Excommunicated and Heretical Saints

[Standing Up]

The Chruch doesn't declare people saints. Only God declares people saints.

I'd agree. As someone mentioned earlier, OSAS, once a saint always a saint, like once saved always saved. Origin is an example.

Likewise, Christians do not pray to the dead. That's a pagan practice.

Well there's a whole group of brothers and sisters who do. But the issue will only be "solved" when folks approach these things like the very early church did. In any event, folks are convinced in their own minds, wasn't that Paul's instruction?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Chruch doesn't declare people saints. Only God declares people saints.

Likewise, Christians do not pray to the dead. That's a pagan practice.

Doesn't the RCC canonize Saints?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7468175/
Dante damned him to the Inferno...but the Pope canonized him (Saint Celestine V)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

<staff edit>
Ok

 

[Christos Anesti]

The Church doesn't declare people saints. Only God declares people saints.

I agree. The Holy Spirit does guide the Church to publicly proclaim and venerate people as saints however. That certainly doesn't imply that every Saint out there has a feast day.. in fact the vast majority most likely do not. They are known only to God and the people whose lives they touched. Some have made such a great impact theologically, through their righteous deeds, etc that they are officially canonized by the Church though.

Canonization does NOT make someone a saint. It merely gives public recognition to the fact that they were one.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Origin is an example.

I'm not aware of any of the Churches having a feast day for Origen. Even the Oriental Orthodox (including the Copts) who do not hold to the council that condemned him do not venerate him in that manner and neither does the Church of the East ("Nestorians") who also do not accept the said council. It's possible that local veneration of him took place by some people in Alexandria because he was so popular and influential but I don't think he was ever "officially" regarded as a Saint of the Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree. The Holy Spirit does guide the Church to publicly proclaim and venerate people as saints however. That certainly doesn't imply that every Saint out there has a feast day.. in fact the vast majority most likely do not. They are known only to God and the people whose lives they touched. Some have made such a great impact theologically, through their righteous deeds, etc that they are officially canonized by the Church though.

Canonization does NOT make someone a saint. It merely gives public recognition to the fact that they were one.

Well, if they were one, then that must imply that they are something else now.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Sorry, I should have said "were/are" one. Obvioulsy one doesn't cease to be a Saint simply because they are "away from the body" and "present with the Lord".

 

[Rick Otto]

Let's temper our statements both to reflect reality as well as our opinions.
example:
"The Chruch doesn't declare people saints. Only God declares people saints."

While I know what you mean & agree with that, the statements at face value are false.

A good example:
"regarded as a Saint of the Church."
Now there is a phrase that puts it in perspective. The fact that I define church differently & disagree with canonization is beside the point, which is clarity.

Alright, I'm done.

 

[Standing Up]

I'm not aware of any of the Churches having a feast day for Origen. Even the Oriental Orthodox (including the Copts) who do not hold to the council that condemned him do not venerate him in that manner and neither does the Church of the East ("Nestorians") who also do not accept the said council. It's possible that local veneration of him took place by some people in Alexandria because he was so popular and influential but I don't think he was ever "officially" regarded as a Saint of the Church.

This gets more into definitions.

1) He's an example of a Christian who supposedly "fell away", became a heretic. If he was "born-again", can he be "unborn"?

2) All Christians are Saints, as Otto was implying. But as far as the Church (OO, EO, RC, P) are concerned, evidently he's not regarded as a Saint.

That's still my question with Polycarp. He taught the Easter issue completely differently than what came from Rome, so why is he a Saint and not, for example, Origin? And, his (Polycarp) teaching was declared anathema.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Origen was mentioned by name and St Polycarp wasn't. The issue of when to celebrate Pascha is a matter of Church discipline. In theory the Church could convene an eccumenical council and change the day we celebrate it on right now if it so felt the need. That wouldn't imply that those in the past who held to celebrating it on the old date (and who died before the council convened) would be anathmatized! It would only be those who failed to listen to the descision of the Church when they are presented with the findings of the council.

 

[Christos Anesti]

1) He's an example of a Christian who supposedly "fell away", became a heretic. If he was "born-again", can he be "unborn"?

The fact that he was anathematized doesn't imply that the Church is definitively proclaiming that he currently resides in hell. If thanks to the boundless mercy of the Lord I somehow make it into heaven I wouldn't be surprised at all if Origen and Evagrius are there and have a much nicer mansion then I do. When one is anathematized they are "offered up to the Lord". It's up to Him what to do with them. Origen and Evagrius were anathematized out of necessity because their errors became the basis of a whole systematic theology of later heretics. The Church needed to protect the purity of its teachings.

 

[silence_dogood]

I agree. The Holy Spirit does guide the Church to publicly proclaim and venerate people as saints however.

Then you're not agreeing. You're stating something entirely different and heretical.

 

[Christos Anesti]

You're stating something entirely different and heretical.

According to the tradition of Calvin?

 

[silence_dogood]

According to the tradition of Calvin?

According to the Bible.

All believers are declared saints by God when the are born again. There is no such thing as someone who is a saint because the church has decided they are, nor does the church have the authority to decide who is and isn't a saint.

 

[Christos Anesti]

There is no such thing as someone who is a saint because the church has decided they are

I agree. The Church recognizing the sainthood of someone doesn't make them a Saint. It's merely a recognition of the fact.

nor does the church have the authority to decide who is and isn't a saint.

I agree. See above.

According to the Bible.

According to the Bible as exegeted in a Calvinist / Reformed fashion . Not accorrding to the Bible as it is exegeted by the Church and its Fathers.

Forgive me but I'm in a snarky mood today.

 

[Christos Anesti]

<staff edit>

I've been known to hide out under bridges. Get it? Trolls, hiding under bridges.... oh never mind. Guess it wasn't as funny as it sounded to me at first.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sorry, I should have said "were/are" one. Obvioulsy one doesn't cease to be a Saint simply because they are "away from the body" and "present with the Lord".

Thanks for the clarification. That is what I thought you meant.