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Examples of Sacred Tradition

Deadworm

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Liberals quote Exodus 21:22-25 in support of abortion:

http://www.equip.org/article/exodus-2122-25-biblical-support-for-abortion/

They gain leverage for this dubious application of Exodus 21 from the fact that the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns abortion. But Didache 4:2 reads: "Thou shalt not procure an abortion." In its final form, the Didache ( full title: "The Teaching of the 12 Apostles") was written in the NT era around 95 AD. But the abortion prohibition lies in the Didache's Two Ways section which is much earlier, perhaps earlier than any NT writing! The crucial point is that we need Christian Tradition to compensate for a biblical oversight on this ano other vital moral and spiritual issues! Whatever your view on biblical inspiration, it remains indisputable that biblical revelation is incomplete with repsect to many big questions.
 
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W2L

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You follow your own traditions. You refuse to admit it, but that is no skin off my back.
How do i follow my own traditions if im following only scripture? Its not my word but is the word of the Lord and His apostles/prophets.
 
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Afra

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Question XII
Since God hath withdrawn his Visible Presence from us, his Pastors derive his Word from Scripture and from Traditions

But all the doctrines which are to be imparted to the faithful are contained in the word of God, which is divided into Scripture and Tradition. In the study of these matters, therefore, the pastors will spend their days and nights, keeping in mind the admonition of St. Paul to Timothy, which all whosoever have care of souls should consider as addressed to themselves. But that admonition is as follows:—Give attendance to reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine, for all Scripture divinely inspired is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in righteousness, that the man of God may he perfect, furnished to every good work.

Catholic Church. (1852). The Catechism of the Council of Trent. (T. A. Buckley, Trans.) (p. 9). London: George Routledge and Co.

And Trent says scripture and Tradition are two separate categories of the word of God. So yes, according to Trent your position is a category error. We are asking for an example of Tradition.
No, you are incorrect. Trent does not state or imply that what I wrote is a category error. That is completely false.

I provided several, specific, doctrinal statements that are not contained or taught by Sacred Scripture. The statements, thus not being contained or taught in Sacred Scripture, are Tradition.

You can quote as many Catholic documents as you wish, but you are in error because the Catholic Church clearly teaches that the canon is part of Sacred Tradition. Here you are:

Dei verbum

The words of the holy fathers witness to the presence of this living tradition, whose wealth is poured into the practice and life of the believing and praying Church. Through the same tradition the Church's full canon of the sacred books is known, and the sacred writings themselves are more profoundly understood and unceasingly made active in her; and thus God, who spoke of old, uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto all truth those who believe and makes the word of Christ dwell abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).

If I were you I would stick to using documents written by Protestants. You may soon find yourself among our ranks if you keep trying to understand the truth.
 
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Afra

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How do i follow my own traditions if im following only scripture? Its not my word but is the word of the Lord and His apostles/prophets.
Because many of the things that you believe are not taught in Sacred Scripture. You do not live in a vacuum. You do not simply sit in your room with a Bible and receive direct revelation from God as to the proper interpretation of Sacred Scripture. You obtain many of your ideas from other people, whether you admit that or not. Those are your traditions.
 
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W2L

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No, you are incorrect. I provided several, specific statements that are not contained or taught by Sacred Scripture. The statements, thus not being contained or taught in Sacred Scripture, are Tradition.

You can quote as many Catholic documents as you wish, but you are in error because the Catholic Church clearly teaches that the canon is part of Sacred Tradition. Here you are:

Dei verbum

The words of the holy fathers witness to the presence of this living tradition, whose wealth is poured into the practice and life of the believing and praying Church. Through the same tradition the Church's full canon of the sacred books is known, and the sacred writings themselves are more profoundly understood and unceasingly made active in her; and thus God, who spoke of old, uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto all truth those who believe and makes the word of Christ dwell abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).
Yes but the tradition was already established by the original church, before Catholicism even existed.
 
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W2L

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Because many of the things that you believe are not taught in Sacred Scripture. You do not live in a vacuum. You do not simply sit in your room with a Bible and receive direct revelation from God as to the proper interpretation of Sacred Scripture. You obtain many of your ideas from other people, whether you admit that or not. Those are your traditions.
I have relied on others for proper understanding of some scriptures, but that's the exception not the rule. Mostly i interpret it myself. Its not rocket science, right?
 
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Afra

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Yes but the tradition was already established by the original church, before Catholicism even existed.
Nonsense. The Catholic Church was personally founded by our Lord Jesus while he walked the Earth. St. Peter was the first Pope.
 
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Afra

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I have relied on others for proper understanding of some scriptures, but that's the exception not the rule. Mostly i interpret it myself. Its not rocket science, right?
And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
 
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W2L

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And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Relevance? Are you suggesting that i twist the scriptures, simply because i don't follow catholicism? Thats a stretch.

You cause me to remember and have joy in the fact that im free. Im not bound by tradition. Im free to seek the guidance of the Lord within. I dont need to have letters of commendation, i am an epistle written by God Himself.

Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[a]

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, [a]you abide in Him.

2 Corinthians 3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
 
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Afra

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Relevance? Are you suggesting that i twist the scriptures, simply because i don't follow catholicism? Thats a stretch.

You cause me to remember and have joy in the fact that im free. Im not bound by tradition. Im free to seek the guidance of the Lord within. I dont need to have letters of commendation, i am an epistle written by God Himself.

Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[a]

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, [a]you abide in Him.

2 Corinthians 3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
To be free one must have the truth. You do not.

The answer to your question is in the verse I gave you. I posted it for no other reason.

Now as to whether you are an epistle written by God, anyone can make that claim, but I will leave that up to you and God.

Every "you" in Sacred Scripture does not necessarily include W2L. You may make note of that for your studies.
 
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W2L

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To be free one must have the truth. You do not.

Every "you" in Sacred Scripture does not necessarily include W2L. You may make note of that for your studies.
As for the first comment above, let me lol, because im blessed. :) The truth will set us free. Jesus is the way truth and life. Are you saying i don't have the Lord? :) How wrong you are.

About your second comment. Sure i agree.
 
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Afra

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As for the first comment above, let me lol, because im blessed. :) The truth will set us free. Jesus is the way truth and life. Are you saying i don't have the Lord? :) How wrong you are.
I have no idea whether you have the Lord. I am not omniscient. I cannot read your mind. What I wrote is that you do not have the truth, and that is most certainly the case.
 
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W2L

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I have no idea whether you have the Lord. I am not omniscient. I cannot read your mind. What I wrote is that you do not have the truth, and that is most certainly the case.
If i have the Lord i have the truth. He is my truth. You say i dont have the truth, yet i have joy where there was once depression and anxiety, i have peace where there was great inner turmoil, i am trying my hardest to follow love because it is truth which abides forever. I am blessed, praise the Lord. I have the law of God written on my heart and in my mind, just as He promised. Who can be against me or condemn me? Its God who justifies me. The Lord is my shepherd, i shall not want. :)
 
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Eloy Craft

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Albion

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For the first several hundred years of the Catholic Church's existence the Bible did't even exist, because the Church had not yet compiled it.

That is really quite misleading. Every book that was finally compiled into the volume we call The Bible had long been in use in the churches and considered to be divinely inspired.
 
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Athanasius377

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No, you are incorrect. Trent does not state or imply that what I wrote is a category error. That is completely false.

I provided several, specific, doctrinal statements that are not contained or taught by Sacred Scripture. The statements, thus not being contained or taught in Sacred Scripture, are Tradition.

You can quote as many Catholic documents as you wish, but you are in error because the Catholic Church clearly teaches that the canon is part of Sacred Tradition. Here you are:

Dei verbum

The words of the holy fathers witness to the presence of this living tradition, whose wealth is poured into the practice and life of the believing and praying Church. Through the same tradition the Church's full canon of the sacred books is known, and the sacred writings themselves are more profoundly understood and unceasingly made active in her; and thus God, who spoke of old, uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto all truth those who believe and makes the word of Christ dwell abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).

If I were you I would stick to using documents written by Protestants. You may soon find yourself among our ranks if you keep trying to understand the truth.

Here is the relevant decree from the Concil of Trent:

[Page 17] SESSION THE FOURTH Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year MDXLVI. DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,--keeping this [Page 18] always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church. DECREE CONCERNING THE EDITION, AND THE USE, OF THE SACRED BOOKS Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,--considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,--ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever. Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; [Page 20] or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established. And wishing, as is just, to impose a restraint, in this matter, also on printers, who now without restraint,--thinking, that is, that whatsoever they please is allowed them,--print, without the license of ecclesiastical superiors, the said books of sacred Scripture, and the notes and comments upon them of all persons indifferently, with the press ofttimes unnamed, often even fictitious, and what is more grievous still, without the author's name; and also keep for indiscriminate sale books of this kind printed elsewhere; (this Synod) ordains and decrees, that, henceforth, the sacred Scripture, and especially the said old and vulgate edition, be printed in the most correct manner possible; and that it shall not be lawful for any one to print, or cause to be printed, any books whatever, on sacred matters, without the name of the author; nor to sell them in future, or even to keep them, unless they shall have been first examined, and approved of, by the Ordinary; under pain of the anathema and fine imposed in a canon of the last Council of Lateran: and, if they be Regulars, besides this examination and approval, they shall be bound to obtain a license also from their own superiors, who shall have examined the books according to the form of their own statutes. As to those who lend, or circulate them in manuscript, without their having been first examined, and approved of, they shall be subjected to the same penalties as printers: and they who shall have them in their possession or shall read them, shall, unless they discover the authors, be themselves regarded as the authors. And the said approbation of books of this kind shall be given in writing; and for this end it shall appear authentically at the beginning of the book, whether the book be written, or printed; and all this, that is, both the approbation and the examination, shall be done gratis, that so what ought to be approved, may be approved, and what ought to be condemned, may be condemned. Besides the above, wishing to repress that temerity, by which the words and sentences of sacred Scripture are turned and [Page 21] twisted to all sorts of profane uses, to wit, to things scurrilous, fabulous, vain, to flatteries, detractions, superstitions, impious and diabolical incantations, sorceries, and defamatory libels; (the Synod) commands and enjoins, for the doing away with this kind of irreverence and contempt, and that no one may hence forth dare in any way to apply the words of sacred Scripture to these and such like purposes; that all men of this description, profaners and violators of the word of God, be by the bishops restrained by the penalties of law, and others of their own appointment.


So it appears we have a problem. Is Trent the authority or Paul VI? Which is the authority? Scripture and Tradition are Equal. The position you are taking is the Orthodox position not the historic Roman position. Which in turn is proving the OP's point. Therefore, is Paul's exhortation ex cathedra? Is this the beginning of said tradition? Which is authoritative? Are you willing to overthrow the decree of an Ecumenical Council? And how would the average RC know? And for the record, I was one of your ranks. I grew up with the traditional Latin Mass, I remember the Baltimore Catechism very well. And according to your own doctrine (historic) you are still in a category error or Trent is wrong. I am sorry your sources are incoherent.
 
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Albion

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Well, as someone touched upon earlier, maybe even just a few chapters from the Gospel of John, or the sermon of Peter, may give sufficient knowledge for salvation. But we ought not be theological minimalists. If something is true, then it is in one sense "necessary". For example, the perpetual virginity of Mary. If it's true, then you ought to believe it, regardless of its effect on your salvation.

So you are saying that ones salvation depends upon believing that Mary remained a virgin all her life? I wonder why you think that would be the case.

And as has been pointed out before, Scripture is part of Tradition. Pitting Scripture against Tradition is like saying: "Is Michigan in the United States or in North America?" Sometimes, the answer is both.

Suppose I ask if Michigan is in the United States or in Wannaland, or both? That is the better way of putting the issue.

The preaching and teaching of the Apostles were inspired Tradition ("that which is to be handed down") before it was written down: that Jesus was the son of Mary, that he had twelve Apostles, that he preached in Judea and Galiliee, that he went to Jerusalem to die on a cross etc. Tradition came first, then Scripture.
That's the theory. And it is only theory. Scripture, on the other hand, is not speculation or theory; and as you noted before, all of us believe it to be divinely inspired.
 
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