Excuse Chart

[MessianicMommy]

Yes, but if she says she feels sweaty and gross and needs to shower, and then goes to bed in said gross condition and doesn't shower until the next day, that does sound rather odd.

June 4 the entry reads: "I feel sweaty and gross, I need a shower." then notes she didn't shower until the next day.

You know the saying "too pooped to poop"? I've gone to the gym, needed to hurry home for something so I skipped showering, got home, did the thing and sat down to pause and take my shoes off and woke up several hours later. I got up and showered afterwards and prayed hard that my neighbors would not complain to the landlord about water usage after midnight.

Stuff happens. Neither of these two handled this in a mature matter.
Sex is not the end all be all of the marriage relationship. There is so much more. Friendship, companionship, shared interests and activities AND sex.

 

[mkgal1]

While that's probably true in this case, and I'd say even most of the time, I do have a problem with making the blanket statement that providing enough love to the woman will always lead her to wanting sex. That makes no more sense to me than saying that providing a man enough sex will always lead to love.

The very real possibility exists that she just ain't all that into you.

I agree (completely)....although those two beliefs always seem to get thrown around as the "answer".

The thing is....in the case of the OP....wouldn't it be reasonable for the guy to stop and do some self reflection and ask himself (first---then her)...."why isn't she all that into me?". He certainly isn't doing much to avoid contributing to that.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, but if she says she feels sweaty and gross and needs to shower, and then goes to bed in said gross condition and doesn't shower until the next day, that does sound rather odd.

June 4 the entry reads: "I feel sweaty and gross, I need a shower." then notes she didn't shower until the next day.

You know the saying "too pooped to poop"? I've gone to the gym, needed to hurry home for something so I skipped showering, got home, did the thing and sat down to pause and take my shoes off and woke up several hours later. I got up and showered afterwards and prayed hard that my neighbors would not complain to the landlord about water usage after midnight.

Stuff happens. Neither of these two handled this in a mature matter.
Sex is not the end all be all of the marriage relationship. There is so much more. Friendship, companionship, shared interests and activities AND sex.

I agree.

Also....what makes sense in my mind is that there was--most likely---some sort of argument over all of this that could have kept her from her shower (and sleep was more important than showering at that point).

Obviously they're excuses and not reasons. People use those when reasons aren't respectfully accepted.

 

[DZoolander]

You know the saying "too pooped to poop"? I've gone to the gym, needed to hurry home for something so I skipped showering, got home, did the thing and sat down to pause and take my shoes off and woke up several hours later. I got up and showered afterwards and prayed hard that my neighbors would not complain to the landlord about water usage after midnight.

Stuff happens. Neither of these two handled this in a mature matter.
Sex is not the end all be all of the marriage relationship. There is so much more. Friendship, companionship, shared interests and activities AND sex.

...and hence the point of the ledger.

Each one of those things as distinct occurrences can be easily excused away. In aggregate and as a pattern - it gives every appearance of simply looking for any opportunity to find an excuse. So might as well take the conversation out of the realm of individual occurrences and address what's actually going on.

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

So in the same way you noticed people making a lot of speculations, you are now speculating that people are dismissing her culpability. Just because no one mentioned it, does not mean people are dismissing her.



First Corinthians 13:5:
It [love] does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Bringing up a grievance is not keeping a record of a wrong. It is addressing issues as they come up and then not holding it against them in the future. Memory is not a "record" unless you use that memory to beat them up with it in the future. This is a concept that ties in closely with the whole concept of reconciliation - and I believe that marriage is the platform for us to live out the ministry of reconciliation.

Recording all of a spouse's rejections over months in order to confront it with him/her later, is absolutely a "record of wrongs." And the Bible explicitly is against it.

"Just because no one mentioned it..." I'm not saying there weren’t any mentions of her culpability, because there was. But it was, to me, greatly overshadowed by the emphasis on his. The effect of that was that it minimized hers.

A piece of paper with writing on it is not somehow wrong or evil any more than the same information in one's memory. It's what's done with it. If there is a grudge, that's the part that's wrong. I don't see any significant difference between sending his wife an email or reciting the same information from memory. If writing a multi item spreadsheet indicates there was a grudge, then I don't see how logically putting it out to the world wouldn't indicate the same thing, a grudge. But, the emphasis has been on the spreadsheet by a wide margin.

In one of your posts (#62), you wrote, "If keeping score and whining "poor me, this is how my wife hurts me" is met with her retaliation in putting it on the internet "here's WHY I don't want sex," then I am not surprised." That seems to be taking a hard line with him and a much softer line with her. Then later in #62 you wrote:

“She could have responded by saying that keeping a record like this is damaging to the marriage because it feeds his resentment toward her when he puts an entry into it, and it gave her just cause to respond in resentment. Resentment leads to contempt - one of the danger signs of impending divorce."

"Just cause to resond in resentment"? Where do you bestow upon him just cause to respond in resentment? This is a sampling of what prompted me to write:

"Certainly no one made any overt, outright statement declaring that the wife was excused, but considering all of the speculations, assumptions, and opinion made in her favor in sharp contrast to those made against the husband's, I'm not seeing an important distinction."

I think this is a tad more than speculation on my part.


1 Corinthians 13:5d KJV is rendered "...thinketh no evil;" Or in my paraphrase, "doesn't hold a grudge". I don't have much of a problem with other translations that use the word "record" because I understand even memory is a record, and we don't self-erase, so the resolution must be to move on thinking no evil (or not bearing a grudge).

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

We are guessing and speculating a lot on this thread. While we are at it, there are some somewhat legitimate reasons for keeping a spreadsheet of sexual activity. If the wife were claiming they had sex twice a week and he was saying it was every few weeks and he documented it and sent her the email. At least he would have had a reason to email her: trying to fix a sexual problem in the marriage.

On the other hand, if a healthy couple in their 20's (as one website claimed about this couple) are having sex so rarely because one keeps denying the other, that's a bad thing. It's clear you aren't supposed to do that. Keeping a spreadsheet could be done from a bad motivation or not.

My wife and I have written things back and forth. I didn't know that could be a problem until recently.

 

[Inkachu]

Yeah, I couldn't even finish that video. All the tittering and giggling and silly doodles; I'm sorry, are we adults or 12 year old children here? I also find it insulting - to both men and women - to say that the "key to my man's heart" is my freakin' vagina. Seriously? Do we realize that such a statement debases both genders and makes a mockery of our Creator and the way He designed us? A man's heart is not magically unlocked by a vagina. Give me a freakin' break. And to tell girls to "make him earn that thing" when referring to her sexuality. "That thing"? Really? The sacred intimacy of marriage is now a "thing"? And sex is something he has to earn? It's a reward now? Ahhh, so that doesn't feed AT ALL into the dysfunctional idea of a husband being "owed" sex by his wife. Riiiiight. Great ideology to teach.

Insulting, childish, and just... ugh. No. I understand the PRINCIPLES he was trying to teach, but he was going about it in a horrible, ridiculous way IMO.

 

[mkgal1]

Yeah, I couldn't even finish that video. All the tittering and giggling and silly doodles; I'm sorry, are we adults or 12 year old children here? I also find it insulting - to both men and women - to say that the "key to my man's heart" is my freakin' vagina. Seriously? Do we realize that such a statement debases both genders and makes a mockery of our Creator and the way He designed us? A man's heart is not magically unlocked by a vagina. Give me a freakin' break. And to tell girls to "make him earn that thing" when referring to her sexuality. "That thing"? Really? The sacred intimacy of marriage is now a "thing"? And sex is something he has to earn? It's a reward now? Ahhh, so that doesn't feed AT ALL into the dysfunctional idea of a husband being "owed" sex by his wife. Riiiiight. Great ideology to teach.

Insulting, childish, and just... ugh. No.

I agree.

I couldn't finish the video either (for the same reasons).

 

[DZoolander]

I've got an idea.

Find the most "godly" engaged couple you know, and tell the woman to tell the guy "There will be no sex in the marriage. In order to prove it's not about that, there will be none of that."

...and see how things progress

 

[mkgal1]

I've got an idea.

Find the most "godly" engaged couple you know, and tell the woman to tell the guy "There will be no sex in the marriage. In order to prove it's not about that, there will be none of that."

...and see how things progress

But there *is* sex in the marriage that we're talking about It's just that it's not as much as the guy wants (which....I'd be willing to bet that isn't the *only* issue in the marriage). Someone isn't willing to "hear" the other spouse about *something* else (or maybe he's not gracious about taking an occasional "not tonight" in a respectful way).

 

[DZoolander]

You're probably right. I'm just illustrating the weird dichotomy that people seem to draw between the two - that somehow it's a choice between between one or the other.. Kind of like "If you want/value a healthy sex life - clearly you must not value the other matters of the heart" -- or that in the event there's refusal - that your inability to find solace in other areas is somehow a shortcoming on your part or evidence that you don't value other things.

I disagree with that.

If I had to venture a guess, I think you're right on all counts in this case. However, I'd also venture a guess to say that the guy probably views whatever "successes" he's had as simply her acquiescing in order to not completely deprive him and keep the peace. In such a scenario, might as well just deny completely, I think. Same net effect.

 

[DZoolander]

"If you must"

 

[mkgal1]

Right. If there is something causing some sort of disgust in her for him, and she's just acquiescing ("if you must") that's just drawing out the issue, IMHO....and causing both of them YEARS of misery (potentially). IMHO....it's far better to get it all out on the table (so to speak) and see what's actually there to deal with. But that takes sincerity (and the ability to accept criticism). Not all people are up for that.

 

[DZoolander]

Not all people are up for that.

 

[mkgal1]

What I edited to add (the ability to accept criticism) may be the important part. If, when a person does vent their grievance, all the other does is deflect and put the blame on the other spouse (the one bringing up their grievance)---there's not going to be any progress. IME...I think that's the typical cycle of irreconcilable differences that lead to diminished sex.

That's entirely a different scenario than a couple that has an occasional tiff that quickly gets resolved.

 

[Inkachu]

I've got an idea.

Find the most "godly" engaged couple you know, and tell the woman to tell the guy "There will be no sex in the marriage. In order to prove it's not about that, there will be none of that."

...and see how things progress

Yeah, that would be a GREAT example, given that it's full of snark and sarcasm and completely contrived to CREATE tension. Sorry Zoo, terrible example.

 

[Inkachu]

Kind of like "If you want/value a healthy sex life - clearly you must not value the other matters of the heart" -- or that in the event there's refusal - that your inability to find solace in other areas is somehow a shortcoming on your part or evidence that you don't value other things.

Not sure who you're referring to with this, but if it was my response to the video, that is not at all what I said. Not even close.

 

[mkgal1]

Based on the wife's response to the spreadsheet (calling it "immature and inflammatory" and then posting it online)...I think this one poster is probably correct,

“I don't believe for a second that this guy didn't try to solve this in a more rational way before resorting to the spread sheet. It seems like it's way more likely that this has been brought up several times only to be dismissed, and he thought if he could prove it to you maybe it would get your attention."

 

[tall73]

Based on the wife's response to the spreadsheet (calling it "immature and inflammatory" and then posting it online)...I think this one poster is probably correct,

Agreed, I can't imagine the spreadsheet being the first attempt. I would imagine he was turned down many times before finally deciding that she just didn't get what he was upset about and making a list.

 

[Avniel]

You know the saying "too pooped to poop"? I've gone to the gym, needed to hurry home for something so I skipped showering, got home, did the thing and sat down to pause and take my shoes off and woke up several hours later. I got up and showered afterwards and prayed hard that my neighbors would not complain to the landlord about water usage after midnight.

Stuff happens. Neither of these two handled this in a mature matter.
Sex is not the end all be all of the marriage relationship. There is so much more. Friendship, companionship, shared interests and activities AND sex.

I totally agree with you. It's not all there is in marriage there is so much more but it's is part of the relationship. I couldn't have said it better. I think what the main issue in relationships like this is the lack of the good stuff that make up a good marriage. What I think people don't understand is that people resent when they don't get what they "need"(not to survive but need to feel healthy relationship wise) out of a relationship. When we take away companionship from an other wise healthy relationship a spouse can feel robbed particularly when that is an important aspect for that person. The question is do we owe it to our marriages and spouse to give them what they need out of our relationship? My belief is yes, we owe our spouse friendship, time, respect, companionship, communication, love and sex. As a spouse are we entitled to those things, no. We can't expect people to love us and give us what we need out of our relationship. He should have leaned to God also calculating someone's selfishness isn't love and she should have considered her husband more.

Two immature people in a marriage for self.