• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Excuse Chart

ValleyGal

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2012
5,775
1,823
✟129,255.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Divorced
According to the OP article, the husband shared his spreadsheet of alleged facts with his wife, it was the wife who shared it with the rest of the world. So I'm not sure why the husband is seen as apparently whining to the world "poor me, this is how my wife hurts me."

The husband may be "tacky", "keeping score", not maintaining only positive thoughts, and being "very damaging to the marriage" but if so, is the wife's airing of their dirty laundry to the rest of the world OK (or much different)?

Imo, as the "head" it is his responsibility to initiate the tone of the marriage. If keeping score and whining "poor me, this is how my wife hurts me" is met with her retaliation in putting it on the internet "here's WHY I don't want sex," then I am not surprised. The truth is, we don't know what's wrong with their marriage except that it's not working very well and these two do not treat each other the way they should be.

If one of our spouses expresses a complaint to us and we pull the "you're keeping score" card, or the "you're not thinking only positive thoughts" card, or the "you're being very damaging to our marriage" card, would that be OK, and honoring to God or our marriages? Shouldn't some accountability, integity, honesty, and genuine love and caring be part of the equation? In an objective mood, I think most of us would say yes.

"Expressing a complaint" is not "keeping score." Shouldn't love, caring, accountability and integrity be part of the equation? YES! That's why he should not have kept the record to start with. If he has the integrity to love his wife and honour her (part of traditional vows), then he will also honour her decisions, including declining sex....keeping a running record of it is not honouring it.

Correcting HIS behaviours has to start with HIM. And in this situation, HE is responsible for pulling out a running record to use as a weapon against her. Instead, he should discuss it with her as it happens, then reconcile the relationship (forgive and move on and do not ever bring it up again).

Correcting HER behaviour starts with HER. She should not have retaliated by putting it on the internet. What should she have done instead? There are a lot of private ways to deal with the hurt that a spouse causes you. Perhaps that is where the accountability comes in. She could have responded by saying that keeping a record like this is damaging to the marriage because it feeds his resentment toward her when he puts an entry into it, and it gave her just cause to respond in resentment. Resentment leads to contempt - one of the danger signs of impending divorce.

If this couple had come to us, keeping a record of wrongs, nurturing positive thoughts, and discussing ways BOTH contributed to the marital damage would have been discussed in our attempt to move toward setting some goals about how to improve marital satisfaction.

It's usually the men that complain about a lack of sex, but again, even when men mention they would like more of it, I don't hear sullen, angry, or resentful complaints about a lack of sex if other forms of intimacy and genuine love and caring are present. And of course, it takes two to tango, men often selfishly or unwittingly or unwisely neglect their relationship with their wives and substantially contribute to their wives "lower libido" or poor attitude, and both the pot and stove soon become black.

Actually, you would be surprised at the number of women who wish they had more frequent sex with their husband....they are just less inclined to discuss it. They are more inclined to discuss the lack of other forms of intimacy, and imo, that is a much greater problem than not enough sex.

Imo, in the OP, the husband resents her, which is probably a spillover from other things in their marriage, but he likely keeps the record of sex because he cares more about it than he does about emotional intimacy. She could have very valid reasons for not wanting it. Maybe she's in her third trimester of pregnancy (a lot of women don't want it during that time), maybe she is menopausal, maybe she is resentful towards him for not being there emotionally, maybe he hits her.....the truth is, we don't know. All we know is that she is not interested and he is only making matters worse by keeping a spreadsheet of it.
 
Upvote 0

ValleyGal

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2012
5,775
1,823
✟129,255.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Divorced
Well, I think it's a stretch to believe that he would feel compelled to keep track like that if she was initiating every other couple of days.

The truth is, we don't know. If she is, it just makes his spreadsheet all the more unreasonable than it already is. If he left them blank, it could be that he was out of town and would have had he been home. Shall we go through all the potential "what ifs?"
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I read about this spreadsheet at another site. They say the couple are married and in their 20s.

We don't know the contents of the husband's email. We know the wife said it was immature. We read that the wife said the husband cut off contact. Maybe she couldn't reach him on his cell phone, and interpreted that as cutting off contact. Maybe he cut off contact because of what she said or wrote after receiving the email.

I think posters are making some big assumptions about these folks based on the limited information we have.
 
Upvote 0

favoritetoyisjoy

Regular Member
Nov 12, 2004
600
81
✟29,161.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Imo, as the "head" it is his responsibility to initiate the tone of the marriage. If keeping score and whining "poor me, this is how my wife hurts me" is met with her retaliation in putting it on the internet "here's WHY I don't want sex," then I am not surprised. The truth is, we don't know what's wrong with their marriage except that it's not working very well and these two do not treat each other the way they should be.

"Expressing a complaint" is not "keeping score." Shouldn't love, caring, accountability and integrity be part of the equation? YES! That's why he should not have kept the record to start with. If he has the integrity to love his wife and honour her (part of traditional vows), then he will also honour her decisions, including declining sex....keeping a running record of it is not honouring it.

Correcting HIS behaviours has to start with HIM. And in this situation, HE is responsible for pulling out a running record to use as a weapon against her. Instead, he should discuss it with her as it happens, then reconcile the relationship (forgive and move on and do not ever bring it up again).

Correcting HER behaviour starts with HER. She should not have retaliated by putting it on the internet. What should she have done instead? There are a lot of private ways to deal with the hurt that a spouse causes you. Perhaps that is where the accountability comes in. She could have responded by saying that keeping a record like this is damaging to the marriage because it feeds his resentment toward her when he puts an entry into it, and it gave her just cause to respond in resentment. Resentment leads to contempt - one of the danger signs of impending divorce.

If this couple had come to us, keeping a record of wrongs, nurturing positive thoughts, and discussing ways BOTH contributed to the marital damage would have been discussed in our attempt to move toward setting some goals about how to improve marital satisfaction.



Actually, you would be surprised at the number of women who wish they had more frequent sex with their husband....they are just less inclined to discuss it. They are more inclined to discuss the lack of other forms of intimacy, and imo, that is a much greater problem than not enough sex.

Imo, in the OP, the husband resents her, which is probably a spillover from other things in their marriage, but he likely keeps the record of sex because he cares more about it than he does about emotional intimacy. She could have very valid reasons for not wanting it. Maybe she's in her third trimester of pregnancy (a lot of women don't want it during that time), maybe she is menopausal, maybe she is resentful towards him for not being there emotionally, maybe he hits her.....the truth is, we don't know. All we know is that she is not interested and he is only making matters worse by keeping a spreadsheet of it.

Whether a spouse mentions one item or a million, it can all be considerered keeping score if that's one's bias. Even if a spouse were to simply say "Gee honey, you don't seem very responsive sexually (or fill in the blank with something else) some amount of keeping track (or "score" if you prefer) had been done. The spreadsheet deal was extreme and counterproductive for sure, but even if it is only partly true, that doesn't make it a get out of jail free card for her either.

In fact, I can't think of anything off hand that one spouse typically does that excuses the other's behavior, whether one of them is "head" or not.

No one made the husband a hero, not even close. But let's not assume in favor of one over the other either. We could make up plausible stories in his favor all day long just as easily as hers. In fact, may I remind you that in reference to the husband's spreadsheet I said "alleged facts" near the beginning of my post. This isn't a gender war as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully, we all understand that everything about the OP is "alleged" at this point.

We all also hopefully understand that any time any spouse, male or female, comes in here and voices their issues or complaints with their spouse without us knowing all of the facts, and the other person's side of the story, there isn't much we can offer for response outside of offering prayer, that isn't somewhere between assumptive and highly assumptive.

In this alleged, assumptive thread, I took exception to putting words into the husband's mouth: "Poor me, see how my wife treats me" as if he were addressing one or more persons outside of the marriage, when he didn't,
yet at the time not mentioning the fact that it was his wife who actually made it public.

The gist of my post was that both the pot and the stove are black, and that hasn't changed, and I certainly didn't excuse the husband or men in general, but I didn't and don't excuse the wife either.

And by the way, I suspect you might be surprised how much men care about other forms of intimacy besides sex.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,047,701.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since we don't know the backstory, which seems to be the norm in about every thread, we of course can't really verify any of the scenarios. We can only infer at best.

What we can say is this is not what was meant by "mutual consent".



1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟72,423.00
Country
France
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I read about this spreadsheet at another site. They say the couple are married and in their 20s.

We don't know the contents of the husband's email. We know the wife said it was immature. We read that the wife said the husband cut off contact. Maybe she couldn't reach him on his cell phone, and interpreted that as cutting off contact. Maybe he cut off contact because of what she said or wrote after receiving the email.

I think posters are making some big assumptions about these folks based on the limited information we have.

Yes. Like those "maybe's" above.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

ValleyGal

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2012
5,775
1,823
✟129,255.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Divorced
No one made the husband a hero, not even close. But let's not assume in favor of one over the other either. We could make up plausible stories in his favor all day long just as easily as hers.

I don't think anyone here has excused her from her behaviour. Some may not have addressed it, but I don't think anyone excused it.

And by the way, I suspect you might be surprised how much men care about other forms of intimacy besides sex.


I'm sure they care, but they voice lack of sex more than they voice lack of emotional connection. Maybe because they likely feel like they get enough emotional connection, so that need is met and there is no need to voice it. Otoh, women generally give more of a voice to non-sexual issues more than they do to sexual ones - although there are a lot of women who complain they don't get enough sex, too. I've yet to hear of any woman keeping spreadsheets of when her husband doesn't connect emotionally or help with chores or anything like that.

When I say that issues should be addressed, it is not keeping a record. I had an issue this morning. I voiced it, my husband stepped into how I felt about it, and we resolved the issue. That is not "keeping a record." It is nothing more than recognizing a dynamic and discussing it. Keeping a record is if I were to hold it against him, nag at him, or open a spreadsheet and start tracking his progress and dwell on how bad I have it every time I open the spreadsheet and see it for the horrible injustice I think it is. As I said in an earlier post, there is such a thing as boundaries.

When people come onto the forums and voice their complaints, for me, it's about supporting the one person who is looking for help. That might mean trying to get the person to see the other person's pov, try to understand the other person, etc. Or it might be to help the poster feel supported. People answer in various ways - and yes, obviously on a marriage board it's very challenging because you only get one side. This is not a counselling service.
 
Upvote 0

favoritetoyisjoy

Regular Member
Nov 12, 2004
600
81
✟29,161.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't think anyone here has excused her from her behaviour. Some may not have addressed it, but I don't think anyone excused it.



I'm sure they care, but they voice lack of sex more than they voice lack of emotional connection. Maybe because they likely feel like they get enough emotional connection, so that need is met and there is no need to voice it. Otoh, women generally give more of a voice to non-sexual issues more than they do to sexual ones - although there are a lot of women who complain they don't get enough sex, too. I've yet to hear of any woman keeping spreadsheets of when her husband doesn't connect emotionally or help with chores or anything like that.

When I say that issues should be addressed, it is not keeping a record. I had an issue this morning. I voiced it, my husband stepped into how I felt about it, and we resolved the issue. That is not "keeping a record." It is nothing more than recognizing a dynamic and discussing it. Keeping a record is if I were to hold it against him, nag at him, or open a spreadsheet and start tracking his progress and dwell on how bad I have it every time I open the spreadsheet and see it for the horrible injustice I think it is. As I said in an earlier post, there is such a thing as boundaries.

When people come onto the forums and voice their complaints, for me, it's about supporting the one person who is looking for help. That might mean trying to get the person to see the other person's pov, try to understand the other person, etc. Or it might be to help the poster feel supported. People answer in various ways - and yes, obviously on a marriage board it's very challenging because you only get one side. This is not a counselling service.
[/font]



Certainly no one made any overt, outright statement declaring that the wife was excused, but considering all of the speculations, assumptions, and opinion made in her favor in sharp contrast to those made against the husband's, I'm not seeing an important distinction.

I'm also not finding anything in the Bible anywhere that prohibits any person from writing a document whether long or short, to his or her spouse, expressing grievances. I'm not seeing that keeping a record, whether written or in memory is. You just recorded a grievance with your husband. Remembering isn't even a problem. Holding a grudge is.
 
Upvote 0

ValleyGal

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2012
5,775
1,823
✟129,255.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Divorced
Certainly no one made any overt, outright statement declaring that the wife was excused, but considering all of the speculations, assumptions, and opinion made in her favor in sharp contrast to those made against the husband's, I'm not seeing an important distinction.

So in the same way you noticed people making a lot of speculations, you are now speculating that people are dismissing her culpability. Just because no one mentioned it, does not mean people are dismissing her.

I'm also not finding anything in the Bible anywhere that prohibits any person from writing a document whether long or short, to his or her spouse, expressing grievances. I'm not seeing that keeping a record, whether written or in memory is. You just recorded a grievance with your husband. Remembering isn't even a problem. Holding a grudge is.

First Corinthians 13:5:
It [love] does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Bringing up a grievance is not keeping a record of a wrong. It is addressing issues as they come up and then not holding it against them in the future. Memory is not a "record" unless you use that memory to beat them up with it in the future. This is a concept that ties in closely with the whole concept of reconciliation - and I believe that marriage is the platform for us to live out the ministry of reconciliation.

Recording all of a spouse's rejections over months in order to confront it with him/her later, is absolutely a "record of wrongs." And the Bible explicitly is against it.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Certainly no one made any overt, outright statement declaring that the wife was excused, but considering all of the speculations, assumptions, and opinion made in her favor in sharp contrast to those made against the husband's, I'm not seeing an important distinction.

I'm also not finding anything in the Bible anywhere that prohibits any person from writing a document whether long or short, to his or her spouse, expressing grievances. I'm not seeing that keeping a record, whether written or in memory is. You just recorded a grievance with your husband. Remembering isn't even a problem. Holding a grudge is.

We are guessing and speculating a lot on this thread. While we are at it, there are some somewhat legitimate reasons for keeping a spreadsheet of sexual activity. If the wife were claiming they had sex twice a week and he was saying it was every few weeks and he documented it and sent her the email. At least he would have had a reason to email her: trying to fix a sexual problem in the marriage.

On the other hand, if a healthy couple in their 20's (as one website claimed about this couple) are having sex so rarely because one keeps denying the other, that's a bad thing. It's clear you aren't supposed to do that. Keeping a spreadsheet could be done from a bad motivation or not.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,047,701.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The wife in this case had been to the gym. You do get gross and sweaty at the gym - if you're actually going there for fitness.

Yes, but if she says she feels sweaty and gross and needs to shower, and then goes to bed in said gross condition and doesn't shower until the next day, that does sound rather odd.

June 4 the entry reads: "I feel sweaty and gross, I need a shower." then notes she didn't shower until the next day.
 
Upvote 0

Avniel

Doing my part each day by being the best me
Jun 11, 2010
7,219
438
Bronx NYC
✟49,141.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, but if she says she feels sweaty and gross and needs to shower, and then goes to bed in said gross condition and doesn't shower until the next day, that does sound rather odd.

June 4 the entry reads: "I feel sweaty and gross, I need a shower." then notes she didn't shower until the next day.

Which is kind of disgusting and rude. How do you go to bed nasty? How do you sleep next to someone with your days worth of filth? Can we say rash and bad skin.
 
Upvote 0

DZoolander

Persnickety Member
Apr 24, 2007
7,279
2,114
Far far away
✟127,634.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I always find these sexual refusal discussions interesting - because there's always kinda this "but, it's just sex, poor poor him" dynamic to it...or "he must have done something to deserve it"...or "he shouldn't keep track"...or...a myriad of other things that kinda diminish the problem the guy has with it.

The only thing that I'm left thinking is that women must really misunderstand why guys get married...or what sex means in the guy's mind.

Maybe the closest thing that can be related is that book and concept "He's just not that into you". Sexual refusal, to most guys, is akin to that. We simply cannot envision why someone would refuse unless they just weren't all that into us. Sex is something we desire - in and of itself - as it's own end. That's why women generally (I think) have such a hard time relating to it (sexual refusal) - because they experience so little of it. We could come home after getting hit by a bus, with a broken leg in a cast, after having not slept for 3 days in the hospital, having just lost our job due to being absent from work...and if our wife seemed like she was game for it we'd probably find a way.

I always kinda wonder how women would react if they received the same types of sexual refusal that guys complain about over a prolonged period of time...lol I think about times my wife has initiated and the few times I said I wasn't in the mood (and meant it) - and how it seemed to start bringing up insecurities or wonderment...and then wonder how that would play out over months and months and months.

Most often - though - if we refuse - the only reason why we can conceive of it is because we find something fundamentally wrong with the girl. We're just not that into her - or find her kinda repugnant in some way or other. That's the message that guys interpret with refusal.

So - think back to some guy that wasn't all that into you growing up - how that made you feel - and now envision that you're stuck with them (possibly supporting them) with very little recourse or way out for the rest of your life. lol Then add insult to injury that you can't even take that refusal at face value (like you could with that person who wasn't into you) and just move on - that your entire sexual life is now dedicated to someone that ain't all that into you...and then add to the mix that you're possibly supporting them (hey - you're good enough for your money!)

That's kinda what it means, I'd imagine, and I can totally see why other guys might write up a ledger in a case like that...especially if they're really young and in their 20's.

If you're getting married in your 20's, if you don't have kids yet, etc...it's pretty much the sex that made the difference in his decision to marry her. That's simply the fact of the matter. I've been a 20 year old guy - and I can tell you that I've never met a woman in my life that prayed so well, that treated kittens so nicely, that had such a great sense of humor, that it made me go "wow - I'm going to now cut myself off to every other option for the rest of my life for this person." Those things may be great - and those are things that you want people around for...but it ain't enough to cut off all other options for. Like I said before - those are friends.

But - if you're getting MARRIED - I can guarantee you that's at least 50% (if not more) of what he's considering. So when it becomes an issue where it's rarely (if ever) happening - expect that kind of reaction.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong - but it is what it is. People are far better off I think approaching life for what it actually is - and keeping that in mind when they make their decisions.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The question that comes to mind (during the video) is if this theory is accurate---the one about 'the way to a man's heart is through, what he called, the happy place....then how does that work prior to marriage? How is the heart "captured"?

In my mind, I begin imagining a starved puppy (b/c of his description)...and a person luring the puppy with a food treat. Once that puppy is "caught" and is no longer starving.....don't more things come into it? Food is no longer the *only* thing that puppy is concerned about. Things like being shut up in a small crate all day aren't going to just accepted....(I'm speaking about the puppy).

I don't know....maybe I'm too much of an idealist. I just believe the sexual relationship is an expression of the relationship...not what creates it.
 
Upvote 0

DZoolander

Persnickety Member
Apr 24, 2007
7,279
2,114
Far far away
✟127,634.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Well, the "idealistic" part IMHO is that it's a relationship that embodies ALL aspects of love. It's not like "well, now that the sex thing has captured his heart, maybe we move on." It's not something to move on from.

Now - I know people will bring in extraordinary scenarios like "well, what if the guy's schween gets whacked off or something...or what if suddenly her happy place were to get cauterized closed for some unknown reason thereby leaving sex impossible...then what? Is it not a marriage?"

I suppose in such unlikely scenarios - they'd find a way to move on given the impossibility of the task (or else they'd have very serious problems over the long haul)...but...given any NORMAL scenario - it ought to embody everything.

A marriage without sex is really no more than a really good room-mate with a friend. A marriage without friendship is nothing but a shallow sex-fest that will probably not endure. Either option is not a marriage.

A marriage is everything, IMHO.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
A marriage without sex is really no more than a really good room-mate with a friend.
A marriage without friendship is nothing but a shallow sex-fest that will probably not endure. Either option is not a marriage.

A marriage is everything, IMHO.
I agree (all of those aspects are what make up a marriage).

I'm of the belief that, most likely, what's going on in the couple with the spreadsheet record is the lack of friendship. When there's no foundation of friendship, however, a couple ends up with NO friend---and NO sex.
 
Upvote 0

DZoolander

Persnickety Member
Apr 24, 2007
7,279
2,114
Far far away
✟127,634.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I agree (all of those aspects are what make up a marriage).

I'm of the belief that, most likely, what's going on in the couple with the spreadsheet record is the lack of friendship. When there's no foundation of friendship, however, a couple ends up with NO friend---and NO sex.

While that's probably true in this case, and I'd say even most of the time, I do have a problem with making the blanket statement that providing enough love to the woman will always lead her to wanting sex. That makes no more sense to me than saying that providing a man enough sex will always lead to love.

The very real possibility exists that she just ain't all that into you.
 
Upvote 0