fake remorse.

Many people on death row claim to have found god (mostly the christian of course). At least some of these should be genuine, right? I can't recall a single instance where they were pardoned for that.

And waging war, as well as dashing children against walls, is murder in my book.
 
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quatona

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All of those who have been quick to (probably rightly) oppose the death penalty still have not provided any solutions. For those who rule out of the death penalty, what form of justice is most effective for serious offenders like serial killers etc?
As you may or may not know, most Western civilizations can do without the death penalty, and, on top of that, in most of those civilizations you have a significantly lower risk of being a victim of serial killers etc. than in the USA.
You may want to take a look at their legal systems, and there would be the answer to your question.
 
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Darkhorse

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Many people on death row claim to have found god (mostly the christian of course). At least some of these should be genuine, right? I can't recall a single instance where they were pardoned for that.

And waging war, as well as dashing children against walls, is murder in my book.

Civil law and religious law are different in the U. S. A. - we wouldn't want to have a theocracy, would we? :p

If waging war is murder, we should have let Hitler take over all of Europe, and keep it. That sounds ethical...

When you become God, we'll pay attention to your book.
 
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Robban

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On the assumption you are referring to the ten commandments, this is very straight forward - we should not kill. Remember, all of these commandments were instructions to constitute day to day living and NOT instructions or what punishments should be dished out for those breaking the ten commandments. We know this is the case because in OT law, the death penalty was the punishment for some crimes.



I do not deny that this question re. the death penalty is a difficult one and I'm not definitely in favour of the death penalty. Christians are not bloodthirsty people! However, I do recognise that there has to be a system of punishment for wrongdoing in society by which to maintain law and order. Our systems will be imperfect and will only be perfected when Christ returns.

All of those who have been quick to (probably rightly) oppose the death penalty still have not provided any solutions. For those who rule out of the death penalty, what form of justice is most effective for serious offenders like serial killers etc?

In Jewish law it is far from straight forward,

Rabbi Akiva was of the opinion that a Court that issues a Death sentence once in 70 years is a murderous Court.

First, circumstantial evidence won,t cut it.

Second, Two impeccable witnesses who observed the person transgressing an act punishable by Death.

Third, These two must have warned the person of the Capitol punishment he could receive for doing the prohibited act, even if he already knew.

Fourth, The person must have commited the transgression immediately after the warning,
any hesitation and the Death penalty is off.
 
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Nithavela

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If waging war is murder, we should have let Hitler take over all of Europe, and keep it. That sounds ethical...

Godwin's law, you lost the debate.

When you become God, we'll pay attention to your book.

How nice of you that you don't say 'if'.
 
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LostMarbels

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If John 8 is no Argument, how about 'you shall not kill'? That seems pretty straightforward.

This scripture actualy means do not murder. I have actualy heard vegins use this scripture to say it is against God's will to kill for food.

But this scripture is straight forward:

Num 35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
Num 35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
Num 35:18 Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
Num 35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
Num 35:20 But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die;
Num 35:21 Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.


You see? The " revenger of blood " is the exicutioner. Neither the family wronged, or someone offended by the murderer may kill the murderer. Only the exicutioner is alowed to kill the murderer, and only than it must be done lawfuly. Not out of hatred, or spite. Nor by seting a trap for them so they die. It must be done in accordance to law. If not. The exicutioner himself is to be put to death. Your theroy of thou shalt not kill goes right out of the window when you find out the grounds for capital punishment are laid out in the bible.

Why is it that most of the people arguing for the death penality have a christian icon, while most people arguing against it lack one, I wonder...

I think that is because most christians reconize that the wadges of sin are death.

Also I find it intresting that most people that speak against exicutions, are pro abortion. Now... figure that one out!
 
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LostMarbels

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Will he now? I always thought that he would get into heaven no problem if he accepted Jesus as his saviours, while the children would burn in hell if they were, for example, of islamic faith.
Well than your understanding is incorrect.

However, I'am not speaking about salvation. I'm stating that we all are held accountable for our actions.
 
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Nithavela

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Your theroy of thou shalt not kill goes right out of the window when you find out the grounds for capital punishment are laid out in the bible.

So, where are our cities of refuge?

It also gives grounds how to take, and treat, slaves, by the way. So I guess those are okay too, in your book?
 
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yasic

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As you may or may not know, most Western civilizations can do without the death penalty, and, on top of that, in most of those civilizations you have a significantly lower risk of being a victim of serial killers etc. than in the USA.
You may want to take a look at their legal systems, and there would be the answer to your question.

Its a pretty big leap from pointing out that in many countries without the death penalty it also happens to be the case that violent crime is lower and claiming the two are correlated.

There's plenty of reasons for why we have more crime in the US that have nothing to do with the death penalty.
 
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Nithavela

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Its a pretty big leap from pointing out that in many countries without the death penalty it also happens to be the case that violent crime is lower and claiming the two are correlated.

There's plenty of reasons for why we have more crime in the US that have nothing to do with the death penalty.

You are of course right. Correlation does not mean causation.

But why do the states with the death penality in the USA consistently have more murder cases then the states without it?

Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates | Death Penalty Information Center
 
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quatona

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Its a pretty big leap from pointing out that in many countries without the death penalty it also happens to be the case that violent crime is lower and claiming the two are correlated.
That´s why I didn´t claim this, in the first place.
The question I responded to was:
For those who rule out of the death penalty, what form of justice is most effective for serious offenders like serial killers etc?
And my answer comes down to:
Where I live we have a pretty effective "form of justice" that does without the death penalty.

There's plenty of reasons for why we have more crime in the US that have nothing to do with the death penalty.
Undisputed.
Somewhere in those reasons the actual problem - specific to the US - may be found, and somewhere there may the solution - specific to the US - be found.
 
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LostMarbels

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So, where are our cities of refuge?

Well they would be: Golan, Ramoth, Bosor, Kedesh, Shechem, and Hebron.

Got a plane ticket?

If someones actions lead to the death of a person, they could claim asylum in a city of refuge. At which time they had to be taken from the city and put on trial, and if the trial found that the perpetrator was innocent of murder, instead getting charged with manslaughter, then the perpetrator had to be returned under guard (for their own protection) to the city in which they had claimed asylum. Here they would remain in exile until the death of the high preist, at which time they would be released from their sentence. However, if an executioner ever caught this person outside of their city of refuge before the death of the high priest, they were immeaditly exicuted. This is almost old school community control of offenders with lesser charges than murder. This is not a way out as your implicating.

It also gives grounds how to take, and treat, slaves, by the way. So I guess those are okay too, in your book?

Yet again, this is a missunderstanding on your part, and not at all relivent to the topic at hand. So I pass.....
 
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